Greg Lemonds view on Training
Comments
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I wouldn't stress too much on %MHR zones if you've determined them from 220-Age, use them as a guide. I started on 85-90% last week and I'll start upping that based on feel in an attempt to find a sort of threshold for 2x20 sessions.0
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2 x 20 mins - I'd say at an effort that you can just manage - the last half of number 2 is hard - mentally. Somewhere close to you TT effort but remember you're doing 2 back to back!
Anything less isn't worth doing but you can break initial efforts up a bit as I suggested earlier. Others might think otherwise of course
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SteveR_100Milers wrote:Toks (and anyone else) what effort do you put in for a 2x20? Flat out 10TT pace or anyhitng above a min heart rate?
I ask, because I really cannot come to terms with any sustained intensive riding on a turbo...I'd rather cut my legs off to be honest; therefore my "2x20" training is done by climbing long hill such as those used in the dragon ride which take a similar time. There is only one way tom climb them and thats at my LT - I find it so much easier to sit at 90%MHR or thereabouts on the road up a hill that I do at 80% on a turbo.
I cant imagine that doing 2x20's at less than 85% MHR is any use, or rather has any really significant training effect (unless you do 4x20's..?) My weekday 1 hour rides are all done at an average (from door to door including warm up) 80-85% MHR. If I look at my training log, I average around 6 hours a week, of which only 1 to 1.5 is zone 2 60-70%, about 2 hours 80-90% and about 15-30 mins >90% (which is where the track is useful). Even if I try to back off on the road, I struggle to keep below 75%
It must be a Valley boy mentality because I feel exactly the same way and I am going to do exactly the same as you suggested, in fact wasn't it my idea you've pinched by doing them on a famous hill not too far away?. :roll:
Just to start a fire here, are you guys that are doing 2x20's on the turbo really doing them at the right intensity to get any gains? For me there is no way I can get any sort of intensity in them where as on the road it's so much easier and on a hill I don't even have to think about it.0 -
Can't speak for the turbo guys, but I can get plenty of intensity on rollers at 100rpm in the right gear. I'd imagine with variable resistance on a turbo it would be easy to max out.0
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Not a guy!
(and yes I can focus better on turbo than on road in some ways - at least I can be fairly sure no car will hit me or dog run out!)
but a nice steady hill would be ok, except mine are often snowy dark etc at this time of year. the sun went down 40 mins ago!!)0 -
Also not a guy, but yes.chrisw12 wrote:Just to start a fire here, are you guys that are doing 2x20's on the turbo really doing them at the right intensity to get any gains?
Ruth0 -
:oops:
You know I ment 'guy' in a loose sense.
Guy, as in hard working, really talented, beautiful people of both sex.
I feel that I've just dug a little further so I'll stop. :oops:0 -
Just kidding Chris. In some ways I feel it's an honour to be considered 'one of the guys'. 
Ruth0 -
ps. hard working, talented and beautiful? I didn't know you knew me so well.
Ruth0 -
chrisw12 wrote:
It must be a Valley boy mentality because I feel exactly the same way and I am going to do exactly the same as you suggested, in fact wasn't it my idea you've pinched by doing them on a famous hill not too far away?. :roll:
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Not neccesarily....I just did a hilly route (as most Tuesdays) with Ross CC mates and gave myself a good pasting. But yes you are right...the rhigos and bwlch are going to be my staple sunday run, and come April on aero bars....0 -
chrisw12 wrote::oops:
You know I ment 'guy' in a loose sense.
Guy, as in hard working, really talented, beautiful people of both sex.
I feel that I've just dug a little further so I'll stop. :oops:
Might change my name to not a guy!0 -
ut_och_cykla wrote:chrisw12 wrote::oops:
You know I ment 'guy' in a loose sense.
Guy, as in hard working, really talented, beautiful people of both sex.
I feel that I've just dug a little further so I'll stop. :oops:
Might change my name to not a guy! To a an name that anyone might understand would be good 0 -
SteveR_100Milers wrote:ut_och_cykla wrote:chrisw12 wrote::oops:
You know I ment 'guy' in a loose sense.
Guy, as in hard working, really talented, beautiful people of both sex.
