malevolent mutts

Raph

Nice one nic!

I nearly killed myself trying to avoid hitting a badger that ran out of a hedge into my path when I was doing 25-odd mph one night - I managed to do an S-shaped stunt to avoid the front wheel hitting it but sadly there was a thump as the back wheel went over it. It ran off, hopefully not seriously hurt. If ever there was a demonstration of kamikaze that was it. I think badgers are possibly a bit like sheep and rabbits, they don't have the brains to work out which way to run when they're scared, they just run forwards, even if it's right into mortal danger. Never heard of an angry one though!

uphillbothways

Mike Willcox wrote:

From what I've read on this thread there are some pretty highly strung hysterical wimps riding their bikes around the place. This thread should be renamed Rant of the Fairies.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=W2JE2Z6XZdQ
http://youtube.com/watch?v=VwsA8Ml61Gs

Of 189 riders starting in the 2007 TdF, three crashed due to out-of-control dogs. At the highest level of racing, with closed roads and a full motorcade, idiot dog owners still manage to cause injury to cyclists.

To me, losing a palm-sized piece of my right buttock or having a carbon wheel implode isn't the kind of thing I just shrug off. To racing cyclists, crashes come with the territory, but to your average recreational cyclist that sort of incident is enough to put many people off for life. If you come off in the tour, you get picked up by your team car. If you come off in the real world, there's a very good chance you'll go under a car.

There's nothing hysterical or wimpish about it - dogs are predatory carnivores, they can do vicious damage. A crash at speed is a horrible thing.

Raph

uphillbothways, I think you got the wrong end of the stick - the hysterical wimps are the dog owners.

In all those examples it's just dogs minding their own business and not being malicious in any way - that's bad enough as it is but I wouldn't hold it against any dog, after all it just strolls about and 12-odd stone of person comes flying along and hits it - it's the dog's owner that's the dangerous drongo in not protecting it from the stunningly obvious danger of a bike race coming along, so you're spot-on in saying it's idiot dog owners causing injury.

A whole other level is when a dog attacks you, so it's not even a case of just going off and assessing how little or how much of your life's been messed up, you still have to deal with being attacked.

Fortunately, owners of big dogs tend to know that the more damage their dog can do, the bigger trouble they'll be in, so it's mostly little yapping rats that attack people, but those can still get mangled up in your wheels and can still take half a hand with them. Quite apart from anything, I agree with dog owners that it's natural for dogs to snarl and scrap, but it's equally natural for humans to try and avoid getting chomped.

Raph

PS Mike are you going to answer the question or just carry on playing the school bully?

richardast

Not sure if Raph is just trolling or if he really is a mentalist. :roll:

We've lived alongside domestic dogs for 15,000 years (bicycles 240 years). I suspect they're here to stay, so we might as well accept it.
If anyone genuinely was interested in learning something about dog behaviour, rather than just having an argument, simply type understand dog behaviour into Google and it will provide about 227,000 websites.
Organisations like the RSPCA, Dogs Trust, etc also have info.

Just for the record Raph, letting your little boy run up to huge dogs and cuddle them is not wise. Many dogs would find that quite threatening.

Garybee

I hardly think Raph is trolling. If anything the trolls on this thread are the people who seem to be defending the agressive dogs / their scummy owners.

I can't see how understanding the dog's behaviour is going to help, are we going to offer it counselling? If an angry dog is snapping at me and out of control I really couldn't give a crap about it's reasons for doing so, it's going to get a damn good kick.

There are plenty of unpleasant things that we have put up with for a long time. Doesn't mean we should be though. Burglary has been around for quite a while, should the police therefore stop trying to catch burglars?

richardast

I haven't defended aggressive dogs or their owners in my posts.
I have defended peoples' right to defend themselves, if attacked.
I only have a problem with people going out in possession of weapons, just in case they have to kill or maim a dog - as the early posts in this thread suggested. It suggests an element of premeditation.

You're probably right about the understanding dogs bit though. Knowledge bad. Kicking animals good. Ug!
Dogs and burglars. Nice analogy. They are exactly the same.
:roll:

Garybee

You're quite right, lets sit the snarling dogs down on a couch and ask them why they're angry :roll: .

