Who is the minority?

misterben

I was wondering today - we talk a lot about the "bad" cyclists - RLJers, people with no lights, etc. - as if they are a minority in amongst a sea of "law-abiding" cyclists, but is this true? I seem to see a lot more of the bad than the good these days. What do you reckon?

DavidTQ

Tough call, on my commute I see mainly law abiding cyclists, but even there see the odd pavement rider or RLJ'er. But away from my commute I see tons without lights or riding the pavements etc etc.

I think over all I see more bad cyclists than law abiding ones .

I think most of the "bad" cyclists I see are probably under 25, the older commuters I see on the roads between towns whilst doing my commute seem pretty clued up and probably cycle longer distances.

I think its probably the difference between the casual "havent got a car yet cyclist" and the commited "I choose to cycle instead of drive" cyclist.

ChrisLS

...very difficult to answer this one...I really have to think about this...will keep a watchout going home and coming in tomorrow, although I don't see that many cyclists round this way...

chrisinnorfolk

i voted for illegal cyclist being the minority, although accept that my view is only of cyclists in rural north norfolk

clanton

Tough call but overall I think I see more cyclists breaking the law than abiding by it - riding on pavements, no lights, RLJ etc.
Last week I was stopped at a red light when three cyclists went past, one through the red light and two "around" it on the pavement!
Agree though that the more committed looking commuters ie proper cycling kit, better bikes et tend to have lights (and a helmet :-) ) and more of this group IMO obey the law than don't.

iainment

I suppose I'm an illegal given that if the way is clear I will RLJ but the other transgressions ain't me sir. I always am well lit up and never go on the path or wrong way on a one way etc.

However I don't feel as if I'm doing anything wrong and I don't think it makes any difference in the long run. I suspect that even if every cyclist kept to the letter of the law there would still be considerable bad blood from car drivers as they are venting their frustration on something they think is further down the pecking order than them.

:twisted:

Clever Pun

chrisinnorfolk wrote:

i voted for illegal cyclist being the minority, although accept that my view is only of cyclists in rural north norfolk

it's pretty tight in london... to the point where I don't think the word minority is actually valid anymore. given the massive influx of new cyclists every year more and more idiots are on the road spoiling reputations.

cyclists wont go through some red lights knowing they'll get run over...

il_principe

I reckon the bad cyclists are the minority in London, bunch of tits bouncing their way through red lights, across pavements etc.

dirk_van_gently

I think you have to ask the question what makes a cyclist?

on the face of it riding a bicycle.
However everyday I see idiots, no lights, sometimes on the road sometimes on the pavement, usually wearing a hi-vis jacket, the bike is a 69.99 special from the local garage, which they use to ride the mile or 2 to work and back, Nothing more.
They don't have light because they think they can save a few quid on lights and batteries, and have no interest in cycling other than getting to from work. Lets face it a decent set of lights would be about 15quid, that's almost 25% of the cost of the bike!
So are they cyclists?
Well yes of course they are, but their focus is different to ours. Let's face it cyclists have been getting away with No Lights for years, the Police have better things to worry about, especailly out in the "sticks". It's a case of education, pretty much the way that drinking and driving went from being semi acceptable to being unacceptable, No lights on bikes, and RLJ needs the same shift, as does Speeding, but that's another thread I guess.

Chrisinnorfolk, do I know you?

Matteeboy

My wife and I go out of our way to be "good cyclists" on our daily ten mile ride (work from home so it's a commute substitute!) yet seem to incur the wrath of motorists almost daily.

I'm IAM trained (Inst Adv Motorists) and also Police driver trained so not an anti car aggro rider.

Get beeped at for cycling to "wide" in the road and all sorts of other stuff ALL the time.

Some chav did it yesterday, I gave him the bird, he stopped angrily, I cycled straight for him, he bricked it and burnt off!

