coaching?
ARob
Posts: 143
has anyone ever used a coach or had a lab test of their fitness levels?
was it worth it and was it expensive?
is there anyone in the maidstone area that anyone can recomend?
feel i need something tangible to be able to measure as a target this time of year.
was it worth it and was it expensive?
is there anyone in the maidstone area that anyone can recomend?
feel i need something tangible to be able to measure as a target this time of year.
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Comments
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There are about a hundred coaches on this forum all fighting for your custom. Just ask a question and say what you're doing but digiuse it by mentioning power meter or something equally contreversial and you'll have all the answers you need.
Repest this process every week by saying what you've done (and of course mentioning power meters) and you'll have your own personalised training plan.0 -
OOOhh Chris
I can see Ric and Alex coming along, followed closely by Mike and probably a few words from steve 8) 0 -
chrisw12 wrote:There are about a hundred coaches on this forum all fighting for your custom. Just ask a question and say what you're doing but digiuse it by mentioning power meter or something equally contreversial and you'll have all the answers you need.
Repest this process every week by saying what you've done (and of course mentioning power meters) and you'll have your own personalised training plan.
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Naughty, Chris. 0
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All this free advice and you guys are knocking it?
Come on now, some of the stuff posted on this forum is like gold dust. If the likes of Ric, Alex, and Ruth etc stopped their posting you guys would be the first to complain.
Who else has got anything else worth listening to? Well?0 -
"Kind Of Blue" by Miles Davis. Well worth a listen. Le Blaireau (1)0
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ARob wrote:has anyone ever used a coach or had a lab test of their fitness levels?
was it worth it and was it expensive?
is there anyone in the maidstone area that anyone can recomend?
feel i need something tangible to be able to measure as a target this time of year.
I've got an online coach, costs about £35 a month. I had fitness testing done, mainly V02 max and lactate threshold.
I found it very useful as it highlighted that I need to do more lsd rides.0 -
Isn't that a banned substance?method wrote:I've got an online coach, costs about £35 a month. I had fitness testing done, mainly V02 max and lactate threshold.
I found it very useful as it highlighted that I need to do more lsd rides. 0 -
luckily I don't get tested. 0
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I paid for some coaching off Ruth Eyles, and had have found it extremely useful. I read a lot and so have a pretty good knowledge of training techniques and principles, but this really was useful!
Her plan gave me target heart rate zones, type of ride (level1/2/3 or 2x20 intervals or power training sessions ) and the thing I found most useful is her plan limits me, before I was going completely ott in hours but it wasn't really good enough quality.
I think the things I've gathered from most people who've had coaching is that often they don't need to do as many hours as they think, or that their hours arent a good enough quality and so they're just piling up lot's of junk mileage when they should be doing harder shorter rides, or intervals etc.
I didn't pay for fitness test, as I think this years racing season will be a good enough test for my fitness
I found her training plan extremely useful and any queries I've had shes been happy to explain in e-mails-- so a big thumbs up for Ruth!
(also 3 months training personalised training plan + consultation + guidance on nutrition or various other things = £100 with the next 3 months costing me £50)
http://www.rutheyles.co.uk"I hold it true, what'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost;
Than never to have loved at all."
Alfred Tennyson0 -
method wrote:ARob wrote:has anyone ever used a coach or had a lab test of their fitness levels?
was it worth it and was it expensive?
is there anyone in the maidstone area that anyone can recomend?
feel i need something tangible to be able to measure as a target this time of year.
I've got an online coach, costs about £35 a month. I had fitness testing done, mainly V02 max and lactate threshold.
I found it very useful as it highlighted that I need to do more lsd rides.
LSD = Long Slow Distance.
I've never done a VO2max test or a Lactate Threshold Test so I'm interested in how an analysis of the results of these tests highlighted the need for LSD rides at I take it <75% MHR.0 -
The testing used a respiratory quotient and basically showed at what point I started burning fat, my V02 max was good, but I wasn't that good a fat burner. The LSD rides were to increase this.
I may have this totally wrong, the coach knows what he's doing though.0 -
method wrote:The testing used a respiratory quotient and basically showed at what point I started burning fat, my V02 max was good, but I wasn't that good a fat burner. The LSD rides were to increase this.
I may have this totally wrong, the coach knows what he's doing though.