You said that we should put up with them as it's been a problem for so long. Why should we not therefore, put up with other problems which have been around for a long time?

richardast

Where did I say you should put up with them?
I was saying that you should accept that dogs are a fact of life and educate yourself if you are ignorant of them.
People who have a clue about dogs don't get bitten. If you like your analogies, it's a bit like wasps. The ones who get stung most often are the fannies who run in circles screaming and waving their hands around.
Another analogy. If you didn't own a car and didn't like cars, would you teach your children to cross the road or would you feel that they shouldn't have to learn road safety?

Garybee

richardast wrote:

Where did I say you should put up with them?
I was saying that you should accept that dogs are a fact of life and educate yourself if you are ignorant of them.
People who have a clue about dogs don't get bitten. If you like your analogies, it's a bit like wasps. The ones who get stung most often are the fannies who run in circles screaming and waving their hands around.
Another analogy. If you didn't own a car and didn't like cars, would you teach your children to cross the road or would you feel that they shouldn't have to learn road safety?

That's a truly ridiculous statement. I personally have never been bitten by a dog, but i have known pet owners that have been.

Cars, now there's a problem, if only there was some kind of set of rules, to govern how they are used, that was enforced by some kind of policing group. We could call them the police. They could do other things when they weren't policing the roads like catch criminals and make crummy music.

Supposedly after you've taught your children to cross the road, if a car runs a red light and mows your kid down at a pedestrian crossing you'd be fine with that because they've understood what the car should do?

Raph

"Not sure if Raph is just trolling "

I asked for advice and the most relevant people to give it only gave irrelevant bullsh1t on the distantly related topic of people attacking dogs, which I wouldn't ever condone. I totally respect your stance that you "only have a problem with people going out in possession of weapons, just in case they have to kill or maim a dog". If I can deal with the problem without having to be "tooled up" then all the better. It still slightly worries me that I might be letting a dog go free that might then mangle someone smaller than me, but I can't be the world's policeman so I'll just deal with my own bit.

Note I started off the thread with an aggressive attitude towards aggresive dogs, but as soon as someone came up with a way of dealing with them that wasn't aggressive, I found it preferable. Any more ideas of that sort would be welcome. This is after all a dialogue, not a stage for posturing.



"I can't see how understanding the dog's behaviour is going to help"

Why not? - as richardast says, dogs are always going to be around. How long cyclists have been around is irrelevant since dogs don't differentiate, but knowing what to do is better than doing something drastic which might be unnecessary. I know that feeling of anger at being snarled at for no reason - but actually I'd rather just do whatever gets the silly mutt off my tail.

Pro- or anti-dog loyalty is stupid either way, I don't like or dislike people, or cyclists (do we count as people? ), it depends who they are and how they behave... same with dogs. I don't see why I should get a load of bile when asking what to do about the stroppy ones.



"letting your little boy run up to huge dogs and cuddle them is not wise. Many dogs would find that quite threatening."

If that's a serious bit of adive, I take it on board. If you mean some kind of ironic analogy with dogs snarling and snapping jaws at humans, it falls pretty flat again because strangely enough my little boy doesn't go up to dogs and snarl and bite their ears off, he genuinely likes them.



"I haven't defended aggressive dogs or their owners in my posts.
I have defended peoples' right to defend themselves, if attacked."

So after all the bad vibes it turns out we agree? I'd far rather have concensus than all that us'n'them cr@p.

Raph

Only thing still not clear - "People who have a clue about dogs don't get bitten." So the victim is to blame?


Also - "Dogs and burglars. Nice analogy. They are exactly the same. " That's not the analogy - people = dogs. burglars = aggressive dogs - that's the analogy. If you're going to dIstort an argument to make it easier to disagree with you'll have to be a bit subtler than that.

Raph

Also, Garybee,

"If an angry dog is snapping at me and out of control I really couldn't give a crap about it's reasons for doing so"

Neither could I, but knowing some ways of stopping it would be a good thing, since giving it a damn good kick doesn't always work - and hard to do in SPDs. And while I don't care for the finer feelings of anyone who's happy for their dog to attack people, it does reduce general escalation of angst if you don't trash their lovely pooch. Mike would of course see this as cowardice, but I really don't go for this pistols at dawn combat to the death sh1te, we have to get along.

richardast

Garybee wrote:

I personally have never been bitten by a dog, but i have known pet owners that have been.

And as we have already agreed, there are a minority of stupid dog owners around.

Garybee wrote:

Supposedly after you've tought your children to cross the road, if a car runs a red light and mows your kid down at a pedestrian crossing you'd be fine with that?