Truro is very very bike unfriendly overall.

pete236

From what I see on my trip to college (Maidenhead to Langley down the A4) is that law abiding cyclists are few and far between.
I don't always abide strictly by the rules, but I make sure I have good lights and keep off the pavement as much as possible. If there's a set of traffic lights which I know take a long time to go green then I will hop onto the pavement providing there's no-one walking. There is one particular stretch of road that is downright dangerous to a cyclist, involving up to three lanes and a dual carriageway roundabout - unless it deserted I will go on the pavement to avoid it.
The number of other youngsters, not so youngsters and even those with look of an older more experienced commuter with no lights, dark clothes, no reflectors anywhere is huge! Then there are those who ride down the pavements with no hands and just push past pedestrians - so rude!

pst88

I usually try to be law abiding, always obeying red lights, zebra crossings etc. Today I was riding along and I caught up with 2 other cyclists. We were on a road where it's one way for cars but cyclists can go either way, going against the flow of cars. At the bottom of that road there is a junction where there the cycle lane goes onto the pavement and there is a cycle crossing for bikes who want to turn right. I always use this facility but sometime see cyclists turning right when they really aren't supposed to be. These 2 cyclists in front of me decide to do an illegal right and seems as I'm right behind them I think "why the hell not" and I'm ashamed to say I followed them through. Needless to say it resulted in a near miss with a car and lots of angry beeping. These (and now me unfortunately) are the kind of people who give us a bad name. I know now I'll never try that again because there really is no need and all it saves is about 30-60 seconds waiting for the light to change.

edit: spelling

prj45

I voted illegal.

Ths is based on what I reckon is about 70% of cyclists who will go through a red light if its safe to do so, but I reckon and about 2% are total tssrs who will go through if its not, (i.e. buzz pedestrians who are crossing properly, make people going through green slow down or even swerve to avoid).

I don't often see people cycling on the pavement, but when I do its usually because they have no lights and obviously feel safer there, which is not nice for people using the pavement at all.

However, most (99%) of cyclist I see display lights, in fact, I get the strong impression that there's a competition going on, in which some people go to extremes....

luke2792

I have never seen anyone jump red lights

although i have seen many a person riding on the pavements, everyone seems to be scared of the cars and chooses to ride on the pavements to avoid them and pester pedestrians.

Personally I have never jumped a red and have only cycled on the pavement to skip a huge traffic jam when there were no pedestrians around

A friend of mine was almost run down by a cyclist he hadn't seen cos he didn't have any lights on his bike and no vis jacket - even small leds to alert other ppl to ur presence is better than none

clanton

Saw a red light jumper tonight - in a car! She was sat at the lights waiting and then suddenly seemed to get cheesed off and went through them!

prj45

clanton wrote:

Saw a red light jumper tonight - in a car! She was sat at the lights waiting and then suddenly seemed to get cheesed off and went through them!

I've seen this before on quiet back streets, its rare, but it does happen.

I pulled up at a light that was about to go red the other night, sound of revving being me, light goes red, van goes through at quite a speed anout half a second later, pedestrains who had already stepped off the kerb jumped back

"Its only cyclists that go through red lights" I said, everybody smiled (apart from the ones that had s**t themselves).

Van driver who was in such a hurry that he was willing tio kill passed at the next set of lights.

ChrisLS

...well I had a count up this morning, didn't see any cyclists going home last night, and it is about 50/50, but I have to say those without lights were either on the pavement or cycle tracks...so I can't really vote...sorry :?

iainf72

I'm an ex-bike commuter but still have a look at this forum for fun. If I can grow so balls I might start cycling in again this year but we'll see.

Anyway, I think the view changes considerably if you're off the bike for any length of time. My impression from waiting at the bus stop / walking on the pavement is that MOST cyclists RLJ and / or ride on the pavement. I used to get wound up about people saying all cyclists go through red because I never did it but I now understand why they say it. Probably I notice the bad behaviour more and don't credit the people who do stop.

I did see some people stop outside Cannon St last night but that might have been because of the 2 coppers sitting there.

el_presidente

iainf72 wrote:

I'm an ex-bike commuter but still have a look at this forum for fun. If I can grow so balls I might start cycling in again this year but we'll see.

