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Two year ban recommended for Di Luca

iainf72iainf72 Posts: 15,782
edited March 2008 in Pro race
http://sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?slug=re ... &type=lgns

How can this be? There are only dopers on Astana, aren't there?
Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
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Posts

  • afx237viafx237vi Posts: 12,630
    Wow, that came out of the blue. Old man Torri doesn't like to let go once he gets his teeth into something, eh?

    Does this mean Schleck Jr is a grand tour winner now?
  • iainf72iainf72 Posts: 15,782
    afx237vi wrote:
    Wow, that came out of the blue. Old man Torri doesn't like to let go once he gets his teeth into something, eh?

    Does this mean Schleck Jr is a grand tour winner now?

    It would appear so. Assuming a judge backs it up.

    Does this mean Simoni is going down too?
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • KléberKléber Posts: 6,842
    Looks like The Killer's dead.

    Just when you think things can't get worse, that every grand tour winner is associated with a doping scandal, now we have a GT winner who could be associated with two scandals at the same time.
  • iainf72iainf72 Posts: 15,782
    Ahhh, 2 down, 2 to go.

    Next up Ricco and Simoni.

    http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/06/ ... Doping.php
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • Dave_1Dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    there was a time when Argentin was Italy's only decent rider 1985-1993..then Italy took over..
  • LangerDanLangerDan Posts: 6,132
    Dave_1 wrote:
    there was a time when Argentin was Italy's only decent rider 1985-1993..then Italy took over..

    Gianni Bugno will be disappointed to hear you say that.....
    'This week I 'ave been mostly been climbing like Basso - Shirley Basso.'
  • Dave_1Dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    LangerDan wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    there was a time when Argentin was Italy's only decent rider 1985-1993..then Italy took over..

    Gianni Bugno will be disappointed to hear you say that.....

    but Bugno was nowhere until TDF 1988. ARgentin was their best rider from 1984-88. Bugno won a stage of 88 TDF...that's where I first heard of him. Sarroni never won much after 83...and Moser's 84 was good...but not without much controversy..Akam's Moser's museli story , De Vlamink's threats to tell how Moser won Milan San Remo 84 and then the Fignon 84 Giro theft, Conconni etc. Argentin was there only decent rider for 5 or so year from 85. But from 1990...Italy takes over...strange
  • Will LPR or maybe Liquigas be uninvited for the Giro now?
  • KléberKléber Posts: 6,842
    Saunier-Duval willl look dodgy too if Simoni and Ricco get in trouble.

    As for the Italians from 1990 onwards, it is obvious, they discovered Evening Primrose Oil and went on to dominate the sport. But don't forget Maurizio Fondriest, whose winning ways began before 1990.
  • DaveyLDaveyL Posts: 5,167
    Wasn't that guy Miguel Whatsisname, er, Spanish?
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • andypandyp Posts: 8,321
    Kléber wrote:
    As for the Italians from 1990 onwards, it is obvious, they discovered Evening Primrose Oil and went on to dominate the sport. But don't forget Maurizio Fondriest, whose winning ways began before 1990.
    The first incidents of Evening Primrose Oil were in Belgium and Holland, where there were up to 15 unexplained deaths of healthy young riders. How come neither the Dutch or the Belgians dominated in the way the Italians did?

    I ought to make it clear here that I'm not saying the Italians weren't benefiting from the use of Evening Primrose Oil but explaining away their success simply by this is an over simplification I think. They weren't the only nation with access to the latest advances in medical science.
  • KléberKléber Posts: 6,842
    The PDM team was very dominant, it had several riders capable of top-10 places in the Tour GC. Panasonic too was a very strong team. But they soon lost their advantage. I think sports science progressed and the sports science/ pharmacology knowledge developed by some in Italy was put to good/sinister effect, what was experimental in Holland soon became industrial in Italy.
  • iainf72iainf72 Posts: 15,782
    Kléber wrote:
    The PDM team was very dominant, it had several riders capable of top-10 places in the Tour GC.

    Wasn't it terrible when the entire team was struck down with a stomach bug?
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • Dave_1Dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    andyp wrote:
    Kléber wrote:
    As for the Italians from 1990 onwards, it is obvious, they discovered Evening Primrose Oil and went on to dominate the sport. But don't forget Maurizio Fondriest, whose winning ways began before 1990.
    The first incidents of Evening Primrose Oil were in Belgium and Holland, where there were up to 15 unexplained deaths of healthy young riders. How come neither the Dutch or the Belgians dominated in the way the Italians did?

