cat 4 race speed - training advice

darnjen

help - me and a few friends have decided to have a crack at racing (crit) we are currently training for a closed curcuit (castle combe 25 mile race)

can any one tell us what speed we should be looking to train at so we can hold the wheels on the day !! also - obviously what is the average race speed on the day

(we are all in our 30's and dads)

we have 4 more week to train ........

thanks DT

Alex_Simmons/RST

Average speed is not always a good indicator of how hard a crit can be. Some of the hardest races can be relatively slow (once the sorting out period is over an done with).

Typically crits involve lots and lots of surging/accelerations and fast hard sections combined with periods of recovery in the draft of others. Sometimes you are on the rivet the whole way.

To be able to ride successfully, you'll need to train for those surges and accelerations as well as have good TT power (speed). You'll also need to be able to do them in a bunch at speed, so some practicing riding in close proximity to others will be valuable.

I'd suggest doing 3 types of workouts each week between now and then:

1 day x longer hardish efforts of 20+ minutes x 2 or 3 (near your time trial pace)

1 day x shorter hard efforts of 3-4 minutes x 5 (harder than TT pace, at end of effort you couldn't go much further and breathing really hard)

1 day x sprint efforts of 10-30 seconds x 8 with plenty of rest in between (just give these maximum effort and mix up the durations)

Add a standard longer ride or two each week and it should help out. Or if you don't have that many days to get out each week then combine the sprints into a longer ride and do the shorter efforts on a home trainer.

Good luck!

Bronzie

Speed for a 4th cat race will be around 23mph average but I agree with Alex - it's the repeated accelerations in a tight circuit race that are the real killers.

On the day, try and stay in the first 10-15 riders at all times, but without doing too much on the front. It will take a lot of concentration, effort and jockeying for position especially around the corners. The further back you are in the bunch, the more you have to slow for the corners and the more you have to accelerate out the other side...........the concertina effect is a killer.

Tom Butcher

Darnjen - be interesting to know what the background of your group is - unusual for a group of friends to decide to race if you aren't already out training with club/racing cyclists - or are you ? Anyway good luck with it.

terongi

I'm also thinking of starting circuit racing this season (weekday evenings at Hillingdon), but I am not with a club.

I train with a couple of mates. We all have families and all the club runs in our area (North London - Herts) go out at 9 ish on weekends and don't come back until lunch time.

So we can spend the weekend days with our families, we leave at 7.15am and get back at 10.30 am after 80-90 km and a coffee.

It's a shame there are no clubs which go out that early. I bet there are loads of other people in my position.

I hope not being in a club won't put me at a disadvantage in the races.

Ste_S

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Average speed is not always a good indicator of how hard a crit can be. Some of the hardest races can be relatively slow (once the sorting out period is over an done with).

Typically crits involve lots and lots of surging/accelerations and fast hard sections combined with periods of recovery in the draft of others. Sometimes you are on the rivet the whole way.

To be able to ride successfully, you'll need to train for those surges and accelerations as well as have good TT power (speed). You'll also need to be able to do them in a bunch at speed, so some practicing riding in close proximity to others will be valuable.

I'd suggest doing 3 types of workouts each week between now and then:

1 day x longer hardish efforts of 20+ minutes x 2 or 3 (near your time trial pace)

1 day x shorter hard efforts of 3-4 minutes x 5 (harder than TT pace, at end of effort you couldn't go much further and breathing really hard)

1 day x sprint efforts of 10-30 seconds x 8 with plenty of rest in between (just give these maximum effort and mix up the durations)

Add a standard longer ride or two each week and it should help out. Or if you don't have that many days to get out each week then combine the sprints into a longer ride and do the shorter efforts on a home trainer.

Good luck!

What do you think of the Tabata Protocol ? I haven't heard about it until i saw a post on weight weenies.

I've just started doing 60s/50s/40s/30s/20s/10s type sprint intervals. Would it be worth swopping to Tabata type intervals ?

Bronzie

terongi wrote:

I hope not being in a club won't put me at a disadvantage in the races.

