malevolent mutts

Raph

I was on a narrow country road near Shipston on Stour the other day, and there was a car crawling along at less than walking pace, and a little scotty dog on the road - I'm not sure whether the dog belonged to the driver (a lady of advanced years with a hairstyle known as blue rinse), or if the dog was stray and the driver was slowing down to avoid squashing it. I had to slow down cos there was only about a foot gap between the car and grass verge (well, mud verge), and the dog predictably growled and went for me as I squeezed past... so without stopping I slapped it on the head as hard as I could as I went by and snarled back at it - it initially jumped back but then started to chase after me.

Given that not all dogs are as little and, er ...cute... as scotties, I wonder what ideas anyone has on equipping oneself to deal with pesky mutts. Once in Wales I went up the Brecon Beacons and got pretty badly threatened by four dogs that I had to fend off using the bike in one hand and pump in the other, sort of gladiator sword-and-shield style. Next time I went up the same road I took a hefty branch with a sharp bit sticking out of the side, fully intending to terminate any canine that gave me the slightest aggro. As it happened they weren't there, but later on the same ride, after I'd chucked the stick away, I got chased by a couple of other brave pooches.

I personally think that owners of dogs that can't behave themselves deserve all the associated vet's bills. I thought of putting a speaker spike, as in the sort that normally screw into speaker stands to dig into a wooden floor, into the presta valve bit of my pump, but then it would probably be called an offensive weapon and might mean merely I get arrested instead of mauled. I got one of those dog dazer gizmos - mildly effective, and more so on some dogs than others. But basically not that great.

Dog owners are often keen to point out that their dog "was only being friendly" - which makes me all the more keen to point out that I could similarly show my warm-hearted friendship to their dog by taking a chunk out of its shins.

I don't think cyclists get it worse than anyone else, (horse riders get the same I think) but I wonder if there's a legal precedent for dealing with stroppy dogs?

heavymental

Being a rural type I get the odd encounter with farm dogs. As they basically like to chase you, I now slow right down to ruin their fun, I give them the eye and a few low discouraging words before speeding up when I'm well past them. Unless I'm already motoring I don't try and accelerate away as if they come at you then the consequences are more dangerous. I'm familiar with dogs though so I guess I don't get too scared by them but if you get some irate collie heading for you it can be scary.

I'm told a squirt in the face from a bottle is a useful technique but yes, if they get too close or look like a psycho then I don't think you're out of order by giving it a tonk on the snout with a pump but its not an easy manouvre! If its a rpeat offender I think you're within your rights to mention it to the police who may or may not have a word with the owner to keep it locked up. Course, that might mean you have a few more close calls with tractors as a result!

andy_wrx

Try bellowing "SIT!" at it. It may confuse the beast enough to put it off its stride.

wildmoustache

one water bottle full of lighter fluid. douse dog and suggest owner calls off dog. if not ,,,, torch dog.

geoff_ss

Ride a trike

I had a dog try to chase me on cycle track once, as its owner looked on. It got confused because my legs were masked by the back wheels and I started chasing the dog. The owner was not best pleased. I, on the other hand, was delighted.

If growing a beard, wearing sandals and acquiring another wheel is taking it too far, I've also found a squirt of whatever you've got in your bottle works quite well.

Geoff

Raph

Once when trekking in the Pyrenees I was going up the road out of a town where I'd just bought a bottle of plonk to enjoy guzzling up at 8000ft. A car went by with three dogs yapping and woofing insanely out of the window at me as it went past. To my dismay, the car stopped at a house a couple of hundred yards ahead ... and the dogs sort of exploded out of it and ran towards me, barking furiously. I took the rucksack off and got the bottle out sharpish and held it meaningfully, i.e. in a manner to make it clear it was going to get used as a club. The owner desperately pleaded to his dogs to come back, nervously-jokingly saying to them "you're going to get clobbered by that nice man"...