    I ought to make it clear here that I'm not saying the Italians weren't benefiting from the use of Evening Primrose Oil but explaining away their success simply by this is an over simplification I think. They weren't the only nation with access to the latest advances in medical science.

    Andy, the thing is...it went from Argentin as their sole representative at the top 1985-1989 as Sarroni and Moaser were in decline by 85...and then from 1990 onwards Italains dominate everything..and we know what else began then, my only guess is there were more Italians up for it or more of it available? Definitely better drs in Italy. Or team Drs got entire teams organised early in that new era?
  • timoid.timoid. Posts: 3,133
    Dave_1 wrote:
    andyp wrote:
    Kléber wrote:
    As for the Italians from 1990 onwards, it is obvious, they discovered Evening Primrose Oil and went on to dominate the sport. But don't forget Maurizio Fondriest, whose winning ways began before 1990.
    The first incidents of Evening Primrose Oil were in Belgium and Holland, where there were up to 15 unexplained deaths of healthy young riders. How come neither the Dutch or the Belgians dominated in the way the Italians did?

    I ought to make it clear here that I'm not saying the Italians weren't benefiting from the use of Evening Primrose Oil but explaining away their success simply by this is an over simplification I think. They weren't the only nation with access to the latest advances in medical science.

    Andy, the thing is...it went from Argentin as their sole representative at the top 1985-1989 as Sarroni and Moaser were in decline by 85...and then from 1990 onwards Italains dominate everything..and we know what else began then, my only guess is there were more Italians up for it or more of it available? Definitely better drs in Italy. Or team Drs got entire teams organised early in that new era?


    Its a bit of a weird era you're picking Dave. Italy has been pretty succesful over the years, with a steady stream flowing through.

    Italy had
    - 40s - Bartali/Coppi
    - 40s/early 50s - Coppi/Magni
    - Late 50s - Baldini
    - Late 50s/early 60s - Defilippis
    - Mid 60s - mid 70s - Gimondi, Bitossi
    - Mid 70s - mid 80s - Moser
    - Early-mid 80s - Saronni, Battaglin
    - Mid 80s - early 90s - Argentin, Fondriest
    - Early 90s - Chiappucci/Bugno

    There are only a few great champions at a time, but they are always some.

    In terms of big races (post war) the following were won by Italians:

    Tour: 48, 49, 52, 60, 65, 98 (only one win post EPO)
    Giro: 46-49, 51-53, 55, 57-58, 61-63, 65-67, 69, 75-76, 79, 81, 83-84, 86, 90-91, 97-07 (If anything EPO screwed their small climbers here)
    Vuelta: 56, 68, 81, 90 (where is the post 90s boom here?)

    MSR: 46-50, 52-53, 70, 74, 80, 83-84, 90-91, 93-94, 96, 02-03, 05-06
    Roubaix: 49 (t), 50-51, 66, 78-80, 95, 98-99,
    RVV: 49-51, 67, 90, 94, 01-02, 07
    LBL: 65, 82, 85-87, 91, 97-98, 00, 02, 04, 07,
    Lombardy: 46-50, 52-55, 57-58, 61, 64, 66-67, 70, 73, 75, 77-78, 83, 86-87, 95-96, 99, 01-07

    The big upsurge is in the 00s if anything. And we all know that all the really nasty dopers were in the 90s. Picking the late 80s is completely arbitrary and stastically meaningless. Even if it wasn't the best time for Italian cycling, they still on races (1 GT/ 5 Monuments)


    Also
    Bugno was pretty decent in the late 80s, winning stages in the Tour, Giro and Romandie and some decent smaller races. He may have got on the primrose oil in the 90s, but he was still an outstanding rider to begin with.
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • Dave_1Dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    timoid. wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    andyp wrote:
    Kléber wrote:
    As for the Italians from 1990 onwards, it is obvious, they discovered Evening Primrose Oil and went on to dominate the sport. But don't forget Maurizio Fondriest, whose winning ways began before 1990.
    The first incidents of Evening Primrose Oil were in Belgium and Holland, where there were up to 15 unexplained deaths of healthy young riders. How come neither the Dutch or the Belgians dominated in the way the Italians did?

    I ought to make it clear here that I'm not saying the Italians weren't benefiting from the use of Evening Primrose Oil but explaining away their success simply by this is an over simplification I think. They weren't the only nation with access to the latest advances in medical science.

