Handbuilt Wheel Benefits

turkeytickler

Hi all

Plenty of people on this forum advocate handbuilt wheels over factory ones - paricularly around the £200 price point...

Can someone please explain what the benefits are?

I am looking at having a pair of Open Pros on Ultegra built with DB spokes - these come out at 1834g for the pair according to http://www2.bsn.de/Cycling/Wheels.html.

That is heavier than my R560s that I am currently using.

Does that sound right? Given that, and weight is I know only one factor, do you think I will get much benefit from an "upgrade" to a pair of handbuilts?

tia

tt

Smokin Joe

No.

Handbuilts have the advantage of readily available spokes and rims should you need them, otherwise it is just a bit of retro snobbery like steel frames.

geoff_ss

For me, the advantage of hand built wheels is that it's my hands that build 'em with spoking and other components I choose. I always lace my spokes but machine built wheels didn't used to - perhaps they do now.

Incidentally - just how are wheels built other than by hand? It must be some clever machine. A mate of mine used to build wheels at Raleigh a very long time ago; they weren't given very long to do each one.

Geoff

synchronicity

Yes robots build wheels. I have seen a picture, pretty amazing setup.

Previously, I was never a fan of handbuilt wheels, because they just don't look as cool as pre-built wheelsets. 8) But with all the miles my bikes see, I'm starting to see the advantages of wheelsets with higher spoke numbers, 28 or 32 for example. They're easier to true and they don't require truing as often either.

I'm just about to pick up my first ever set of hand built wheels made with mavic open pro rims with 28 spokes.

I've had my fair share of rim & spoke failures with exotic wheels... first with my HED J2 rear wheel where multiple spokes pulled through the rim (luckily I was ascending at the time... but I was almost at the top of the climb when it happened :shock: ). I have broken many spokes with my zipp 303 wheelset. A few weeks ago, I went riding with an almost new spinergy stealth wheelset, and the rim bulged out on both sides.... It just ruins the riding experience when you have to come home early. *sigh*

geoff_ss

synchronicity wrote:

Yes robots build wheels. I have seen a picture, pretty amazing setup.

Previously, I was never a fan of handbuilt wheels, because they just don't look as cool as pre-built wheelsets. 8) But with all the miles my bikes see, I'm starting to see the advantages of wheelsets with higher spoke numbers, 28 or 32 for example. They're easier to true and they don't require truing as often either.

I'm just about to pick up my first ever set of hand built wheels made with mavic open pro rims with 28 spokes.

I'

... and I thought I was being brave with my new wheels, trusting to 32 spokes each. I've never used fewer than 36 spokes/wheel in the past and 40 for tandem rears. However the Mavic OpenPro rims I'm used are lovely - flat, round and stiff right from the beginning. I'm hoping for long life with DT spokes and 105 hubs.

A ,lot of our cycling used to be done away from any help and I like the feeling of being able to carry out my own repairs in case of problems far from home.

Geoff

kevin_stephens

turkeytickler wrote:

I am looking at having a pair of Open Pros on Ultegra built with DB spokes - these come out at 1834g for the pair
tt

I have this build (from Geoff Smith in Bolton) on my bike, and they seem to be a great ride (28 spokes) on my Ridley Compact with Ultegra, total bike weight 18 lb. But I am tempted to buy a pair of Easton EA 90 SLX wheels for best to reduce bike weight by around 1lb for sportives etc (I weigh 145-150 lb), keeping the hand builts for winter and eventualy a dedicated winter bike.

Am I likely to notice much difference in ride or handling with the bling wheels?

Also I have heard weight reduction on wheels makes much more difference than on the frame. I guess this is due to rotational weight/momentum - but surely most weight reduction on factory wheels is on the hubs rather than rims so defeating the object?

Any comments?

Spudboy

I've got Open Pros on Record hubs with Sapim CX-ray spokes. Believe me, these are light, stiff, comfortable and repairable. I'm a heavy rider so fragile, flexy wheels get found out fast!

The only reason to spend more on low profile factory wheels has to be the bling factor as I concede that handbuilts look more traditional (not gonna get that gold Shamal look with handbuilts!!)

Deep-section wheels are another matter tho.