I do actually like dogs - I walk mates' dogs regularly and have lived with dogs occasionally though never owned one myself. It's not a matter of being scared of them unless they're big buggers, the average collie is fine, but still I do sort of see red when snarled at for no good reason, like when I'm just walking along a street minding my own business. However much I like dogs generally, the thing that gets me is the way the species seems to be inherently cowardly - big dogs are brave and valient and will rip you to bits for the fun of it, medium to small ones will make a lot of noise and grab a bite if they can, but basically as long as you act tough they'll cower and run off, until you start walking away, then they come back all brave again until you turn and face them, etc... unless of course you're a little kid in which case you're dinner in the first place. By human standards it would be scummy - it seems that one should treat dogs by dog standards - i.e. if a dog threatens you, do what any bigger dog would have done and rip its s0dding head off.

I lived in the East End of London for a few years, where dog owners would proudly explain to you what sort of hospital treatment you'd need if their rottweiler or bull terrier got hold of you... wow I was so impressed I can tell you. While I do believe there aren't "bad" dogs, only cr@p dog owners, if a dog is used as a weapon, you really have to be able to reciprocate, so having something to hand on the bike would be a good thing. I'm just wondering what you could use that wouldn't be an offensive weapon in the eyes of the law.

disney

wildmoustache wrote:

one water bottle full of lighter fluid. douse dog and suggest owner calls off dog. if not ,,,, torch dog.

That would be when the dog goes 'woof'

disney

Sorry about the well known dog joke. The old compressed air horn is excellent as is a 'dog off' spray. Or pretend you are playing a form of cycle polo where the dog is the little ball and you pass to the owner said ball.

Raph

PS - I remember once I got yapped at by two fairly mean looking dogs that I fended off by throwing a stick for them. I realized they weren't being particularly vicious so instead of threatening them with the stick I just lobbed it and they chased off after it... trouble is then they came back for more and I had to spend the next ten minutes throwing a stick for them. It would have been superb fun except that I had my dog-phobic little boy with me and it set him back a few notches cos he didn't see the fun in any of it and had a panic seizure. Had I been on the bike and not able to throw sticks for them, perhaps I wouldn't have seen the fun in it either. I don't fancy chucking away a good pump to amuse passing dogs! If i can skewer them though it might be worth it...

Raph

"cycle polo where the dog is the little ball "

Yes - that's along the lines I was thinking. A cricket ball on the end of your pump... maybe a concrete cricket ball... with a lead core.

"Raph, your ultra-light carbon bike's surprisingly heavy!" (tee hee hee)

Raph

"woof"???


Oh - I geddit!!!!

Lagavulin

Only ever had one run in and that was with one of those silly little yappy pointless Shi Tzu’s. I just stopped and waited for its owner to get it. Unfortunately it showed complete disregard for its owner whose calls seemed to be falling on deaf ears and appeared to be a complete moron.
I ended up dismounting, picking the dog up and putting it in his arms.

Maybe having had border collies for the past 11 years I've mellowed but no, I can't really say I've considered setting fire to, skewering or braying a dog with a lead-cored concrete ball.

Mind you, on one of my routes I frequently see a beast of a Rottweiler being exercised. This thing is tethered to its owner by what appears to be part of a cable from the Humber Bridge. At the end of this "lead" is a bloke who looks like he could bench press the Tyne Bridge.
I'm not sure if this dog could actually run but the "what if..." scenario is not a pleasant thought. :shock:

wildmoustache

Raph wrote:

Once when trekking in the Pyrenees I was going up the road out of a town where I'd just bought a bottle of plonk to enjoy guzzling up at 8000ft. A car went by with three dogs yapping and woofing insanely out of the window at me as it went past. To my dismay, the car stopped at a house a couple of hundred yards ahead ... and the dogs sort of exploded out of it and ran towards me, barking furiously. I took the rucksack off and got the bottle out sharpish and held it meaningfully, i.e. in a manner to make it clear it was going to get used as a club. The owner desperately pleaded to his dogs to come back, nervously-jokingly saying to them "you're going to get clobbered by that nice man"...

