What does this mean..?

SteveR_100Milers

Dear Deirdre,

up until December, after 18 months of returning to cycling and racing a full season last year, my HR has suddenly recalibrated against PE. I used to max out at around 155-158 and my LT or 10 mile TT HR was around 147-150.

Have been doing sessions on the track now for several weeks, plsu some nasty hills of the steep and long kind where you cannot back off, and now I find my cruising or TT HR is now at around 155-158, my max is now 166-168 which i regularly now hit when sprinting.

I have noticed that my sprint is getting better, but i dont feel any faster when riding at TT effort, or when riding with others in a group. it woudl appear to my simple mind that my aerobic engine (VO2 max?) hasnt obviously improved but my anaerobic capacity has...is this possible, or is it because (optmitcially hoping) its the off season I havent seen the corresponding benefit in steady state power?

Yours, worried from Wales...

oldwelshman

You are getting fitter :-)
As you get older your hr max will get lower as does your resting hr.
Mine also started going up as I got fitter last year, also after returning after many years off.
Interestingly, my HR max for cycling is quite a bit lower than for other sports.
See you firday if your on track I might bring Jim with me

ut_och_cykla

Higher pulse/ same output = detrained/ill/sickening. Overtrained? Or perhaps you are now starting to reach your full Cv potential - are you faster? You need to know! if you've got a higher HR & are faster then brill - if not then a rethink might be needed!

SteveR_100Milers

ut_och_cykla wrote:

Higher pulse/ same output = detrained/ill/sickening. Overtrained? Or perhaps you are now starting to reach your full Cv potential - are you faster? You need to know! if you've got a higher HR & are faster then brill - if not then a rethink might be needed!

1. No Chance! last wek i only did 2 hours, my weekly average is 6!

2. in the sprint yes, but dont really know about steady state....doesnt feel any faster, but there are lots of other factors to consider, bearing in mind I wont really know until I've ridden a TT......

Alex_Simmons/RST

Dear Worried from Wales,

I think looking for answers to your anaerobic and aerobic abilities in your HR is barking up the wrong tree.

If you've been doing regular track efforts (depending on what they are) then it is entirely possible you have improved your Anaerobic Work Capacity but it is also quite possible for this to have come at the expense of your aerobic abilities.

Have a read up on the Monod & Scherrer critical power model to see what I mean.

A standard hillclimb TT comparison with last season will sort out the aerobic question (reduced number of externals variables, esp wind).

Singing in Sydney

Ric_Stern/RST

oldwelshman wrote:

You are getting fitter :-)
As you get older your hr max will get lower as does your resting hr.
Mine also started going up as I got fitter last year, also after returning after many years off.
Interestingly, my HR max for cycling is quite a bit lower than for other sports.
See you firday if your on track I might bring Jim with me

HRmax _decreases_ as you get more aerobically fit, and vice versa.

HRmax is exercise modality dependent, as is VO2max, with trained cyclists being able to produce ~100 - ~106% of running max.

Ric

SteveR_100Milers

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Dear Worried from Wales,

I think looking for answers to your anaerobic and aerobic abilities in your HR is barking up the wrong tree.

If you've been doing regular track efforts (depending on what they are) then it is entirely possible you have improved your Anaerobic Work Capacity but it is also quite possible for this to have come at the expense of your aerobic abilities.

Have a read up on the Monod & Scherrer critical power model to see what I mean.

A standard hillclimb TT comparison with last season will sort out the aerobic question (reduced number of externals variables, esp wind).

Singing in Sydney

Thanks Alex for succinct answer, but now am even more concerned....

I am confused now, though since I understood that in order to increase your steady state output (lets call that LT from Friels definition) you should exercise as close to it as possible, but since this is hard, the whole concept of interval training was developed, i.e. push above LT then recover, push above recover etc etc. So have I fundamentally misunderstood the whole concept of interval training? and more critically, will riding the track once a week doing sprints, through and off, hindmost, intervaks etc be of little or no or even a detrimental effect on my TT performance, because if so I'll stop wasting a tenner week right now!
I know the asnwer is to go and test it, which I will do over the next few weeks as the weather in the mountains gets better....