    Andy, the thing is...it went from Argentin as their sole representative at the top 1985-1989 as Sarroni and Moaser were in decline by 85...and then from 1990 onwards Italains dominate everything..and we know what else began then, my only guess is there were more Italians up for it or more of it available? Definitely better drs in Italy. Or team Drs got entire teams organised early in that new era?


    Its a bit of a weird era you're picking Dave. Italy has been pretty succesful over the years, with a steady stream flowing through.

    Italy had
    - 40s - Bartali/Coppi
    - 40s/early 50s - Coppi/Magni
    - Late 50s - Baldini
    - Late 50s/early 60s - Defilippis
    - Mid 60s - mid 70s - Gimondi, Bitossi
    - Mid 70s - mid 80s - Moser
    - Early-mid 80s - Saronni, Battaglin
    - Mid 80s - early 90s - Argentin, Fondriest
    - Early 90s - Chiappucci/Bugno

    There are only a few great champions at a time, but they are always some.

    In terms of big races (post war) the following were won by Italians:

    Tour: 48, 49, 52, 60, 65, 98 (only one win post EPO)
    Giro: 46-49, 51-53, 55, 57-58, 61-63, 65-67, 69, 75-76, 79, 81, 83-84, 86, 90-91, 97-07 (If anything EPO screwed their small climbers here)
    Vuelta: 56, 68, 81, 90 (where is the post 90s boom here?)

    MSR: 46-50, 52-53, 70, 74, 80, 83-84, 90-91, 93-94, 96, 02-03, 05-06
    Roubaix: 49 (t), 50-51, 66, 78-80, 95, 98-99,
    RVV: 49-51, 67, 90, 94, 01-02, 07
    LBL: 65, 82, 85-87, 91, 97-98, 00, 02, 04, 07,
    Lombardy: 46-50, 52-55, 57-58, 61, 64, 66-67, 70, 73, 75, 77-78, 83, 86-87, 95-96, 99, 01-07

    The big upsurge is in the 00s if anything. And we all know that all the really nasty dopers were in the 90s. Picking the late 80s is completely arbitrary and stastically meaningless. Even if it wasn't the best time for Italian cycling, they still on races (1 GT/ 5 Monuments)


    Also
    Bugno was pretty decent in the late 80s, winning stages in the Tour, Giro and Romandie and some decent smaller races. He may have got on the primrose oil in the 90s, but he was still an outstanding rider to begin with.

    Hi Timoid :) , thing is Fondriest was lucky as well...he won the 88 worlds cause of a crash, was 2nd Milan San Remo to fignon 88...then goes quiet to 1991-92 (1991 he won world cup without a big classic win), 92 quiet year in terms of monument wins, worlds, GT podiums. Bugno won no classics or podium in grand tours until 1990 from memory I think-then transforms with the rest of Italy's pros
  • andypandyp Posts: 8,321
    Dave_1 wrote:
    Hi Timoid :) , thing is Fondriest was lucky as well...he won the 88 worlds cause of a crash, was 2nd Milan San Remo to fignon 88...then goes quiet to 1991-92 (1991 he won world cup without a big classic win), 92 quiet year in terms of monument wins, worlds, GT podiums. Bugno won no classics or podium in grand tours until 1990 from memory I think-then transforms with the rest of Italy's pros
    That's rubbish.

    Fondriest was in a break with Criquellion, who couldn't sprint, and Bauer, who wasn't much of a sprinter either, so even if those two hadn't have ridden into each other he had at least a 33.3% chance of winning the race.

    Winning classics involves an element of luck and Fondriest didn't have much in 1990 or 1991 but he was there or thereabouts in the major one day races. He was also riding for Panasonic who had many cards to play in all the classics so it wasn't as if he had protected leader stuff.

    Bugno was racing for minor Italian teams, Atala?, in the first couple of years of his career but he was still winning prestigious races (Giro del Piemonte in his debut season, the Coppa Sabatini in his second year) and won a tour stage in 1988 after his move to Chateau D'Ax.

    Your trying to re-write history to suit your argument. It's failing.
  • Dave_1Dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    edited February 2008
    andyp wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    Hi Timoid :) , thing is Fondriest was lucky as well...he won the 88 worlds cause of a crash, was 2nd Milan San Remo to fignon 88...then goes quiet to 1991-92 (1991 he won world cup without a big classic win), 92 quiet year in terms of monument wins, worlds, GT podiums. Bugno won no classics or podium in grand tours until 1990 from memory I think-then transforms with the rest of Italy's pros
    That's rubbish.