I do actually like dogs - I walk mates' dogs regularly and have lived with dogs occasionally though never owned one myself. It's not a matter of being scared of them unless they're big buggers, the average collie is fine, but still I do sort of see red when snarled at for no good reason, like when I'm just walking along a street minding my own business. However much I like dogs generally, the thing that gets me is the way the species seems to be inherently cowardly - big dogs are brave and valient and will rip you to bits for the fun of it, medium to small ones will make a lot of noise and grab a bite if they can, but basically as long as you act tough they'll cower and run off, until you start walking away, then they come back all brave again until you turn and face them, etc... unless of course you're a little kid in which case you're dinner in the first place. By human standards it would be scummy - it seems that one should treat dogs by dog standards - i.e. if a dog threatens you, do what any bigger dog would have done and rip its s0dding head off.

I lived in the East End of London for a few years, where dog owners would proudly explain to you what sort of hospital treatment you'd need if their rottweiler or bull terrier got hold of you... wow I was so impressed I can tell you. While I do believe there aren't "bad" dogs, only cr@p dog owners, if a dog is used as a weapon, you really have to be able to reciprocate, so having something to hand on the bike would be a good thing. I'm just wondering what you could use that wouldn't be an offensive weapon in the eyes of the law.

you're right there raph, i like dogs too and the lighter fuel thing was tongue in cheek ... though as a weapon it would be pretty effective. loads of dogs these days are obviously kept in part as weapons which is making the case the licensing. I see no reason why people should own such things. doesn't a labrador give as much pleasure as a rottweiller. i agree it's a case of bad owners but sadly as is often the case everyone suffers because of those who abuse the freedom.

I don't carry any weapons on the bike for dogs but generally find they are cowards if stood up to, or else i would get away from them on the bike.

disney

I travel along a well known stretch of sea front on the Kent coast and 4 legged friends are present in vast numbers all day long, some owners with up to 4 dogs each. I have sadly learned that the dogs and owners are totally oblivious to cyclists. Dogs never have the slightest idea about the danger of a cycle. They will see you and still run directly in front of you at the last second with the expanding lead creating the strangulation barrier.
Simply assume dog and owner have a death wish and all will be well.

meagain

I used to quite like dogs before I cycled! Now I don't really see any place for them in a civilized, urban, society. Many are as ill-behaved as their owners.

"Don't worry, he/she won't bite you."

"Damn right. If it tries, I WILL KILL IT." Seems to work - even if often accompanied by hysterical abuse. Comes to the crunch, fist as far down throat as possible, either choke it or break its windpipe.

Tony Universe

I agree with wildmoustache, most dogs are cowards deep down. I was a postie for a bit and found that the nuisance dogs on my round would scarper if I went for them, 'making myself big', as they say about goalkeepers, and growling.

I've had most trouble with dogs while runnning, and I've always made a point of abusing the owners, very satisfying. After being virtually mauled by one enormous beast, the owner said "he's allowed to be off the lead". "%@$@!@£@&^@*&@^£@!!", I replied. I think he got my point.

wildmoustache

Tony Universe wrote:

I was a postie for a bit and found that the nuisance dogs on my round would scarper if I went for them, 'making myself big', as they say about goalkeepers, and growling.

always thought that's an incredibly homosexual thing to say about goalkeepers.

steviemc

There was an article about this very topic in Cycling Plus magazine last year.From what i remember their advice was to get off your bike,place the bike between you and the offending mutt.Then you wagged your finger at it and told it to back off. I remember thinking to myself...What a load off B*****KS....But a friend of mine who had been recently bitten by a German Shepherd read the article and tried it out on his next encounter with the offending canine. Result...The dog stopped ,dropped its head and walked back to its front garden.....

richardast

I'm a cyclist and a dog owner.