Hope you know the right words, I have them if you need them.

Mike Willcox

Hi Steve

IMO if you are training for TT's then you need to have an aerobic base before doing the LT and VO2max interval training. It's OK to mix it up a bit with a few tempo rides etc. but you don't seem to be doing much (if any) endurance riding .

Any sprint stuff you do now won't make any difference to when you race later on in the year. It's too far away. On the other hand any endurance training you do now will provide a good base and conditioning for doing the interval training later.

xover_runner

HRmax is exercise modality dependent, as is VO2max, with trained cyclists being able to produce ~100 - ~106% of running max.

Ric

What does that mean? I come from running background and when i started cycling my cycle HR max was about 7/8 bpm below running HR max. After 2 years cycling, and keeping the running going more or less, they are now more or less equal. Is that good/bad/indifferent?

Ric_Stern/RST

xover_runner wrote:

HRmax is exercise modality dependent, as is VO2max, with trained cyclists being able to produce ~100 - ~106% of running max.

Ric

What does that mean? I come from running background and when i started cycling my cycle HR max was about 7/8 bpm below running HR max. After 2 years cycling, and keeping the running going more or less, they are now more or less equal. Is that good/bad/indifferent?

it doesn't mean anything. It's just that for people who exercise by running and cycling their HR will, on average, have a higher max when running compared to cycling. However, HR is completely unimportant.

ric

SteveR_100Milers

Mike Willcox wrote:

Hi Steve

IMO if you are training for TT's then you need to have an aerobic base before doing the LT and VO2max interval training. It's OK to mix it up a bit with a few tempo rides etc. but you don't seem to be doing much (if any) endurance riding .

Any sprint stuff you do now won't make any difference to when you race later on in the year. It's too far away. On the other hand any endurance training you do now will provide a good base and conditioning for doing the interval training later.

Mike, agree in principle but its not quite true - typical week is

sunday 2 hours min hilly ride at around 15 mph but with extended LT efforts (they are the dragon ride climbs)

monday turbo for 30 mins

Tuesday 90 mins hilly tempo

Wed track balls out intervals

Thurs nothing

friday sometimes 90 mins tempo rolling

Sat - sometimes 90 mins tempo rolling

I dont have time for much more on average. Some weeks I do 12-13 hours, others as little as 2-3 because of work and travel....

Alex_Simmons/RST

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

Thanks Alex for succinct answer, but now am even more concerned....

I am confused now, though since I understood that in order to increase your steady state output (lets call that LT from Friels definition) you should exercise as close to it as possible, but since this is hard, the whole concept of interval training was developed, i.e. push above LT then recover, push above recover etc etc. So have I fundamentally misunderstood the whole concept of interval training? and more critically, will riding the track once a week doing sprints, through and off, hindmost, intervaks etc be of little or no or even a detrimental effect on my TT performance, because if so I'll stop wasting a tenner week right now!
I know the asnwer is to go and test it, which I will do over the next few weeks as the weather in the mountains gets better....

Hope you know the right words, I have them if you need them.

Depends what you mean by LT (Friel's definition is a little confusing but I'm assuming he means average HR for a 40 km TT). Putting aside the problems I have with that definition in the first place, then you do not need to train at or above TT power in order to improve your TT power. Sure that level of intensity has its place in training but it is not necessary for the bulk of your riding to be that hard. But it is necessary that it be hard enough (as well as consistent, progressively overloaded with appropriate recovery and supported by eating well).

As to your track training - well it's hard to tell the impact it might be having without actually knowing what you are doing. What you call sprint training sounds more like AWC training to me. Those higher intensity adaptations don't take nearly as long to develop as aerobic ones and you can plateau as a result. They also require more recovery taking away from aerobic development time. However - I some how doubt that a weekly fang at the track is doing too much damage. Let's face it - it's fun. But if long hillclimbs are your target, then perhaps you might reconsider it.