    Fondriest was in a break with Criquellion, who couldn't sprint, and Bauer, who wasn't much of a sprinter either, so even if those two hadn't have ridden into each other he had at least a 33.3% chance of winning the race.

    Winning classics involves an element of luck and Fondriest didn't have much in 1990 or 1991 but he was there or thereabouts in the major one day races. He was also riding for Panasonic who had many cards to play in all the classics so it wasn't as if he had protected leader stuff.

    Bugno was racing for minor Italian teams, Atala?, in the first couple of years of his career but he was still winning prestigious races (Giro del Piemonte in his debut season, the Coppa Sabatini in his second year) and won a tour stage in 1988 after his move to Chateau D'Ax.

    Your trying to re-write history to suit your argument. It's failing.

    :D check the video, Fondriest was off their wheels a bike length back in too small a gear, spun out, but he said he would catch up...but..well...Bauer and Criq were leading him by a bike lenght..as for Italian pro results..they are facts, not opinion. I said grand tours, monuments, worlds...not lesser events..albeit good events I agree. I am comparing the 1990s with the 1980s..at big clasics, GTs, worlds...only...my arguement stands up to scrutiny...things went quiet for Italy at the levl of races I indicate other than Moreno ARgentin's consistent big wins 85-89
  • KléberKléber Posts: 6,842
    You don't end up in the winning move with Bauer and Criquelion just by accident or luck.
  • Dave_1Dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    Kléber wrote:
    You don't end up in the winning move with Bauer and Criquelion just by accident or luck.

    agreed...did Italians win monuments , grand tours or world RR in mid 80s-89 other than ARgentin's
  • andypandyp Posts: 8,321
    Dave_1 wrote:
    agreed...did Italians win monuments , grand tours or world RR in mid 80s-89 other than ARgentin's
    Yes.

    Saronni won the Giro in 83, Moser in 84 and Visentini in 86. Contini won L-B-L in 82. Baronchelli won Lombardy in 86. Moser and Saronni both won M-SR in the mid 80s.
  • Dave_1Dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    andyp wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    agreed...did Italians win monuments , grand tours or world RR in mid 80s-89 other than ARgentin's
    Yes.

    Saronni won the Giro in 83, Moser in 84 and Visentini in 86. Contini won L-B-L in 82. Baronchelli won Lombardy in 86. Moser and Saronni both won M-SR in the mid 80s.

    1985 onward though is what I was saying. Visenti's Giro and baronchelli Lombardy ...other than that it is Argentin for 5 years till Bugno appears at 1990 Milan San Remo win. You bring up a very fair point though about the evening primorse oil being available to the dutch and other countries hence not so fair to single out Italy or put it down to one reason (doping) that they progressed so much. I don't the answer...they had the best sports Drs...every rider at the top wanted Dr ferrai's help eh...just shows you what thwey though of Italy-light years ahead in sports science
  • timoid.timoid. Posts: 3,133
    andyp wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    agreed...did Italians win monuments , grand tours or world RR in mid 80s-89 other than ARgentin's
    Yes.

    Saronni won the Giro in 83, Moser in 84 and Visentini in 86. Contini won L-B-L in 82. Baronchelli won Lombardy in 86. Moser and Saronni both won M-SR in the mid 80s.


    Saronni won the Giro in 83, Moser in 84 and Visentini in 86
    Gavasi (who he?) won MSR in 80, Saronni in 83, Moser in 84
    Contini won LBL in 82
    Moser won Paris Roubaix in 80
    Saronni won Lombardy in 82, Baronchelli in 86
    Saronni won the World's in 82, Fondriest in 88

    = 3 GTs, 7 Monuments and 2 World Championships.

    Add these to Argentin's haul of 3 LBLs, one Lombardy and one World Championship, we have:
    3 GTs, 10 Monuments and 3 World Championships.

    Not too duff a strike rate in the 80s

    Italians were also second in the Giro in 80, 83, 85, 86, 89 and third in 80, 81, 82, 83, 84 (Argentin), 86.
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • andyp wrote:
    Fondriest was in a break with Criquellion, who couldn't sprint, and Bauer, who wasn't much of a sprinter either, so even if those two hadn't have ridden into each other he had at least a 33.3% chance of winning the race..

    would that be the same Bauer that only lost P-R by a millimetre or two in teh sprint finish? Criq and Bauer NOT sprinters? ahahahahahahahahah! :lol: ANy more good jokes up your sleeves?