No reason why it should really. As long as you are happy/confident riding in a group, can hold your line in the corners and have done the necessary training you should be fine at entry level.

Most of our club rides are poor training other than for clocking up miles over the winter. I tend to not bother with club runs during the race season unless I want an easy recovery ride. Main thing is that you have others to train with to maintain motivation and practice through and off.

Kléber

Give your first race a go but try to be relaxed about it and treat it as a learning experience. Of course you want to do well but there is a lot to discover, about racing and training, so view your first race as the beginning of something long-term. Enjoy it!

Alex_Simmons/RST

Ste_S wrote:

What do you think of the Tabata Protocol ? I haven't heard about it until i saw a post on weight weenies.

I've just started doing 60s/50s/40s/30s/20s/10s type sprint intervals. Would it be worth swopping to Tabata type intervals ?

It depends on what you are trying to achieve.

In Tabata there is minimal rest between efforts, and the intensity of the ON portion is such that the average power over a set is > 100% VO2 Max training levels, hence you won't last very long. It's more of an anaerobic workout with a neuromuscular twist.

If it floats you boat, give it a try but it'll be barf inducing if done right.

Sprints like I described are different, they are more of a neuromuscular workout with an anaerobic twist. The longer the sprint, the more the balance swings to an anaerobic effort.

Sometimes it's easy to get caught up with all sorts of fancy interval protocols. None are a magic bullet. Best to keep 'em simple, achieveable and specific to targeting the desired physiological adaptations. I'd suggest using these various protocols simply as variety and a change up when other training gets a bit stale.

Ste_S

I'm training for pretty much the same thing as the original poster. I'm reasonably happy with the rest of my training, but need to deal with surges in speed a little bit better, most notably sprinting out of hairpin corners (and recovering quickly).

jamesblodgett

You and your friends might want to get some beater bikes and set up a 6 turn (irregular hexagon) crit on a grassy field and practice cornering and sprinting while you are bumping and banging handlebars. Elbow and knee pads are a good idea for these sessions. Keep you hands tucked in when you fall.

Don't use a soccer field though. Footballlers are a bit possessive of their grass. :roll:

I have people depending on my income, so I am not allowed to do crits anymore, unless I am sure my wife won't find out.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Ste_S wrote:

I'm training for pretty much the same thing as the original poster. I'm reasonably happy with the rest of my training, but need to deal with surges in speed a little bit better, most notably sprinting out of hairpin corners (and recovering quickly).

Well, practice hard accelerations from low speed.

oldwelshman

If you position yourself close enough up the field for the corners and pick correct line you should not always have to spring out of the corner.
Even if you misjudge it, don't panic, let some one else sprint and get on their wheel 8)

mr-ed

Castle Coombe is pretty undulating I think so you want to be able to give a good effort up some short climbs. TBH I've only just got into racing myself but I'm only 19 so probally a bit easier for me. I decided to do one with four weeks to go as it was suggested to me. I didn't have a clue what i was in for but on my second attempt I did a lot better.

I increased my mileage but still did intervals. However I think now more importantly just working on sustaining a good speed and throwing in some sprints is better. I found the race speed once the 4/3/2+ cats got together was at least 23mph+ my average for the day being 21. I worked on a road which was similar to the one I raced on (as it was 50 miles away), just working on keeping my speed over 22mph and each time the road lifted I pushed hard to keep my speed up. I read somebody's training thing in CW about make your training like races so thats what I did.

Also its been pointed out to me that my position on the bike is quite high so thats my next thing to work on, which I've actually found easier by changing my saddle position.

Mark Alexander

I'm surprised that Cat 4 races ave 23mph :shock:

Haynes

Chances are itll be pretty windy and hard work. Dont do any more work than you have to as youll need to save it for the last 1/2 a lap. Work towards the front before the corners so you can drift back. Although you will be maxing out in the sprints just tell yourself that the pace will ease up if only you can hang on a bit longer. The first couple of laps might well be faster than your comfortable with but it should ease up as everyone settles down, so again hang on in there.

