BBC1 21:00 tonight

Jakes Dad

sean65 wrote:

hamboman wrote:

Um, is anyone else noticing the irony here? Yes, you sound really polite, pushing people off their bikes, nice one - vigilante justice at its very best.

"Upset by the smallest incidents"? What, like being "startled"? That clearly required instant vengeance in the form of GBH.

Startled was understated. This poor old woman froze and shook like a jelly as the cyclist skidded towards her. If she'd have had a weak heart she could well have suffered more serious consequences than just the fright she got.

I don't make a habit of vigilante behavior but this particular guy was bang out of line not only in what he did but the attitude he showed afterwards.

If this had of been a Car driver and Sean kicked the car or punched the driver you'd be patting him on the back and saying well done, but because it's someone on a bicycle that does something that you do "It's Bang Out of Order" ? That old lady is someone's Mum or Gran and deserves some respect and any self respecting bloke would've done exactly the same as Sean did (or worse) to the Tw@t on the bike that jumped the red light ... the programme stated that 4 children were knocked down by cyclist's jumping red lights and hitting them ? it's a bloody shame their is'nt more people like Sean around

Simon

chilledsandwich

flybywire wrote:

Missed this prog'..

just checked http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer & it doesn't appear to be there.

Only TopGear & question time etc
:? :

For those of you that missed it, there is a torrent to download so that you can see it.
Clicky

To download this you will need a torrent client such as Azureus. Am downloading it now, don't know what quality is like, but from a reputable uploader so should be good.

Any probs, PM me

alfablue

flybywire wrote:

Missed this prog'..

just checked http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer & it doesn't appear to be there.

Only TopGear & question time etc
:? :

I think they are putting out about 400 hours per week, so not all of their output, plus some programmes are not available because of rights issues. Still, it is a brilliant service even with its limitations.

Clever Pun

sean65 wrote:

Clever Pun wrote:

he he was bothered it could get you charged with assault... but he'd be a pansy, a man would have got up and chinned you.

Wrong. A man would have stopped at the lights and not shouted abuse at the pensioner.

Look, I see about a 100 cyclists a day go through red lights, it normally is dangerous but no one gets hurt. This guy got what he deserved and a lot of abuse from other people as he got up. He didn't have a leg to stand on. Was it necessary? No. Was it justified? Who care's.

In central London I cycle, ride motorbikes and drive cars. I don't have the pleasure of being so single minded that I can only see one point of view. But whatever transport I'm on I have to be aware of what's around me and to do this on a bike it means swinging your head round now and then. There's a lot of bad attitude cyclists that don't look before the cross the road in front of cars etc to make a right turn. There's a lot of four wheeled transport that tries to take me down when i'm cycling.

The 'them and us' mentality is crap. The truth is that there are loads of dickheads out there driving cars, taxi's, buses, lorries and bicycles.

jeez should have put a little ' ' for you there

but you're right, w@nkers drive all sorts of vehicles

cupofteacp

Jakes Dad
I agree that if you endanger someone you should be punished, but please remember that although 4 children were knocked down, how many were killed, and also how many where crossing incorrectly.
Also put into the mix that it seems OK to kill a cyclist and get away with it, did the lorry driver get a kicking? or even pushed off his bike.

With news that the offence of causing death by careless driving is to have the maximum sentence dropped from 14 years to 5 and that most drivers who kill should expect no more than community service, I just wonder what is happening.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7178120.stm

alfablue

cupofteacp wrote:

With news that the offence of causing death by careless driving is to have the maximum sentence dropped from 14 years to 5 and that most drivers who kill should expect no more than community service, I just wonder what is happening.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7178120.stm

The offence is a new one, Causing death by dangerous driving will still exist, so in reality the sentence isn't being reduced, rather a new offence is added to the statute books. On the one hand this seems sensible as death by dangerous driving is apparently very hard to prove, and the fall back is the offence of careless driving, which offers minimal scope for sentencing beyond points and fines. On the other hand, I think the new offence is conflating the seriousness of the offence with the seriousness of the outcome - for example, two car drivers could suffer the same momentary distraction, one mounts the pavement and hits no one and is done for careless driving, whilst another who's actions are exactly the same, has the misfortune to kill a pedestrian and faces a severe sanction. Justice should IMHO be based upon the nature of the act, and its motivation, rather than by the outcome.

cupofteacp

Alfa I don't think they are the same

Not paying attention on an empty road is not the same as not paying attention outside a school.

Anyway I think the reason motorists are getting angry, has more to do to with the overcrowded transport system than with anything else.

They see the adverts and think they'll be driving a lovely car down empty roads, what they get is a traffic jam getting into the local supermarket or getting to work, and they see people around them "doing better", bigger cars, better cars, driving up the inside, cutting them up etc... etc....
And then into the middle of this you ride in, and as far as their concerned why should you be allowed on their roads, you don’t pay tax, and you don’t sit in the traffic like they do. You’re not obeying their rules, you’re not part of their tribe. When they do get to drive off from the lights, you’re in front of them, slowing them down. What are you doing? Stop getting in the way.