SteveR_100Milers

Thanks again Alex. It is just a once a week blast, but my season revolevs around flat TT's rather than hills.

Alex_Simmons/RST

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

I dont have time for much more on average. Some weeks I do 12-13 hours, others as little as 2-3 because of work and travel....

This is the one that sticks out for me.

Unfortunately (for people like those in your situation), consistency is key. And cramming more into the "on" weeks is not necessarily the answer either.

SteveR_100Milers

Well of course you are right, which is why people like me in my situation usually never amount to more than half decent club riders. a sub hour 25, 2 hr 50 and a 4-30 100 is all i want to achieve, that and staying slim and healthy. The fun victories are the meaningless ones like beating your mates up a climb when you're not supposed to...

Alex_Simmons/RST

Sometimes you have to get creative on training during these down/off weeks. Find alternatives, prepare opportunities, consider other modes of training (better than nothing).

SteveR_100Milers

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Sometimes you have to get creative on training during these down/off weeks. Find alternatives, prepare opportunities, consider other modes of training (better than nothing).

which is why i posted about running a while back, its better than nothing given limited time.

Today I rode my summer carbon bike on a 20 mile loop I do quite a lot, and had an equal head and tailwind. I managed to do a PB door to door and actual riding time, and more impoortantly, on some of the long flat stretches I was able to maintain 25+ mph which is a good 2-3 mph than this time last year in similar conditions. I didnt feel particularly "good" as my legs are still aching from friday nights ride, but it seems like the track sessions are having some positive benefit. Of course I am dong more riding this year compared to last which may well be the real reason for the improvent, plus I have been riding for longer.

dan.cave

SteveR.

Q.. How do you know that your LT is at the set limits which you talked about?

Have you had a LT+ Ramp test where you get your blood lactate measured every 3 minutes and graphed accordingly.

as you get fitter aerobically and train at higher intenstity, your LT will increase upwards which if you do top-end max riding/sprinting where you're stressing your aerobic system, you'll see your LT being pushed upwards..

You might find it useful getting your LT measured at three times during the season, say Jan, June and possibly August-Oct when you're hoping to peak.

The knock on effect of training aerobically (getting in plenty of base miles) means your body is able to facilitate the anaerobic training you're putting in which infers your aerobic threshold (usually ~10bpm below your LT ) Im sure Mr Stern will put me straight on this generally speaking

As you're cruising at 25mph, in lab conditions (or on a calibrated turbo/power unit) you're probably generating about 250watts, out on the road this could vary on road and wind conditions.. so you may be pushing out 260-290..

If you get an LT/Max Power test, you'll get more insight as to how you're doing...

As an example, last January i had such a test at Vo2 in dorset,

my LT was at 175bpm, where i produced a modest 200watts. My max was at 275 with a HR of 201bpm (my max is at 208.)- after a december layoff/cold.

If you want to make serious inroads in your training, get a coach who knows what he's talking about and can offer training using Power( +HR as an indicator guage)

Ive been using a PowerTap since October and you'd be VERY surprised as to what you end up producing in terms of wattage, like when getting out the saddle/sprinting..

Like sprinting up to 35mph to peak 1000watts in 10 seconds, or being able to produce 200watts constantly for 30minutes... Landis was reported to being able to maintain 400watts at LT for 30mins.. in context, that sounds quite good, but it's relative to speed..

400watts at 10mph on a 10% ok, whereas 400watts at 17mph at 10% is quite a difference.

dan.cave

Steve, What exactly are you intending to "train" for and when do you intend to peak?

If you're looking to do well towards the end of the season, doing high volume intervals/power work now is going to be wasted.

Using the Joe Beer analogy, think of fitness as an iced cake.

Aerobic capacity/miles= the size of the cake.
marzipan = your Aerobic power
Icing top = top end/VO2Max.