I feel that I've just dug a little further so I'll stop. :oops:
Might change my name to not a guy! To a an name that anyone might understand would be good
Yeah like bahzbob or toks or klassiker summat
All Swedes would understand my 'name' infact most scandinavians. They would also understand the joke which I will explain...
ut och cykla means 'out cycling' BUT it also means a sort of 'off her rocker'
which when the kids answer the phone and say 'she's ut och cykla' gives everyone who knows me a laugh and everyone who doesn't a moment of hesitation...
so now you know! I'm off my rocker0 -
Thanks for the explanation, ut_och_cykla, I'd often wondered but never asked what your name meant.
Maybe a few more of us should be called ut_och_cykla?
Ruth0 -
I always use the term "guys" in the context of the forum as meaning both male and female. Some of the more abstract user names still indicate whether or not they are of male or female gender. However if it is in a non English language then like most on here i haven't got a clue unless you can tell from the person's posts.
Your English is very good so I take it you are from an English speaking background0 -
Back to the training guys, and girls, and here is my take on it.
Just because some pro is racking up seven hour rides doesn't mean you should copy. Indeed, copy the training regime of an elite full time rider is probably a very bad idea if you just want a strong ride in the Etape. You might come back tired from a long ride but often that's just because you've depleted the glycogen in your body and so you're running on empty. Whether you've stressed the cardio and muscular side is another thing, you might not achieve much training-wise.
But you can learn from the pros. Many are not going out for 4-6 hours just to potter around. They will included structured parts to the ride. So you start with a warm-up section, then you up the pace to a particular intensity, say 80% MHR or n watts for a while. Then maybe some hill work in a specific gear. Then more steady riding. Then work on your acceleration. Then a wind down before doing some motor-paced work. They're doing several rides in one go.
Once they're home, they can download all their data and compare it to previous sessions. Similarly, you can compare the time taken on particular hills etc.
Apart from the social side, there's no point doing 4 hours at a soft pace, chatting to friends. You won't be riding the Etape at this rate, will you? So aim to use hills or stretches on your way back to up the pace.
Anyway, I'll defer to the pro coaches on here, I'd like to know their opinion on this.0 -
Kléber wrote:Back to the training guys, and girls, and here is my take on it.
Just because some pro is racking up seven hour rides doesn't mean you should copy. Indeed, copy the training regime of an elite full time rider is probably a very bad idea if you just want a strong ride in the Etape. You might come back tired from a long ride but often that's just because you've depleted the glycogen in your body and so you're running on empty. Whether you've stressed the cardio and muscular side is another thing, you might not achieve much training-wise.
But you can learn from the pros. Many are not going out for 4-6 hours just to potter around. They will included structured parts to the ride. So you start with a warm-up section, then you up the pace to a particular intensity, say 80% MHR or n watts for a while. Then maybe some hill work in a specific gear. Then more steady riding. Then work on your acceleration. Then a wind down before doing some motor-paced work. They're doing several rides in one go.
Once they're home, they can download all their data and compare it to previous sessions. Similarly, you can compare the time taken on particular hills etc.
Apart from the social side, there's no point doing 4 hours at a soft pace, chatting to friends. You won't be riding the Etape at this rate, will you? So aim to use hills or stretches on your way back to up the pace.
Anyway, I'll defer to the pro coaches on here, I'd like to know their opinion on this.
IMO the social ride re the club run on a Sunday has an important role to play for those riders training for a sportive, during the period Jan-Mar. You are more likely to fulfill a scheduled 3/4/5 hour ride in the company of others when it's cold wet and windy than if going out on you're on your own.
There are going to be hills and drags on a long ride which raise the effort levels automatically, so to say that they are not achieving very much is misleading. Sitting in a saddle for hours at a time requires a physical adaptation in it's own right, which no amount of intensive intervals will give you. Plus you get used to riding in a group.
As long as you go out on your own or in a small group and increase the effort levels at other times then riding the longer slower rides are still doing you good.0 -
Are we not saying the same thing Mike, that steady slow riding isn't so useful, it's the moments when the effort goes up, on a hill or when you're on the front of the group, that the training benefits come?
For sure, long rides get you used to sitting on the bike, learning to feed yourself. I just wanted to warn people that coming back home tired doesn't alway mean you've had an effective training ride.
PS - no need to fill up the screen with my text using the quote function, we can all read it above!0 -
Can I interject with an incredibly stupid statement?