Anyway, I think the view changes considerably if you're off the bike for any length of time. My impression from waiting at the bus stop / walking on the pavement is that MOST cyclists RLJ and / or ride on the pavement. I used to get wound up about people saying all cyclists go through red because I never did it but I now understand why they say it. Probably I notice the bad behaviour more and don't credit the people who do stop.

I did see some people stop outside Cannon St last night but that might have been because of the 2 coppers sitting there.

I cycle past Cannon St and I always stop

Belv

If we are talking STRICTLY Law-abiding then they must be the minority - how many can say that they never break the law by taking advantage of the at least one of the unique qualities of cycle commuting?

I certainly can't.

After a while of doing any activity, i think people create their own rules regarding acceptable behaviour. For example, I do not consider myself a danger to pedestrians despite using several section of pavement in a days commute. I will certainly slow down and often stop on the odd occasion peds are actually around and thank them if they feel the need to move out of my way. Today i (was on the mtb and) cycled over a foot bridge. I never do if there is anyone on it, but it is still against the law. Do i ever go through red lights? Not if i'm on the road, but i usually ignore the one on the cycle path. I have been known to cycle without lights when the batteries have run out and will usually use pavements then too. One of my pedal reflectors has fallen off too, which makes my bike illegal.[/b]

DavidTQ

prj45 wrote:

clanton wrote:

Saw a red light jumper tonight - in a car! She was sat at the lights waiting and then suddenly seemed to get cheesed off and went through them!

I've seen this before on quiet back streets, its rare, but it does happen.

I pulled up at a light that was about to go red the other night, sound of revving being me, light goes red, van goes through at quite a speed anout half a second later, pedestrains who had already stepped off the kerb jumped back

"Its only cyclists that go through red lights" I said, everybody smiled (apart from the ones that had s**t themselves).

Van driver who was in such a hurry that he was willing tio kill passed at the next set of lights.

I have a scene burned into my brain of an accident I witnessed once, Driving a car pulling up in the filter lane to turn right behind one of these smaller 4x4's the guy was at the front of the queue and was revving his engine and having a animated conversation with the ambulance driver next to him in the left lane to go straight ahead. The lights change for the left lane but the filter lane light doesnt light up the 4x4 guy manages an impressive amount of wheel spin and shoots across right past 2 lanes of oncoming traffic for whom the lights were green. He narrowly (by inches) avoids a collision there whilst causing some lock ups etc.

I move forward wait for the filter light which came on when the two lanes you have to cross to turn right had been stopped by a red, and lo and behold theres mr 4x4 stopped by the next red light I pulled up behind him at the lights which were at a cross roads crossing another major road, lights have obviously been red a while as I had to wait for the filter lane to be able to get behind him.

All of a sudden the guy clearly fed up of waiting at the light and having not learnt a thing from his earlier near miss guns his engine and takes off with another wheel spinflat out straight into the side of some poor woman in a nova salloon, unfortunately the cross roads was somewhat blind the traffic lights stopped you a little way before the junction and the road he pulled into was a 40 limit, there just wasnt enough visibility to assure that by the time he started crossing the major road no car could be there. The nova sallon was being driven perfectly normally when it entered my field of vision, the guy just slammed into it with the full force of acceleration the nova spun round 180 degrees both the passenger side doors came off and the boot was demolished and the 4x4 carried on a few feet before slamming on his brakes and coming to a halt.

I waited for the lights to turn green crossed the junction pulled to the side of the road luckily this was literally down the road from the hospital by time the lights had turned green I had already seen someone call the emergency services, I parked up, checked up on the state of the drivers, miss nova salloon was physically unhurt but clearly in a complete state of shock stumbling and hysterical, but with no obvious external injuries. The 4x4 driver was sat with his head in his hands in his car and not getting out not even to check the other driver was ok. I waited around for the ambulance which was there in no time and then for the police to whom I gave my name and address as a witness.

I was actually surprised that they didnt want a statement there and then, and later I just had to fill out a written statement without even a police presence. I never heard anymore about the accident.