Yes. That's clearly exactly what I was saying. If you could spell you could be a journalist with reasoning like that.

Raph
That was a serious remark. Kids make lots of dogs nervous because kids are bouncy and unpredictable (no reason they shouldn't be - don't anyone take that as a criticism of children).
Lots of dogs aren't used to kids and don't see them as an authority figure. If the kid does something that the dog imagines to be a dominant act (grabbing it around the neck, for example), it may instinctively react in it's own assertive way, even though the child's actions were friendly.

And lastly, I don't blame victims. But going back to our favoured burglary analogy , if you lock your doors and windows you're less likely to get burgled. Knowledge is power. You can make yourself less likely to become a victim by educating yourself.

Garybee

richardast wrote:

Garybee wrote:

I personally have never been bitten by a dog, but i have known pet owners that have been.

And as we have already agreed, there are a minority of stupid dog owners around.

Garybee wrote:

Supposedly after you've tought your children to cross the road, if a car runs a red light and mows your kid down at a pedestrian crossing you'd be fine with that?

Yes. That's clearly exactly what I was saying. If you could spell you could be a journalist with reasoning like that.

And lastly, I don't blame victims. But going back to our favoured burglary analogy , if you lock your doors and windows you're less likely to get burgled. Knowledge is power. You can make yourself less likely to become a victim by educating yourself.

Very mature. I continued YOUR analogy and you ignored it and decided instead to concentrate on a spelling mistake.

It's a good job burglars stop when they realise the building is locked, otherwise you'd just be talking complete jibberish again :roll: .

richardast

Good grief. This is hard work.
Actually, most burglars are opportunists. Like most other aquisitive criminals, they pick the weakest targets.
Common sense - or so I thought.

Good night.

Garybee

richardast wrote:

Good grief. This is hard work.
Actually, most burglars are opportunists. Like most other aquisitive criminals, they pick the weakest targets.
Common sense - or so I thought.

Good night.

Doubt it.

richardast

Garybee wrote:

Very mature

Works both ways. Funny that.

Raph

"kids are bouncy and unpredictable (no reason they shouldn't be - don't anyone take that as a criticism of children)."

That's my attitude to dogs - and similarly not a criticism, it's just the way it is. Not that I'm averse to hearing criticisms of children by the way!! We've been pretty clear with the little one that arms round necks is absolutely not on, and approaching dogs is only from the front where they can see you. I hope that's right! - that link you posted is really useful, thanks for that. Amusingly quite a few things on there are true of bringing up toddlers! It's still not on the topic I was asking about though.

Have we agreed on anything yet? Lots of playground scraps going on but not much actual discussion that might get us somewhere. I still don't feel too sorry for a dog that gets a poke in the eye while attacking someone, just as I wouldn't for a human attacking someone, but I'm open to hearing of other ways of deterring it. So far it's a can of pebbles - any advances on that?

Raph

I've had a preliminary read through some of the stuff on that link.

Firstly, looks like there's a lot to understanding dog behaviour - since you picked up on Garybee's analogy (and mine I think) of burglars - understanding burglars is pretty simple. You fit locks and maybe an alarm, beyond that there's not a lot you can do. If you leave the door open and get burgled you're a twit but the burglar is still guilty and I still have no sympathy if he gets something he didn't expect. There's no complicated behavioural pattern, no "pack bonding" or "classic or operant conditioning" or other jargon - anti-burglary tips can be shared on the net without the need for an evening class.

On the other hand understanding dogs if you don't have one is a whole new subject, perhaps it's simple to you as a dog owner but we've all got other stuff to get on with. If it's as easy as you reckon then please give some clues here as to how to deal with a pack of blood-thristy hounds that storm out of a farm gate snapping jaws at your ankles, threatening to jump at your throat or get tangled in your front wheel - that's on a public road by the way so let's not have any bolux about invading the dog's territory. If you're saying it's more complicated than that.... then it's not reasonable to say that everyone should know about dogs the same as they should know not to stick their fingers in a mains socket. Even road safety isn't a massive subject requiring a lot of understanding, and along the lines of what Garybee said, while cars follow the rules of the road, it isn't complicated, and nobody in the general public expects to have to be trained in how to avoid a motor that jumps a red light or skids off the road, so I'm not sure why the non-dog-owning general public should have to be trained in dealing with a dog that's similarly out of control.