Tom Butcher

What about deep sections though - do wheelbuilders offer a realistic alternative to factory built deep section wheels ?

dennisn

Handbuilts for me. I want wheels I can trust. I want wheels that if I break a spoke, I
can still ride. I want wheels I don't have to take to the repair shop or send halfway
around the world to be trued. I want wheels that I can build and fix, with easy to get parts. I don't want to spend a thousand dollars on a pair of wheels that are made up
of 200 dollars in parts and labor and 800 dollars in bling and advertising. One thing I
don't understand is "why does everyone talk about all of the lightweight this and
lightweight that wheelsets and still buy clinchers"???

Dennis Noward

aracer

Tom Butcher wrote:

What about deep sections though - do wheelbuilders offer a realistic alternative to factory built deep section wheels ?

Depends on the wheelbuilder. I've got some handbuilt deep section wheels with the AC 420 rims, and a wheelbuilder certainly can get these (or the slightly shallower ones which are much the same as used on many of the factory wheels) - it's just a question of whether they're willing to, but it's far from impossible.

aracer

dennisn wrote:

One thing I
don't understand is "why does everyone talk about all of the lightweight this and
lightweight that wheelsets and still buy clinchers"???

Because, as has been pointed out to you on here before, most of us aren't fans of all the hassle which goes with using tubs (and before you suggest it's not more hassle, it is and you know it). In any case, unless you're doing an event with support, or aren't worried about making it home again, clinchers are lighter by the time you've factored in carrying a whole spare tyre rather than just a tube.

aracer

Kevin Stephens wrote:

Also I have heard weight reduction on wheels makes much more difference than on the frame. I guess this is due to rotational weight/momentum - but surely most weight reduction on factory wheels is on the hubs rather than rims so defeating the object?

That's largely a load of rubbish. The only time it makes a difference is when accelerating, and you don't actually do a lot of that on a bike. Maybe a marginal advantage for crit racing, but even there, if you do the analysis you'll find that most of your power is still going into moving air rather than accelerating, and lighter rims will make a tiny difference to the overall system inertia. For climbing hills, which is where most of us worry about weight, it makes no difference whether the weight is in the tyres, the rims, the frame or your beer gut.

robbarker

If you build your own wheels, you gain the confidence and ability to maintain them. That, plus the inherent satisfaction, is the advantage for me.

aracer

Given the other thread on here, the advantage is that you can get just one wheel, or if the rim is damaged you can replace just the rim.

Morpeth

playing with a similar thing myself. Race on Boras so these would be training/non points races;

Ksyrium ES Vs Shamal Ultra Vs DT240's (or Tune Mig/Mag) on DT RR1.1 with CX Rays.

Any views?

aracer

Go for the handbuilts - though the DT rims don't seem to get good reports, so go for trusty Open Pros instead (that or maybe http://www.halorims.com/HaloNew/mercury.html or http://www.halorims.com/HaloNew/aerorage.html for something a bit different).

Gussio

+1 for Open Pros. I have mine built around Ultegra hubs with DT spokes. No complaints whatsoever.

Morpeth

how much does an OP weigh?

davecooper

I have had spokes go miles from home on factory built low spoke count wheels and the bike was virtually unrideable afterwards. I think it depends on the kind of riding you do and the kind of roads you do it on. I ride on many roads that look like they haven't seen a lick of tarmac since the old king died, if ever, so I just want the peace of mind that even if I do get a breakage, the wheel will remain rideable, hence my having a set of 32 laced open pros ready for the rebuilt bike. I am also upsizing to 25mm tyres at the same time, again to tame some of the road nasties out there.

Gussio

Morpeth wrote:

how much does an OP weigh?

425g

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/listi ... ?type=rims

Morpeth

many thanks

northpole

My bike has factory built Dura-ace wheels and I must admit I was a bit sceptical about the low spoke count.

To-date however, I've had no problems whatsoever - they remain as true as the day I got the bike. Long may it continue that way!!

Peter

blorg

I've had very good experience with the entry-level Bontrager Selects which are paired spoke, 20 front, 24 back. I crashed head on hard enough to bend my fork steerer and crack my frame and the front wheel didn't go out of true (since transferred to another bike and has been rock solid for a few thousand km.)

I also have a hand-built Open Pro, 32 spoke on the back of my tourer/commuter and it is certainly a good wheel, but they are by no means invincible and do require truing often enough (certainly more than the Bontragers.) Had a CXP33 rim before that one. It was very reliable, maybe even more so than the Open Pro, but was taken out by a car driving into the back of it!