After reading my copy of Procycling (avid fan) and this thread, I decided to try intervals for the first time ever last night. I usually go out every sunday on a big long ride, more because i just love it than anything else, and i supplement that with 4-5 gym/running sessions a week in winter. I decided to get a cheap turbo, and tried the intervals suggested here. Working on a presumption my MHR is around 195, I set about doing the 2x20min at 85% (165bpm). My problem was i did not find this particularly challenging. When i went at it at 185bpm it really hurt, and i managed to do 4x5min intervals of this, interspersed with 5min intervals at 150-160bpm.
Two questions. Will this improve my riding? I found the 5 min intervals were coming some way to the feeling I had on ventoux at times last summer, so thought this must be good.
Second? Am I way off with my HR calculations? Were my 5min efforts at 185bpm actually my 85%HR level?
God it's all so confusingRobert Millar for knighthood0 -
Yes in answer to Kleber0
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alanmcn1: two things. First, when you ask "will it improve my riding", it depends on the riding you want to do. If you're goal is ride steadily, then it's useful but not brilliant. If your riding involves changes of pace or hard efforts, then yes it will help a lot.
Next, are you using a fan on the turbo? When you ride indoors there's no cooling breeze so your HR can drift upwards for a given effort. Think about buying a fan, or doing the turbo sessions in the garden (if it's not raining) /garage if you can. But you need to work out your MHR, guessing or calculating it isn't good as the 220 minus age formula is only a rule of thumb.0 -
alanmcn1 wrote:I set about doing the 2x20min at 85% (165bpm). My problem was i did not find this particularly challenging. When i went at it at 185bpm it really hurt, and i managed to do 4x5min intervals of this, interspersed with 5min intervals at 150-160bpm.
Two questions. Will this improve my riding? I found the 5 min intervals were coming some way to the feeling I had on ventoux at times last summer, so thought this must be good.
Second? Am I way off with my HR calculations? Were my 5min efforts at 185bpm actually my 85%HR level?
God it's all so confusing
You don't say whether or not you completed 2 x 20 minutes @ 165bpm. I assume that because it wasn't hurting then you increased your effort. But that increased effort was such that 5 minutes was enough.
I know that for me riding @ 85% of MHR for 20 minutes is sufficiently challenging so it could be that you have answered your own question here. Training for 2 x 20 minutes @ 165 bpm might be more challenging than you think.0 -
Yes
the first few minutes of 2 x 20 at 85%(if you're not a beginner) doesn't usually feel very taxing, but the last few of the first one feels like - well I'm going to get to the end but No2 will be hard to do. The last few minutes of No2 are 'I'm sure that clock has stopped, is this really only 85% etc. but once you're done its not Too bad. Only doing 5 mins will also help your cycling but if you're aiming at Ventoux longer hardet intervals are probably more help.
For anyone who is past the beginners stage of doing exercise 'guesstimating' your max is a bit daft. Either find out what it is or use another basis for your training levels eg max sustainable/feeling etc over 20 mins all out. 0 -
cheers guys. I did 1 x 20min at my percieved 85% and wasnt' finding it taxing. I am a fairly good cyclist, and have done a few cols, but am only just getting serious about training and actually improving my riding.
with regards to MHR, how do i actually determine it. I mean surely you can't exercise to your actual MHR, or it would just pop or stop? My figure was based on the fact that at 190-195 I am maxing out/seeing stars/ready to puke. Is this a decent indicatorRobert Millar for knighthood0 -
MHR - warm up, cycle hard, up hill, then sprint. when red mist clears... is the general protocol for MHR. It shouldn't pop or stop but obviously any heart problems will not appreciate such a protocol much. It's important not to let lactate bild up stop you before you max out, so teh last really hard bit needs to be fairly short. Google max heart rate test?
yes you can reach and exercise at the MHR but only fleetingly!
My guess would be that your max lies closer to 200 which means (if your threshold lies between 85 & 90% which as a already well-trained cyclist it may well do) 170-180 bpm. You know that you can't maintain 20 mins at 185 bpm - this also supports the idea you lie between 170-180. Experiment a bit - working up to doing 2x 20- try at 170 - too easy? 175?
You'll find it! And remember its a culmulative thing & the feeling is not the same as 4 x 5 mins! different pathways & enzymes etc.
Good luck0 -
Thanks alot.....................am going to try it out tomorrow (I'm affraid I have a nasty leg wobble today from the 4x5min)Robert Millar for knighthood0