If you can finish with the bunch youve done well. If you can finish 1/2 a lap behind and cross the finish shaking your head and muttering 'theyve all done this before' and 'surely theyre not really 4th cats' and 'jeez, it doesnt look this hard on the telly' youve still done well. If you find it dead easy and as the finish looms have to ask 'so what happens now?' its time to go blasting off the front to win it.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

kourou

@Terongi - If you live in North London / Herts you may find our club (London Phoenix) convenient - there are a lot of people in the same boat as you. Our members (male and for a cycling club a pretty good female represention too) are all over London, though there does seem to be a concentration in North and North-East London.

http://www.londonphoenix.co.uk

We train on Tuesday evenings with laps around Regents Park which start off relatively easy for helf an hour (with a bit of chat) and then for another half hour / 45 minutes groups evolve at different speeds. These sessions may be especially handy if you work in Central London. Our monthly meets are usually in pubs in Central London too.

I have recently start crit racing too, and find the Tuesday session ideal practice for riding in groups, raising my pace, making/following/bridging to attacks, etc. You wouldn't think it but the inner circle of Regents Park is very similar to a lot of Crit courses - a bit of descending, a reasonable climb, about 1-1.5km long etc...

On weekends we don't have formal club runs, but rather rely on our club forum to hook up with nearby people (we even have a Google map showing who lives nearby!). There are always people out doing something in different locations around and outside London, and many are keen on early starts for the same reason as you. All you have to do is post and see who can make it...

Come along on Tuesday evening (we generally all turn up around 6.30) if you can - just hook on as we go past (some of us should be wearing red/yellow/black London Phoenix kit) and let someone on the back know you are new / visiting. Afterwards a few usually go for coffee by the tennis courts for a chat. You can also join on our website, and you'll get a guest login to our forum.

We are also running our Easter Classic (http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/london-phoenix-club-inaugurates-easter-classic-14985) on Easter Monday, would get you some great miles in your legs. From the description of your training, you'd probably be fine completing the long route!

When you are ready to race there are a few of us there of varying abilities from winners to keen losers! Come and say hello even if you don't end up joining... If you fancy an alliance to work as a team then we may be interested :-)

We also do a lot of sportives, mountain biking, cyclo-cross etc if you're interested.

terongi wrote:

I'm also thinking of starting circuit racing this season (weekday evenings at Hillingdon), but I am not with a club.

I train with a couple of mates. We all have families and all the club runs in our area (North London - Herts) go out at 9 ish on weekends and don't come back until lunch time.

So we can spend the weekend days with our families, we leave at 7.15am and get back at 10.30 am after 80-90 km and a coffee.

It's a shame there are no clubs which go out that early. I bet there are loads of other people in my position.

I hope not being in a club won't put me at a disadvantage in the races.

bahzob

Did first ever road race Thruxton last weekend and can fully endorse concertina effect on corners and need, if you get it wrong, to put in some pretty hard accelerations to keep in touch.

Also gobsmacked by the speed even humble 4 cats can do. Despite being a tad windy we averaged 39kph for just short of an hour and were hitting 58kph down the straight with the wind behind us.

Alex_Simmons/RST

How did you go?

bahzob

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

How did you go?

If the question is for me then the answer is pretty well until learned a couple of important lessons: check at the start how many laps the race will be (as it may differ from what was published) and once racing keep a count of how many laps you've done. I did neither so was surprised when I slowed to adjust a wobbly helmet to hear a bell and see the group disappear into the distance....

more stuff here:
http://mr-miff-on-tour.blogspot.com/2008/03/first-road-race.html

Still will have another go this weekend.

Alex_Simmons/RST

bahzob wrote:

If the question is for me then the answer is pretty well until learned a couple of important lessons:

Nice work and good report. A pretty good start to racing if you ask me!

Not sure about wearing a music earpiece while racing though You need all your senses focussed on the race, lest you be a danger to yourself or others, but importantly so you can know what's going on tactically in a race and make sure you don't miss key moves when they happen.