Ive never had bother with a dog when on the bike. I live opposite a park with a cycle path through the middle and cycle past several dogs every day.

I've had bother as a dog owner with inconsiderate cyclists on numerous occasions. Mostly it's been MTBers who don't believe in giving way to pedestrians on rural footpaths (dog on lead and under control) or roadies on shared cycle/footpaths who approach from behind at +20mph without a warning and scare the cr4p out of dog (on lead or walking to heel) and owner.

Not impressed with the suggestions about using weapons on the dogs. Most dogs are utterly harmless. Some are a bit exciteable.
We didn't find it funny when Parris suggested violence against cyclists because a moronic few damage our reputation.

I've never met a hypocritical dog. Can't say the same about cyclists.

JWSurrey

disney wrote:

wildmoustache wrote:

one water bottle full of lighter fluid. douse dog and suggest owner calls off dog. if not ,,,, torch dog.

That would be when the dog goes 'woof'

Heh - Let me guess - his name would be "Sparky"

Raph

rishardast -

"Ive never had bother with a dog when on the bike" - HAHAHAHAHAHA yet another dog owner that claims there isn't a problem. Dog owners say stuff like that when you've just been bitten by their lovely fido. Then blame you for not being able to control the dog therefore fair enough that it bit you. Like blaming you for not being assertive enough to stop that burglar that's running off with yer telly. Violence is a crime, but hey, for the odd dig it's natural and it's your s0dding fault for letting it happen - after all "I've never had a problem!!". You know what - the unfairness in this is that humans are restricted by human laws, dogs are, according to their owners, only restricted by the laws of nature - well tell you what, if it's natural for a dog to try and make off with my leg, it's equally natural for me to want to do it some similar damage, preferably before it does. Doesn't seem too unfair to me, even by human standards.

"Not impressed with the suggestions about using weapons on the dogs" - Pardon? The dog has teeth and a willingness to use them - we have... fingernails? Sorry mate, I'll use whatever's to hand.

And anyway you're missing the point by many many light years. Nobody here has suggested harming or even saying a very quiet "boo" to a well behaved dog or one just minding its own business. A few of us including myself have said we like dogs in general. If you "take sides" with dogs regardless of any distinction between good or bad ones, what you're effectively implying is you support violent dogs that can't help mauling passing humans that haven't harmed them and didn't have any intention of doing so. I didn't take sides against dogs - just against the pain-in-the-@rse few that have threatened me when I'm minding my own business, and terrified the wits out of my little boy who as a result is now phobic about dogs, and I spend a lot of energy explaining to him that out of any 100 dogs, 99 of them will be ok. Cr@p dogs don't bring nice dogs into disrepute - but they do need dealing with, they're not simply ok because they're dogs.

"Most dogs are utterly harmless" ...so what's your point? Thanks for conceding that only "most" dogs are ok - it's the remaining few we're proposing to take a stance against. Most people are ok but some like to break a bottle over your head on a Saturday night - should we let them continue becasue "most" people are utterly harmless?

"Some are a bit exciteable. " Guess what, supposing I'm a bit "excitable" and bite your ear off? I was only playing your honour! I was only a bit excitable. It's not up to the victim to work out whether the crime was a jolly jest or not - yapping at people and jumping on them is NOT a way to go about. It's not the dog's fault that in a case I knew of the victim happened to be on a bike and suffered a cracked skull, memory damage, loss of career etc, or that another guy I know recently had his left hand ripped to shreds by a dog and is now an ex-musician looking for another job....

"shared cycle/footpaths who approach from behind at +20mph without a warning and scare the cr4p out of dog (on lead or walking to heel) and owner. " - shared cycle paths are a stupid idea to my mind, precisely because neither owners or dogs can ever stay on the correct side of the line... but that's a rather brutal change of subject, you should start a new thread on that, it's not relevant to dogs that like to take chunks out of passing humans. If you're sticking up for the type that behave themselves then you're right on my wavelength - I stick up for them too. Also I have major gripes with cyclists that don't use lights at night, that use pavements when they don't have a right to be there let alone a right of way, etc. etc. etc. ...but I don't see how any of this has any bearing on whether one has the right to defend oneself when attacked by a dog.