I see the "understanding dogs" thing in two ways - one is that's it's desirable because it might be more effective in fending off an attack than hurting the animal, the other is simply that I don't see why I should spend time and effort to protect the very animal that's attacking me, especially when it might end up emboldened to go and attack the next person.


Mike, you left us with " If you expect an owner to stand by and let you hurt their dog" again avoiding the question about what to do when a dog attacks. You became, dare I say it "hysterical" though nobody had proposed attacking any dog, and went on not to answer the question. Not that you have to of course, just that you look a bit pathetic (a "pathetic inadequate" in your own words?) if you've got absolutely nothing to say but flail about in an ocean of your own anger and then just disappear when pressed for a response.

Raph

"Have a few friends drive by (slowly) in a strange car. When the dog gets in range, open the window and dump a bucket of ice cold water on the animal's head/back. Repeat as needed (with a different car) for reinforcement. "

BL00DY HELL!!!! :shock: That's on a dog-training website!!! And you're freaking out cos I slapped a dog on the head while it was trying to bite my shins???

Raph

Still waiting Mike.

Garybee

Raph, your comment regarding 'understanding dog's behaviour' was what I was getting at before (but was being ignored I think). It's reasonable to expect people to understand to an extent how an animal might become antagonised. Some dogs seem to get agressive for no apparent reason however, and in that case understanding why it has done so will be of no help whatsoever.

nic_77

Raph... you don't want to let this sleeping dog lie do you... some would say that you are like a dog with a bone...

If you want a serious, practical suggestion (from a dog owner), I would suggest three things:

1. A dog which is showing aggessive behavior usually does so as part of it's own 'fight or flight resonse' - a bike is probably pretty weird when your world revolves around chasing sticks and eating pedigree chum. If you respond with aggression the animal is only likely to attack more. Often an unusal response will be effective in distracting the animal - hence the noise of shaking stones in a bottle. Other alternatives might be a loud whistle or shout (dogs have sensitive hearing), or squirt with water. Incidentally the same approach would work in a pub brawl.... if you blew a whistle loudly, it would almost certainly stop your attacker in his tracks

2. Believe it or not, dogs often respond better to female voices (same usually goes for pub hooligans!) - they are more in the dog's audible range! So unless you have a booming voice that makes the ground shake, a higher pitch command can be more effective.

3. Once the animal has been distracted from it's instinct to fight there are any number of standard training techniques to regain control - generally 'staring out' a trained animal will have it looking sheepishly away. If not trained well, you need to make yourself look as big, threatening and powerful - spread your arms, puff your chest out etc. You should never need to see to these 'threats' through, as dogs are naturally submissive animals and will always bow down to the pack leader - you just have to make yourself look and sound like the pack leader! (In a pub fight, I'd be out of the door at 100m pace).

This is always the best way to approach a dog for the first time... as you have seen already, one of your sons has a bold and 'dominant' approach to meeting dogs and therefore will command their respect (hanging round their necks could cause a little aggravation though if done when not expected), the other is very 'submissive' and is more likely to be 'put in his place' by an aspiring pooch.


IMO there are good dog owners and there are bad dog owners... but if you treat your dog like a dog it will be happy, if you treat your dog like a human baby it will be confused. The dog needs and wants to look up to it's owner... we (all animals including humans) have instincts and dogs are no different in responding to theirs. If we can all understand these, and manipulate them where necessary everyone and everything should be able to get along.

Raph

nic, superb, thank you! Quite right I'm hanging on like a pit bull to a shin bone!

Since a couple of the encounters I've had have been on the bike, all that assertive body-language is pretty impossible when you're trying to keep hold of brakes and come to a safe stop. On the flat or downhill I would just try and outrun a dog but the incident I mentioned with four dogs was up a 1:6 near Brecon so not an option and the road was too narrow to do an about turn without stopping. Once I'd stopped I had four demented hyenas round me jumping at my neck.

Ultimately it does grate against me that one should make so much effort to avoid putting the tiniest scratch on the precious creature that is causing one such aggravation for absolutely no reason whatsoever. And that dog owners think that their dogs are nice because their dogs are nice to them, and that snarling at innocent passers-by is cute.



Garybee I do basically agree that the reason for a dog being unsociable are irrelevant. I'm only interested in as much as it helps to deal with it.



MIKE - where are you?