Keep up the good work. 8)

dennisn

Average speed in a race is something of a moot point in that it doesn't matter if you
averaged 20 mph or 30 mph. What matters is the winner not the speed. Some races are
very fast paced with lots of accelerations, especially at corners, others can be slow
and almost boring, some are a combination of both. There are races where a break gets away and team members of the guys in the break will hold back the chase groups by
literally slowing down and blocking. Your worst enemy at these races is, as many have said before me, the accelerations at the front. This is a very effective form of blowing a rider or two off the back and this being your first race I would expect you to be one of them(happens to everyone). It usually happens so quickly that you don't realize what has
happened until it's too late. Catching up(getting back on) is usually not going to happen
and try as you may the break will only pull further away. At this point your best bet is to
fall back and work with the next group. Don't mean to sound like I don't think you will be
able to "hang" with the leaders but they have more race experience than you so treat
the whole thing as a learning process and after a few races you'll start to see "how it
goes", so to speak.

Dennis Noward

Bronzie

Bahzob - good race report - like the annotated graph a lot!

The dotted yellow line is average power I presume - 300W for an hour road race is pretty good going I think.

PS Agree with Alex about listening to music in a race - could end in tears if you fish someone off because you didn't hear them coming up behind you in a blindspot

mr-ed

bahzob wrote:

If the question is for me then the answer is pretty well until learned a couple of important lessons: check at the start how many laps the race will be (as it may differ from what was published) and once racing keep a count of how many laps you've done. I did neither so was surprised when I slowed to adjust a wobbly helmet to hear a bell and see the group disappear into the distance....

more stuff here:
http://mr-miff-on-tour.blogspot.com/2008/03/first-road-race.html

Still will have another go this weekend.

That graphs interesting, what HRM are you using to get that?

I was at Thruxton too and on the lap count would have been easier if the boards were bigger!

bahzob

mr-ed wrote:

That graphs interesting, what HRM are you using to get that?

I was at Thruxton too and on the lap count would have been easier if the boards were bigger!

Graphs come from a Powertap downloaded onto Training Peaks WKO+

There were boards?? Another lesson learned.

terongi

kourou wrote:

@Terongi - If you live in North London / Herts you may find our club (London Phoenix) convenient

We train on Tuesday evenings with laps around Regents Park which start off relatively easy for helf an hour (with a bit of chat) and then for another half hour / 45 minutes groups evolve at different speeds. These sessions may be especially handy if you work in Central London. Our monthly meets are usually in pubs in Central London too.

I have recently start crit racing too, and find the Tuesday session ideal practice for riding in groups, raising my pace, making/following/bridging to attacks, etc. You wouldn't think it but the inner circle of Regents Park is very similar to a lot of Crit courses - a bit of descending, a reasonable climb, about 1-1.5km long etc...

Come along on Tuesday evening (we generally all turn up around 6.30) if you can - just hook on as we go past (some of us should be wearing red/yellow/black London Phoenix kit) and let someone on the back know you are new / visiting.

I went to Regents Park inner circle last night at about 7.10 and found a fast group going round in the dark. I did ask the guy at the back if I could join. He was very friendly, but the pace of the group was not conducive to conversation. It looked like quite a well organised through-and-off line. The speed was about 40kph, which seemed quite high for me. I could only manage about 4 laps before I lost contact with the back of the group. Going at that speed in the dark was quite alarming.

Was this your club, Kourou? maybe I will come along next week after the clocks go forward.

jamesblodgett

Mark Alexander wrote:

I'm surprised that Cat 4 races ave 23mph :shock:

It's not the average speed that's the problem; it's the +30mph surges that really take it out of your legs. 23mph is pretty normal for Cat4 around here.

oldwelshman

jamesblodgett wrote:

Mark Alexander wrote:

I'm surprised that Cat 4 races ave 23mph :shock:

It's not the average speed that's the problem; it's the +30mph surges that really take it out of your legs. 23mph is pretty normal for Cat4 around here.

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