Steve I

As a postie I've had many run ins with dogs over the years. I know it's a big joke, the sight of a postman being chased by a dog, but the reality is dog bites hurt, a lot, particularly on the hands. Some observations I've made concerning dogs:

Trying to kick/hit them is a waste of time, they're usually too fast for humans

If you do manage to kick them, they'll yelp or scream hideously, this will incur the wrath of the owner. You've assaulted a family member

They all say, "don't worry, he won't hurt you"

If you get bitten they'll say "he's never done that before"

The best defence is to try and use something as a shield, a bike is effective, as is a bag, though it might get bitten. Picking up a stone and throwing it at the dog works very well. You can also just mime the action, it still seems to work quite well. You know what, I really hate dogs, although it's not the dog's fault it's the moronic owners'. All the encounters I've had have been through the fault of stupid owners not controlling their dogs.

One funny incident comes to mind, I knocked on the door of a house (I had a poster in a long tube to deliver), it was opened and a dog came flying out barking and snapping at me. In defence, I rammed the tube into the dog's mouth. The woman owner thought the dog was attacking the tube and tried to get hold of the dog. In the meantime, I was having great fun jamming the tube down the dog's throat and watching the tube get destroyed, serves the stupid woman right. You'd think people would put the dog away when there's a knock on the door, but you'd be wrong, most think they can control the dog with their knees while they sign for something. I've been bitten a few times like that when the dog squeezes past suddenly. Another time, a loose dog had gone for me by it's own house, minutes later it's trotting along the street (council estate) right in front of me with it's bollocks on display, big mistake, kicking that dog in the goolies from behind is one of the most satisfying things I've done, (sad, I know)

Steve I

Raph, without agreeing or disagreeing with what you said, well argued mate.

cee

Man I don't know what you guys are doin, but I have never had a problem with a dog whilst on the bike...Or at all thinking about it.

It was news to me to read all of this canine related agro..

It would seem that most of the real gripes seem to be about the owners not having control, than the dogs themselves.

What about a stick with a sharp bit for the owner of an uncontrolled dog. I would think a controlled dog would walk at heel as well, rather than necessarily need to be on the lead all of the time.

Mike Willcox

From what I've read on this thread there are some pretty highly strung hysterical wimps riding their bikes around the place. This thread should be renamed Rant of the Fairies.

richardast

Raph
As with an attack from a human, of course you have a right to defend yourself if you are attacked. However, you don't have the right to go out tooled up, just in case.
Read my post again. I don't support "violent dogs that can't help mauling passing humans".
I was just trying to bring in a bit of perspective. I see and suffer far more at the hands of aggressive humans than dogs, yet if I was to carry a weapon to launch a pre-emptive strike on anyone that looked at me funny, I would be quite rightly locked up.
Most dogs are not aggressive. Most dog owners are normal people.
Most of us good dog owners dislike the small minority who are irresponsible in terms of poor control or failing to scoop because they give us all a bad name.
Can you not see the parallel I was drawing with the good, responsible cyclists who dislike the minority who RLJ and pavement ride?

Raph

"I see and suffer far more at the hands of aggressive humans than dogs"

There's probably a discussion somewhere about people being violent and biting each other - go and let some out some steam there. Here the topic is DOGS.

If you've never had a problem with a dog then that's great - no sarcasm by the way, it really is. But then your comments on here are irrelevant. It's like saying to someone "well I've never mugged" as they take themselves off to A&E. There - I'm drawing a parallel with your parallel.