I had never been one for red light jumping even before that, but it certainly made me appreciate red light jumpers a lot less from then on, even though I wasnt a cyclist at the time. Seeing what the woman in the nova sallon went through on the scene was horrible, Ive never seen someone in that sort of state before, I could only imagine it was a life changeing event for her. Just seeing the force of the accident and the after shock had a very strong impact on me on the importance of red light observation, I was never someone who would run a red light anyway, but that really strongly reinforced that view.

The guy couldnt see the oncoming car but nothing had passed the junction for a while when he made his move...

georgee

Law abiders In the minority, but only just.

I don’t think you can just say that it is part time/young cyclists behaving like ejits out there, you can see from my thread about my incident the other day, it was someone on a grands worth of kit with reasonable lighting still ploughed through the lights and almost took out pedestrians on a crossing. These people are a common site.

But that said I turn right at a junction you’re not allowed on Oxford Circus 500 yards from the office and more than occasionally go through the subsequent red light when the crossing is not green for pedestrians at the end of my 14 mile commute. But that still makes me a hypocrite.

kieranb

oh well, on my commute into central london the RLJs (I include thsoe who continuously edge out into the junction whilst they may not completely cross the road prior to the light going green) are in a clear majority, rarely see pavement riding though, and if I do usually by young guys ( the no lights, helmet etc crowd). granted I am not strictly legal myself as pedal reflectors on my left pedal have fallen off and I don't have front and rear reflectors (but I do wear high viz ankle bands, gillet and use a lumicyle front light and the brightest cateye rear light available).

I must admit I never really feel in any danger waiting at the lights so I don't really understand those who say its safer to RLJ. Safe roads also depend on users being predictable so that others can plan their own actions, I think many would now consider cyclists (in central london at least) as to be an unpredictable variable in their commute. I've had a few near misses on my bike with other cyclists (for example drafting right behind me and then when I stop at a zebra crossing or junction they almost rear end me, cyclists puling out against the lights to turn left when I am coming striaght on and they miss judge my speed).

(Commuter, racer, utility cyclist and I can't drive)

misterben

Given that I'm the OP, I reckon I should post something. Here in Glasgow I reckon I see more "illegal" cyclists than not, which makes me sad. The whole "it's safer to RLJ" is rubbish, I reckon. People do it because they can't be bothered to wait, in the same way that people don't obey speed limits in their cars.

There are also a huge number of people in Glasgow riding without lights. I guess they think they can be seen because the roads are lit anyway, but I think that's playing with fire, personally.

Ultimately, it makes me worry, because it means that the car drivers are right - cyclists are mostly bad. (Of course, a majority of motorists are probably equally bad, but that's another story) Is it possible to reverse this trend?

DavidTQ

misterben wrote:

Given that I'm the OP, I reckon I should post something. Here in Glasgow I reckon I see more "illegal" cyclists than not, which makes me sad. The whole "it's safer to RLJ" is rubbish, I reckon. People do it because they can't be bothered to wait, in the same way that people don't obey speed limits in their cars.

There are also a huge number of people in Glasgow riding without lights. I guess they think they can be seen because the roads are lit anyway, but I think that's playing with fire, personally.

Ultimately, it makes me worry, because it means that the car drivers are right - cyclists are mostly bad. (Of course, a majority of motorists are probably equally bad, but that's another story) Is it possible to reverse this trend?

Theres a couple of interesting points, I have never seen the supposed safety benefit from any of the RLJ'ers Ive seen. Just plain impatience.

But I actually believe despite the fact that there maybe many "bad" cyclists out there I actually believe that the proportion of dangerous and illegal cyclists is actually lower than dangerous and illegal motorists! Whilst boy racers may be highly visible, the number of motorists who never break the speed limits are insignificant. The percentage of drivers who wont straddle or cross solid white lines to overtake a bicycle doing 15 mph is truelly microscopic even if they are just heading for the back of a queue of traffic. Actually reckon that despite the numbers of cyclists who are doing things wrong, the numbers for motorists would probably be higher.

I know for myself Im more likely to do something wrong in car than on a bike. I know for a fact that I would break speed limits in a heart beat in a car. On a bike I feel more compelled to "be better" to do it right etc, because I stand out, I'm vulnerable and I know many drivers see me as a rolling obstical. Im better on a bike than in a car because I know that just being on a cycle puts me in conflict with other road users and Ive got to be prepared to stand my ground and back up my actions, I never read the highway code after passing my driving test, since cycling I can point people to rule numbers covering situations from memory....