I think the main advantage of traditional is not necessarily reliability as such but more the idea that a single spoke failure will not ruin the wheel entirely. I had a completely loose spoke for quite a while there and only noticed as it was my magnet spoke and the magnet was moving around.

geoff_ss

blorg wrote:

I've had very good experience with the entry-level Bontrager Selects which are paired spoke, 20 front, 24 back. I crashed head on hard enough to bend my fork steerer and crack my frame and the front wheel didn't go out of true (since transferred to another bike and has been rock solid for a few thousand km.)

I also have a hand-built Open Pro, 32 spoke on the back of my tourer/commuter and it is certainly a good wheel, but they are by no means invincible and do require truing often enough (certainly more than the Bontragers.) Had a CXP33 rim before that one. It was very reliable, maybe even more so than the Open Pro, but was taken out by a car driving into the back of it!

I think the main advantage of traditional is not necessarily reliability as such but more the idea that a single spoke failure will not ruin the wheel entirely. I had a completely loose spoke for quite a while there and only noticed as it was my magnet spoke and the magnet was moving around.

I'm sure factory built wheels are very reliable but the thought of their being so difficult to repair means they are unsuitable for the kind of use I want. Most of my cycling is alone or with my wife on quiet, hilly, and often bumpy lanes with no support. Sophisticated wheelsets are designed for racing when there is likely to be support not too far away and the only problem is likely to be forced retirement from the event at worst.

Pedal cycles are beautifully simple devices and one of their great advantages from my point of view is their simple repair and maintenance. It's bad enough that I can't even fix my car these days - I don't need that on my bike

Your crash experience is quite common. Wheels seem impervious to those sorts of incident but frames rarely are. In my experience (with steel frame/forks) forks usually survive as well. Pity really, because the frame is the most expensive component to repair

Geoff

aracer

blorg wrote:

I also have a hand-built Open Pro, 32 spoke on the back of my tourer/commuter and it is certainly a good wheel, but they are by no means invincible and do require truing often enough (certainly more than the Bontragers.)

That does I suppose illustrate the only real problem with handbuilts which has been mentioned here - that quality of build can be variable (though the solution to that is simple - throw a bit more money at it and get one of the people with a very good reputation to build your wheels). My 10 year old Open Pros on Ultegra have never seen a spoke key since they were built, and still running perfectly true.

nom de plum

How much extra maintenance do handbuilt wheels require? I'm thinking mainly about the hubs... I have several sets of factory wheels and the bearings are practically zero maintenance. I've heard that shimano groupset hubs need to be stripped down on a regular basis.

Pirahna

Hub maintenance depends on the hub. For example, any Campag hub will need the bearing re-greasing from time to time, regardless if it's in a factory built wheel or normal hub. For stuff like Mavic that have cartridge bearings you just wait for the bearing to wear out then replace it.

aracer

I've not touched my Ultegra hubs in 10 years, and whilst they don't go out in the worst of weather, I've not touched the wheels on my winter bike which does in several years either (note to self - remember to have a look at those sometime soon after riding through wheel high floods with them last year!)

wildmoustache

nom de plum wrote:

How much extra maintenance do handbuilt wheels require? I'm thinking mainly about the hubs... I have several sets of factory wheels and the bearings are practically zero maintenance. I've heard that shimano groupset hubs need to be stripped down on a regular basis.

factory wheels often use the same hubs than handbuilders use - or identical internals but slightly different shells for cosmetic reason. e.g. shimano, campagnolo

my main issue with handbuilts is that the build quality is more variable than factory builts ... even from reputedly good wheelbuilders IME.

robbarker

I happen have just built some wheels with a pair of lightly used open pro rims on some 9 speed Ultegra hubs I've had, lying around for ages. They will take 8, 9 or 10 speed Shimano cassettes. 32 spokes x3, bult with a tensiometer. I can supply a the graphical spreadshet of spoke tensions with the wheels to show they are tightly and evenly tensioned. Send me a private message if you're interested.

acorn_user

Hand built wheels don't have to be 36 hole Ultegra hubs on Open Pro rims!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/18989508@N00
Wheel builders can get hold of Zipp and Reynolds carbon rims, and build those up with Tune, White or DT hubs, often for less than the Zipp factory wheels.

Also, a lot of factory wheels are actually built by hand (e.g. the Shimano ones). And some of the wheels assumed to be hand built because they are the traditional 36 spoke wheels are built by machine.

Also, I saw a Bontrager Select destroy itself over the course of a 1.5 hour race on Sunday. Would not be my choice