" a pre-emptive strike on anyone that looked at me funny" - ok, you obviously haven't read any of mine either then. I'm not suggesting attacking a random selection of local dogs just in case one of them might happen to attack me, which would be a good way of ensuring that it did! They look at me funny, that's fine, I might look at them funny. They jump up and down behind a fence, that's fine, I just walk away. But the one that took a strip of skin off my leg wasn't fine and both it and its owner needed dealing with. I can't think of a better consequence for the owner than that his lovely pooch gets something it didn't expect. The average dog owner seems to think that sort of thing should be rewarded with a pat on the back and biscuit - there there fido - "he's very protective of me y'know". Supposing I were very protective of me then?

As for "tooled up" - the point of this thread is to try and find out whether there's anything that isn't regarded purely as a weapon that would help in the case of a dog really intending to take a chunk out of you. If you'd read the beginning of the thread, I got attacked by four farm dogs and had to use the bike and pump to get out of it, and it's only because I acted vicious that I got out of it - had I been a smaller person or less inclined to look aggressive, I might well have been in serious trouble. Of course everything's fine while by chance you've never been attacked, what could possibly be the problem!!! It might only take the once to end your career - as I've said I know two people who've had their lives totally messed up from being attacked by dogs, one of them became aprroximately a vegetable. And before you all butt in and change the subject - yes I've also lost a couple of mates to car accidents, one to cancer and one to an avalanche in Peru (seriously), and yes there are bigger threats in life, yes all the other dogs are lovely, I know lots of them myself... but here I'm asking about dogs that can't behave themselves and what to do about it - if you have any suggestions then let's have them please, if not then never mind.

"I've never met a hypocritical dog" - no, quite!! Only hypocritical dog owners !!

Raph

PS I carry a dog dazer when I remember to take it - it's moderately effective, though since as you mention most dogs are friendly I've only had to use it a couple of times, and it sort of worked... a bit. On a bike it would have been irrelevant since you'd probably fall off while fumbling to get it out.

PS - "This thread should be renamed Rant of the..." ...Fairy Dog-Owners that are scared that their precious mutts might get hurt while skinning someone.

wildmoustache

richardast wrote:

I'm a cyclist and a dog owner.

Ive never had bother with a dog when on the bike. I live opposite a park with a cycle path through the middle and cycle past several dogs every day.

I've had bother as a dog owner with inconsiderate cyclists on numerous occasions. Mostly it's been MTBers who don't believe in giving way to pedestrians on rural footpaths (dog on lead and under control) or roadies on shared cycle/footpaths who approach from behind at +20mph without a warning and scare the cr4p out of dog (on lead or walking to heel) and owner.

Not impressed with the suggestions about using weapons on the dogs. Most dogs are utterly harmless. Some are a bit exciteable.
We didn't find it funny when Parris suggested violence against cyclists because a moronic few damage our reputation.

I've never met a hypocritical dog. Can't say the same about cyclists.

I think a lot of the suggestions here are tongue in cheek ... mine was. But .. never assume that what you regard as excitable isn't downright threatening to other people

Crag Rat

As a dog owning cyclists that's also a postman three days a week, I'd like to offer a few tips. Firstly it's mostly the owners that are at fault for allowing dogs they have very little control over out in public and off a lead. Secondly if approaching a dog and owner from behind, why not let them know your coming and give the owner time to get the dog/s under control. I've trained my dogs to lie down and wait until cyclists/horse riders/other walkers go past, they now do it instinctively but it's better if we have warning.

If you regularly encounter problems, a very simple but the most effective deterant (even better than a dog dazer imho) is a small mineral water/pop bottle filled with pebbles. When a dog approaches shake the bottle at the dog and shout NO in a firm commanding voice. I carry one whilst at work and recently faced down a Tibetan Mastif this way. I also use it to fend off other dogs that attack my two collies.

In the same way as swe get annoyed by being stereotyped as red light jumping/pavement riding morons by the likes of Parris, it is annoying to read some of the all dog owners are idiots comments.

wildmoustache

I've just read this thread over and must say that raph has totally nailed it.