Everyone is against the motorist; it’s just not fair.

redddraggon

cupofteacp wrote:

you don’t pay tax,

Income tax, council tax, (doesn't council tax pay for the roads anyway?)

alfablue

cupofteacp wrote:

Alfa I don't think they are the same

Not paying attention on an empty road is not the same as not paying attention outside a school.

Point taken, but I was just making the point that, all other things being equal, the offence and thus sentencing is determined merely upon the consequences rather than the level of criminality or volition of the act itself. On the radio this morning a magistrate made the point that this scenario (all other things being equal) was used as a training scenario (prior to the new offence) to teach appropriate sentencing based on the act itself, thus making judgements consistent.

Don't get me wrong, I am no apologist for inattentive motorists, but at the lower end of the spectrum, we could be talking about simple human error. At the other end, there are drivers that regularly drive with excessive speed and inadequate care, and in that case I would throw the book at them, however the court may not be able to establish this distinction.

Jakes Dad

cupofteacp wrote:

Anyway I think the reason motorists are getting angry, has more to do to with the overcrowded transport system than with anything else.

you’re not part of their tribe.

Jakes Dad
I agree that if you endanger someone you should be punished, but please remember that although 4 children were knocked down, how many were killed, and also how many where crossing incorrectly.
Also put into the mix that it seems OK to kill a cyclist and get away with it, did the lorry driver get a kicking? or even pushed off his bike.

Couple of good points here Cup of Tea ... The motorist pays through the nose to be on the road these days and it seems that the more we have to pay the less we seem to get ! every where you look on the roads there is another Tax to pay whether its Vehicle Tax - Tax on the Fuel - Toll Roads - Congestion Charge - or Speeding Fines it all adds up

The programme had a definate " Them & Us " feel about it, the cyclist hate the motorist and the motorist hate the cyclist ? This was very apparent on the Critical Mass Rides ... I felt sorry for the couple that were in the Range Rover but fair play to the driver he remained patient and calm (im not sure i would of)

I've got no idea whether any of the 4 kids were crossing properly or not ? and mistakes happen on the road but had the guy in Sean's post been appologetic instead of abusive i would'nt have defended the post ... if you make a mistake, hold your hands up and say your Sorry !

As for the Girl being Killed by the lorry ... i could'nt see by the CCTV footage whether he had overtaken the cyclist or whether she had ridden up the inside of him ? but the general feeling on this thread is that he had overtaken her ? if this is the case then the Lorry Driver should be serving a life sentence he is a professional driver so should be dealt with in a harsher way than a regular car driver the fact that he did'nt recieve any form of punishment is just " Sickening " ...

Simon

simon_e

Jakes Dad wrote:

The motorist pays through the nose to be on the road these days

Motorists cause the most pollution, the most damage to roads (requiring maintenance), property (requiring repair), lives (hospitalisation, surgery, physio, medicine, post mortem, cremation, police accident investigation)..... is it any wonder they should be taxed appropriately?

The programme dealt with issues surrounding the shared use of urban roads, not taxation. What I did like was the point that car drivers have had it all their own way so far. Yes they have, look where it's got us - streets choked with Chelsea Tractors, horn beepers and cyclist-crushing HGV pilots, and it's not an equitable state of affairs.

High fuel prices reflect not only taxation policy but world markets and economies and, increasingly, government's desire to appear to tax the polluters. So perhaps car drivers are paying something nearer the true cost (to the environment and others) of the damage they cause. Congestion Charge? The name says it all. If too many people want the same thing then there's a problem.

At least cyclists were generally only accused of RLJ'ing and holding up a small part of central London's traffic once a month on a Friday evening.

sean65

My post seems to have caused as much controversy as the program.

Firstly I don't condone rage of any kind. I accept that it was reactionary 'pedestrian rage' but given that it may not have happened if the woman was younger, didn't get such a fright and the cyclist didn't have such an aggressive attitude, it may well not have happened.

We've all seen what's happening in society where the police can't cope, people are scared to deal with things and as such, anti-social behavior is rife. It's all relative. We live in a nanny state where we're afraid to even use our own language through fear of offending people.

Everything that happens on our roads is all being monitored by specialist groups who will use the information to the governments and local authorities advantage. And the bad attitude road users are playing into their hands with their blatant disregard for the law and before we know it we'll have some stupid license scheme introduced that will make us more accountable, as cyclist, for our actions. Inevitably, that will mean fines and insurance etc.

People need to understand the concept of shared space. The key issue from my initial post was that people are becoming more and more selfish.

Seeing as we have a government that are expert in passing crap law's (like today confusing announcement) it's only a question of time before we're going to be hit by some financial burden.

Enjoy it while it's free. :?