Belv

If you define 'bad' as 'not in complete compliance with the law', then virtually every road user is such. All motor vehicle drivers speed, have moments lacking 'due care and attention' and i can guarantee that tonight i will see at least one car run a red light at a particular junction.

Cyclists will always be seen as bad since they are a minority road group. Motorcyclists, van drivers, HGV drivers, old people, women, sales reps, chelsea tractors, boy racers are all also seen as bad when the right trigger is pressed. Similarly all these minority groups blame car drivers (or the other car drivers) for all problems on the road. No, there is no way to reverse this trend.

chrisinnorfolk

Dirk Van Gently

i doubt it

Parkey

I would never run a red light under normal circumstances, partly because it's dangerous to do so, but mostly because it's the law.

However, once I did cycle through a red light. It was at a t-junction in central Oxford at about 6am. I'd been sat waiting for the lights to change for a couple of minutes, having not seen another vehicle at all during this time, when it occured to me that I'd probably not tripped the sensor and that the lights would remain red for me indefinately. I looked both ways and continued my journey.

Does that make me a bad cyclist?

DavidTQ

Parkey wrote:

I would never run a red light under normal circumstances, partly because it's dangerous to do so, but mostly because it's the law.

However, once I did cycle through a red light. It was at a t-junction in central Oxford at about 6am. I'd been sat waiting for the lights to change for a couple of minutes, having not seen another vehicle at all during this time, when it occured to me that I'd probably not tripped the sensor and that the lights would remain red for me indefinately. I looked both ways and continued my journey.

Does that make me a bad cyclist?

I would say probably not Ive actually been in a car once where the lights were stuck on red, permanently It was about 3am that they broke and stuck on red, I was driving around for laughs with a few friends, so we waited and we waited a good couple of hours messing around at a set of lights permanently on red. Im not sure but I think a police car eventually turned up and told us it was ok to go through, I wasnt actually being THAT finicky about following the law it was just something Iwas doing under normal circumstances id wait till Iwas SURE it was broken before proceeeding with extreme caution.

Im not sure about other areas and all traffic light systems, but im pretty sure the lights down this way even the sensor triggered ones have a default change time after which they WILL change reagardless of sensors just in case. But obviously any technical equipment can fail.

If you dont want to run a suspected broken \ non triggering red light on a bike you have the option to dismount push past it and then remount after it. Possibly unnecesary at 6am in the morning on a quiet road, but possibly sensible at other times.

pete236

Well, if I'd been counting the number of illegal cyclists I've seen tonight, I'd have run oout of fingers! One bloke, dark bike, dark clothes, no reflectors, no lights - jumping on and off the pavement without looking for cars or pedestrians and jumped two red lights, in Slough in mid rush hour. Totally nuts! Nearly had me off as well! Didn't get him anywhere either, overtook him on the next stretch and gave him a dirty look and he didn't even notice! Un - beLIEVE-able!

magicroundabout

My experience, as pedestrian, cyclist and driver; living in a big city and a medium-sized town; is that the vast majority of cyclists I see on the road are unsafe. And I deliberately use the word "unsafe" rather than "illegal" because I think it's a better way to judge: I see people doing stupid stuff legally, and I see people doing perfectly safe things illegally.

Among the infringements on my "unsafe" list would be:
- dark clothes
- no lights
- cycling on the pavement
- cycling wrong way up one way street
- cycling with crazy luggage (shopping bags on handlebars for instance)
- using mobile phone

I've rarely seen people jump lights, but I have seen fully-kitted-out road cyclists on expensive bike do this as well as amateur's/kids. And I did nearly get run over by a cyclist who charged through a red light on a pedestrian crossing at great speed.

None of us are perfect, but the vast majority of people I see aren't even making an effort.

What should we think of people who cycle unsafely? Is it good that they're cycling, regardless of how they're doing it?

MR