The bigger the cake, the bigger your aerobic power and the more icing required = faster top end, big engine..

Look at how many hours the pro/track sprinters/TT'ers put in 10-15,000 km's base. Seeing the likes of Hushovd,Cavendish etc hit the last 100mtrs after 100mls+ turn on the gas at 40mph + is quite something,

They only get this with aerobic miles.. I remember when Boonen won Paris Roubaix a few years ago, saying he managed to stay in the break and fend off the contenders by keeping the pace at 47km p/h for 60+km's.. He must have been cruising well below his LT...

If you do the same training week in, week out, you'll only be as good as your training, if you want to be able to go faster, then you have to structure your training around the events /strengths which you want to be good in... So you can climb/do hills well, but how's your sprinting, can you do 10-20 max effort sprints, sprinting/climbing will give yo the power now, but for what end result? It's horses for courses, but unles you have a plan, you might not be using your training time SMART-ly. Could you trade one or two of your harder sessions for an aerobic ride, you could use the mantra, 'rest, easy, hard, rest, east, hard' Where easy is just that, aerobic tickover/base building, or something similar after a hard track session next day, you'll get more benefit from this than busting yourself two days on the trot... Active recovery is just that, taking it easy at the right level for the right duration..

My training week is very similar to yours, but I have set levels and purposes to the sessions at set power/hr. Each month i have two sets of power tests which my coach analyses then my levels are adjusted accordingly on the load and benfit gained in the previous month.

eg.. Monday : recovery/stretching/turbo @ 80watts = 45mins.
Tues: turbo : 120-140watts, 90mins
Wed (as tues)
Thur: no bike, rest, stretching
Fri: As Tuesday
Sat: 90-110mins @ 100-120 watts
Sun: 120 mins @100-110watts

Next month, it might be similar but the wattage is upped by 10, but this is specific to me and put together by my coach.

March time, I'll start doing LT power training at the prescribed wattage once a week during an aerobic session, increasing to three times a week, all based around aerobic rides..

April, more of the same as March, just more reps of power training, again at probably higher wattage, and possibly more reps.

May, less aerobic, more LT and some Max sessions/sprints/hill climbs..
etc, Races, TT's and power testing monthly..

Not to forget tapering, which is very important and gives you enough riding volume but allows you active recovery before a key event.

Just food for thought..

Dan

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

Mike Willcox wrote:

Hi Steve

IMO if you are training for TT's then you need to have an aerobic base before doing the LT and VO2max interval training. It's OK to mix it up a bit with a few tempo rides etc. but you don't seem to be doing much (if any) endurance riding .

Any sprint stuff you do now won't make any difference to when you race later on in the year. It's too far away. On the other hand any endurance training you do now will provide a good base and conditioning for doing the interval training later.

Mike, agree in principle but its not quite true - typical week is

sunday 2 hours min hilly ride at around 15 mph but with extended LT efforts (they are the dragon ride climbs)

monday turbo for 30 mins

Tuesday 90 mins hilly tempo

Wed track balls out intervals

Thurs nothing

friday sometimes 90 mins tempo rolling

Sat - sometimes 90 mins tempo rolling

I dont have time for much more on average. Some weeks I do 12-13 hours, others as little as 2-3 because of work and travel....

chrisw12

Dan,

You are either

a) very light

b) have a badly calibrated power meter
or

c) Need a new coach.


Sorry, couldn't resist, only joking.

SteveR_100Milers

Briefly:

LT is measured as my 10 mile TT HR. For most of last year it was consistently 146-150. Now its 150-155, so I'm fitter (but I figured this out yesterday through PE and a speedo).

Targets are flat TT's - first is May, last is September. I know about periodization, but time constraints mess up any structure.

My point was that doing intervals once a week would appear to be having a greater benefit than simply doing another tempo ride for 90 minutes. Its not very scientific I know. If I could do turbo sessions properly, then I'm sure my training could be more structured, but I like to enjoy my riding first and foremost.