May I ask where you got the testing done?-- Dirk Hofman Motorhomes --0 -
phil s wrote:method wrote:The testing used a respiratory quotient and basically showed at what point I started burning fat, my V02 max was good, but I wasn't that good a fat burner. The LSD rides were to increase this.
I may have this totally wrong, the coach knows what he's doing though.
May I ask where you got the testing done?
why does it sound like I'm talking rubbish? :shock:0 -
First off I am not a coach and I have raced for +10years at national level so a good bit of experience. I think that regardless of how good you are you will benefit from both coaching and fitness tests.
Fitness Tests
A lot of lads turn these into events in there own right. The purpose of these is simply to find out your starting point. No medals/points/awards are handed on based on these results. Test will benchmark where you are today and cleary identify the heart rate zones for optimal training to get you to point b. If you rely on %Max Heart rate etc or other formula you are second guessing. Also teh fitness test can identify what areas you need to work on.
Coaches
Dont get a coach unless you are prepared to listen and give up some control on what you do!! You need to trust your coach and be willing try out new things.
Too often riders sit down have a discussion agree a plan but never implement it as they heard that riders A was doing 4hrs or 3min intervals not 2min etc. If you get a plan and start to randomize it it will not work!! If things are not working you can discuss the issues before you deviate.
Finally you need to be able to listen to your body and be very honest about how things are going. Quite often riders will be told do 3-4hrs and let me know how u get on. Lads will be on their hands and knees finishing rides just to meet the plan and if asked by teh coach say it is fine.This is wrong you need to let them know what is working well and what is not to get best results. I know of one coach whose reputation suffered as a result of this. Everyone said he had training progs that would make or break you. The reality was he had riders that listened and those that didn't!!!!
A coach is not a magic bullet but if you if you get a good one and are prepared to listen you will get benefits for sure.0 -
method wrote:phil s wrote:method wrote:The testing used a respiratory quotient and basically showed at what point I started burning fat, my V02 max was good, but I wasn't that good a fat burner. The LSD rides were to increase this.
I may have this totally wrong, the coach knows what he's doing though.
May I ask where you got the testing done?
why does it sound like I'm talking rubbish? :shock:
Not at all, I was just wondering where you did the test? I did a small feature on testing here -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A30902267-- Dirk Hofman Motorhomes --0 -
phil s wrote:method wrote:phil s wrote:method wrote:The testing used a respiratory quotient and basically showed at what point I started burning fat, my V02 max was good, but I wasn't that good a fat burner. The LSD rides were to increase this.
I may have this totally wrong, the coach knows what he's doing though.
May I ask where you got the testing done?
why does it sound like I'm talking rubbish? :shock:
Not at all, I was just wondering where you did the test? I did a small feature on testing here -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A30902267
I saw that the other day, good article. I had it done with a guy called Mark Tickner, details here: http://www.trust4you.co.uk/ Its triathlon related so I guess the focus might be a bit different. It was well worth it, cost around £100 including some other tests.0 -
That's a good price, hope you're training goes well and feel free to chip in on the debate on my article. The more the Beeb bosses notice cycling users on the website, the more they'll be inclined to treat the sport seriously-- Dirk Hofman Motorhomes --0
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Phil a good piece on the beeb.
I am curious to know how he measure your potential. I am assuming he used your VO2 then took approximate power/wt for fully fit athletes with that VO2 and assigned you a max power based on your weight.
In order to get training zones (and lactate threshold) accuratly most labs will rely on blood lactate as this will give a clearer picture than heart rate vs. power. When comparing results versus other riders I think you need to look at Revs, time at each interval, watt increments used in the test. The lab I use is 80rpm, 3min/interval and 40w increments.
In testing it is worth looking at accuracy of the results. What power meter is used, how well sealed the mask is (If badly sealed it will skew results), how well u maintain a given power output - lots of riders yo-yo at high power output. The revs per minute you use can effect the VO2 result - higher revs will up VO2. Also plotting blood lactate vs. power gives a much clearer picture for measuring lactate threshold and training zones than hr vs.power.
Check out Arnie Baker - Bicycling Medicine: Nutrition, Physiology and Injury Prevention. Sounds like a medical text book but anything but. Very readable and explains all very clearly. Covers all areas of cycling and does a nice bit on testing and what to look for in results.0 -
Being old skool I cannot take for granted that the results of a maximal test indicate that the tested individual should undertake X amount of time @ zone 2 to improve fat burning and/or 3 minutes and not 4 minute intervals to improve Lactate Threshold etc. etc.