    Fondriest had a magical year in 1993, coincidentally the first year he was back in an Italian team (Lampre) after a couple of years at Panasonic
  • Dave_1Dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    fair enough Timoid..on page 1 :) , I am only really arguing that things went quiet from mid 1980s to Milan San remo 1990 in the classics, GT, worlds front. early 80s to 84, no disagreement with you...but after 85...it's down to one guy really...Visentini and Barronchelli are the only others to win one single big event, aside fom Argentin's many big wins
  • andypandyp Posts: 8,321
    would that be the same Bauer that only lost P-R by a millimetre or two in teh sprint finish? Criq and Bauer NOT sprinters? ahahahahahahahahah! :lol: ANy more good jokes up your sleeves?
    How does Bauer failing to win in a small group sprint show that he was a sprinter? He lost that day to Eddy Planckaert, who was a sprinter, but who had been out alone for a lot of that edition of Paris-Roubiax. Bauer ought to have toasted him but Planckaert somehow pulled it out of the bag.

    To suggest that Criquielion was a sprinter beggars belief - he lost 5 or 6 monuments due to his inability to sprint.
  • Dave_1Dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    andyp wrote:
    would that be the same Bauer that only lost P-R by a millimetre or two in teh sprint finish? Criq and Bauer NOT sprinters? ahahahahahahahahah! :lol: ANy more good jokes up your sleeves?
    How does Bauer failing to win in a small group sprint show that he was a sprinter? He lost that day to Eddy Planckaert, who was a sprinter, but who had been out alone for a lot of that edition of Paris-Roubiax. Bauer ought to have toasted him but Planckaert somehow pulled it out of the bag.

    To suggest that Criquielion was a sprinter beggars belief - he lost 5 or 6 monuments due to his inability to sprint.

    Yeah, Bauer screwed up races finishes, Olympic RR 84., Paris Roubaix...Criq was no sprinter , he won alone in Ardenees and Flabnders

    * Bauer led out on both occasions in the above races I remember...and tried to do a seated gear change on downtube levers when sprinting at 88 worlds finish, hence veered into Claudi Criq's line...plus barrier went in, not straight! Bauer paniced too much at race finish phases. Criq raised assult charges and Bauer needed police escorts away that day
  • KléberKléber Posts: 6,842
    Returning to Di Luca, the cyclingfansanon blog launches a big attack: "Di Luca's sneering visage, his perpetually ridiculous claims of supposed tranquility, his precarious scaffold of lies and subterfuge". Read more here http://cyclingfansanonymous.blogspot.com/
  • Dave_1Dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    andyp wrote:
    Dave_1 wrote:
    Hi Timoid :) , thing is Fondriest was lucky as well...he won the 88 worlds cause of a crash, was 2nd Milan San Remo to fignon 88...then goes quiet to 1991-92 (1991 he won world cup without a big classic win), 92 quiet year in terms of monument wins, worlds, GT podiums. Bugno won no classics or podium in grand tours until 1990 from memory I think-then transforms with the rest of Italy's pros
    That's rubbish.

    Fondriest was in a break with Criquellion, who couldn't sprint, and Bauer, who wasn't much of a sprinter either, so even if those two hadn't have ridden into each other he had at least a 33.3% chance of winning the race.

    Winning classics involves an element of luck and Fondriest didn't have much in 1990 or 1991 but he was there or thereabouts in the major one day races. He was also riding for Panasonic who had many cards to play in all the classics so it wasn't as if he had protected leader stuff.

    Bugno was racing for minor Italian teams, Atala?, in the first couple of years of his career but he was still winning prestigious races (Giro del Piemonte in his debut season, the Coppa Sabatini in his second year) and won a tour stage in 1988 after his move to Chateau D'Ax.

    Your trying to re-write history to suit your argument. It's failing.

    and Fondriest was signed by post to win classics, if you remember it as it was reported at the time! Rooks, Theunisse and Van lanker did better than him-on the same team! You should be as forgiving to Hincapie sometimes :D
  • iainf72iainf72 Posts: 15,782
    You lot clearly didn't drink / do enough drugs during the 90's. I'm astonished at the level of detail you can remember.

    I remember all those guys and some of the races, but whoa, colour me impressed.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
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