How can a coach be that precise about anything based on what we now see described as a test which itself is subject to the vagaries of the inaccuracies of testing conditions and procedures. This quote from Off the Back post is very illuminating in that some riders cannot fulfill their alloted schedules as they are too tough. They might even be too easy.
Off the Back quote:
Finally you need to be able to listen to your body and be very honest about how things are going. Quite often riders will be told do 3-4hrs and let me know how u get on. Lads will be on their hands and knees finishing rides just to meet the plan and if asked by teh coach say it is fine.This is wrong you need to let them know what is working well and what is not to get best results. I know of one coach whose reputation suffered as a result of this. Everyone said he had training progs that would make or break you. The reality was he had riders that listened and those that didn't!!
So you may have had a test and you may have an indication of where you need to do some training from this test but at the end of the day it all boils down to traning to a schedule that works from rider feedback on how you are feeling and how well you recovering. Which beggars the question why have the test in the first place?0 -
dont get me wrong I am all for the test!
It is the best benchmark that you can get but not perfect. It is the best starting point you can get. Research shows that training as close and just below the upper limit of your training zones produces maximum benefit. The test will only give the zones not teh intervals (duration or fq) that a rider should do. That will come down to your coach. The more experience they have the better.
Riders are not lab rats so there are huge amount of external factors that will effect your training -- lifestyle, diet, job, relationships, weather, injury. A good coach will discuss these external factors and try to make allowances for these. (why i tend to be suspect with off the peg web training schedules - no allowance for factors). You need to maintain a loop with ur coach giving him feedback so that he can adjust the plan accordingly.
Like u say the old skool methods still hold - listening to ur body is key. Power tap as a training tool on the bike is not a whole lot better than heart rate but it is useful for getting teh feedback to teh coach for a rider that is not good at listening to their body. The danger is that riders will become over dependent on the tools!0 -
off the back wrote:dont get me wrong I am all for the test!
It is the best benchmark that you can get but not perfect. It is the best starting point you can get. Research shows that training as close and just below the upper limit of your training zones produces maximum benefit. The test will only give the zones not teh intervals (duration or fq) that a rider should do. That will come down to your coach. The more experience they have the better.
You could equally say that you can race yourself fit.
I used to race early season TT's as training and by your definition you are then in the required zone automatically to get the most benefit.(without the need for a RAMP test to establish HR/Power levels for LT & VO2max )
Your body might already have got accustomed to that level of effort on tempo rides or training at a higher rate of intensity for long intervals 7/8 minutes. What is more you are self-adjusting for the moving target of what is an improving LT.
Later on in the piece, VO2max is sorted by doing sprint intervals at max effort.
At the end of the day it would seem to me that with a not unreasonable amount of work ethic, this bench mark can be established without the need for a lab test.
Please someone tell me that it is not that simple or am I missing something here?0 -
"in the required zone automatically" - not sure how u work this out
If you race what are you using to set your pace (speed, heart rate, power, feel) and how do u know that this is correct. A test tells you what your body is actually doing at every heart rate - if you ride at 10mile TT pace that means nothing to your body. In the same way if you ride at 320W... you need to know what your body is doing at 320W/at 10mile TT pace/165bpm to understand the gains. What your body is doing is measured in Oxygen uptake and blood lactate values. Only with this info can you see where your body moves from fat burning to glycogen to anerobic.
If you cycle your bike more/harder you will improve. What the test does is allows you to maximise your time on the bike more efficiently and make greater gains. Sports science going back 30years has shown that intervals at close to these zones produces best results. Our East german and Russian friends developed teh whole idea in the 70s I believe.
If you take LT training you do an interval just below LT. Then ease off then do another interval. If you dont know your LT heart rate/power then you can end up pushing yourself doing long intervals anerobic which will make gains initially but limit your developemnt. Similiarly if you train on 25 TT pace and it happens to be too low then you are going to easy and not making gains as if. The test pin points where u need to be to get most gains.
Also with regard to TT for training the duration of your intervals will be too long. If you do a 10mile TT you will riding 20-25minute anerobic intervals. or if 25mile TT it will be a 55-65minute LT interval (prob even anerobic). In both cases maximium benefits would be made by breaking these intervals out. Your body adapts much quicker from a period of stress and recovery (interval training). The gap of teh interval should be a % of the stress so that it forces your body to recover quicker. This method applied correctly will make more gains than a constant period of stress. Years of research have proven this.0 -
I like the quote I read in a teaching journal when teachers were trying to go away from all the testing that we had to do.
You don't make a pig fat by weighing it.
As a teacher, I'd say that tests meen sweet FA to the pupils but mean a tremendous amount to me as their teacher. I suppose the same applies here. You test yourself, but it's what you (or your coach) does with the information that's improtant.
For you Mike, since you are training yourself, you are both the coach and the pupil so you are therefore testing yourself all of the time anyway.0 -
off the back wrote:"in the required zone automatically" - not sure how u work this out
If you race what are you using to set your pace (speed, heart rate, power, feel) and how do u know that this is correct. A test tells you what your body is actually doing at every heart rate - if you ride at 10mile TT pace that means nothing to your body. In the same way if you ride at 320W... you need to know what your body is doing at 320W/at 10mile TT pace/165bpm to understand the gains. What your body is doing is measured in Oxygen uptake and blood lactate values. Only with this info can you see where your body moves from fat burning to glycogen to anerobic.
If you cycle your bike more/harder you will improve. What the test does is allows you to maximise your time on the bike more efficiently and make greater gains. Sports science going back 30years has shown that intervals at close to these zones produces best results. Our East german and Russian friends developed teh whole idea in the 70s I believe.
If you take LT training you do an interval just below LT. Then ease off then do another interval. If you dont know your LT heart rate/power then you can end up pushing yourself doing long intervals anerobic which will make gains initially but limit your developemnt. Similiarly if you train on 25 TT pace and it happens to be too low then you are going to easy and not making gains as if. The test pin points where u need to be to get most gains.
Also with regard to TT for training the duration of your intervals will be too long. If you do a 10mile TT you will riding 20-25minute anerobic intervals. or if 25mile TT it will be a 55-65minute LT interval (prob even anerobic). In both cases maximium benefits would be made by breaking these intervals out. Your body adapts much quicker from a period of stress and recovery (interval training). The gap of teh interval should be a % of the stress so that it forces your body to recover quicker. This method applied correctly will make more gains than a constant period of stress. Years of research have proven this.
Each and every situation you describe above is aerobic.
LT training is defined as the pace that you can sustain for a 25 mile TT. If you do a 25 mile TT then you know the pace that you can sustain. Then you can apply the same in intervals as I described. Knowing the lab figures is one thing. On the road under road conditions is what counts.0 -
I cannot reason where there is no logic -
Best of luck :-)0 -
off the back wrote:I cannot reason where there is no logic -
Best of luck :-)
I've won many TT's at distances ranging from 10 miles to 100 miles on all types of courses. My best time for a 10 mile TT is 20.30 on a drop handle bar road bike with conventional rimmed wheels and 32 rounded spokes. Today's equivalent is nearer to an even 19 minutes on full aero gear deep rimmed wheels etc.. My best 25 mile is 53.41 under the same criteria.
For your information my training included doing intervals.
That was all a long time ago. Now I'm riding again. Thank you for your good wishes but I don't think I need any luck and I think I can safely say that it is quite logical for me to follow a training regime that did it for me once before, and what's more is exactly the same in all but name as "discovered" by Johnny Come Lately sports scientists. 0 -
I dont doubt your ability but that is aside from the basis of the argument. As I have said previously if ride your bike more you will get better - who is to say a more scientific approach would not produce even greater benefits. If you want to use your interpretation of the science that is out there good luck and I hope you win plenty more.
I cannot agree with some of your statements like -
"LT training is defined as the pace that you can sustain for a 25 mile TT."
There is no basis for this. Different riders can push themselves further so there is no consistency and hence no basis to your statement.
LT is linked to what is happening in the body with regard to how you are coping with the production of lactate acid - "The lactate threshold (LT) is the exercise intensity at which lactic acid starts to accumulate in the blood stream.". If you go to a lab you can identify the heart rate that this occurs at very accuratly if ride by feel your are estimating. Your LT interval training should be based on staying just below this. If you estimate on feel you can very easily be anerobic and limit your development. This is not to say that you will not improve more that scienctific studies prove you will not improve to the same dgree.
Also 25mile TT are ridden anerobically for the vast majority of people. My Lactate threshold is 173 and I ride 25mile TT at 184-186avg.0 -
I'd just like to say that I've enjoyed reading this post with some interesting points. It's made me think which is always a good thing.
Please continue It's all good.0
