T-Mobile out

flattythehurdler

Has it ever occured to you Iain that the likely scenario is that T mobile is run by cycling dilettantes such as ourselves, who are just in a position to indulge their passions a bit more. They are primarily concerned with running a f@cking big business successfully, with thousands dependant upon them. The cycling is as much a perk as anything (there are other ways to spend that kind of money, but they get exposure and everyone wins). They are horrified to discover the level of endemic cheating in their beloved sport and team, but are not scientists or sportsmen, so they think carefully, and ask advice from others. They take the given advice and try with the limited time that they have to ensure that the team becomes drug free. They cannot take the blood or monitor it themselves. They like us generally believe people who tell them "facts" straight to their faces, life would be unbearabl otherwise. Said people are being at best economical with the truth and this drip drips out. Gradually their trust is eroded, and finally in despair they withdraw their support at great cost. They then get lambasted on fora like this by enthusiasts who may have been able to run the anti doping programme better largely because they wern't primarily concerned with running a major corporation.
I run a bike shop as a hobby, and I really haven't got the energy at the end of a day's work to do anything bar have a cup of tea with the lads on the way home. If the shop closed due to fraud because i hadn't kept a proper eye on it, would that be my fault or the fault of the fraudster/cheats?

skavanagh.bikeradar

G-Man I think you and most on this forum like to read about people who have read about people who know someone who fiddled with a bike that a Pro's girfriend rode. Or sumfink.

Flatty, I've no idea what you are on about there, but I like the sound of the cups of tea.

dave_1

G man wrote:

First discovery channel, now T mobile gone. That's a large amount of cash leaving the sport. I'm really disappointed that it's turned out like this. I'm biassed, becasue I'm a big fan of Wiggins, Cavendish and Hammond, but at least they should all still be riding for the new team. I wonder how this will sit with Ullrich and Zabel? I like them both , but they are partly responsible for this mess, and need to at least try to do something positive for the sport. They have become very rich from cheating, and I want to know what they are going to do to try to make amends to the sport and to the fans that have supported them over the years. Any other fraudster would have to repay their fraudulent earnings, and although this is a bit extreme, I think they need to do something positive. Lastly, I hope the new team kit is a nicer colour than Magenta.
But despite all this nonsense, cycling is booming here in England, and I'm seeing more and more road bikes out and about. The sponsors just need to find a way of tapping into the enthsusiasm that's out there. Obsessive people like myself just can't get enough of bikes, riding bikes, reading about bikes, fiddling with bikes, looking at people fiddling with bikes, reading about people riding bikes, watching people racing bikes, reading about people who fiddle with the bikes of people who race bikes, and reading about people who have spoken to people who know the doctors of the people who race bikes.
G man
A Bradley Wiggins fan

Ullrich, Riis, Zabel have been enriched through fraud ...it would be reasonable that they each put in money to the new team in place of T mobile as an apology...that would be reasonable...better than taking their wins away...

jimmythecuckoo

Just had this email from "Cycling Insider" the part of their website which is for fans.

Cycling-Insider Newsletter, fifteenth edition

Dear cycling fans,

It has not been an easy decision, but now it is made: After almost 17 years Deutsche Telekom has ended its sponsoring engagement for both T-Mobile teams.

Over the years we have seen both ups and downs – unfortunately too many downs during the last months which is why we have decided to withdraw from the cycle racing.

We would like to thank you very much for your trust and enthusiasm with which you supported the T-Mobile Team, followed the cycling world and made the Insider your community platform. It has been a lot of fun!

As of December 7, 2007 we will shut down the Cycling Insider. This will give you time to save and reorganize your personal contacts, data and information.

Our best wishes for all of you and the cycling sports!


The Cycling-Insider Team

socrates

Stapleton says there is enough money to run the team for two years without a major sponsor. However reduced wages and less races.

jimmythecuckoo

If they do well I suppose there is the possibility of attracting some sponsorship in.

iainf72

Audi have pulled their sponsorship too.

socrates

And Adidas

Langenberg

flattythehurdler wrote:

Gradually their trust is eroded, and finally in despair they withdraw their support at great cost.

You know, I think Flatty may be closer to the truth than most of us here.

I have had the same feeling with some riders. You like them, their style of riding or maybe just because they seem decent guys. Then doubts set in due to some dubious tests, there is an explanation which may or may not be correct (can't judge not being an expert), more dubious test follow. You would like to believe that all is ok but then you just give up and stop caring.

Schumacher comes to mind.

G man

Iain, I accept that if the "new" t mobile had done things differently, then this may not have happened. I doubt it though. The real damage was done with the revelations regarding Riis, Zabel , Ullrich and Aldag. They have all cheated their way to fame and fortune. Tearful apologies are not enough for me. It was very big of Riis to give back his yellow jersey. What a hero. Will he also be giving back his prize money, and sponsorship money he earned as a result of winning the Tour? I don't think so. The "old " T mobile have well and truly shafted all the new T mobile riders, and lined their pockets along the way. Stapleton hasn't broken any rules that I'm aware of, whereas the above riders have. I know who I blame, but everyone is entitled to their own opinion on it. You have to give some credit to Stapleton for sticking by the team, even when receiving so much criticism. When Mr Armstrong's team was left without a sponsor , he simply folded the team, leaving his riders looking for new teams, including one of his best friends. Nice.
G man
A Bradley Wiggins fan

iainf72

G man,

Who is Mr Armstrong's friend you refer to? If you mean Hincapie, his deal with T-Mobile was done before the Tour de France started some months before Discovery's demise.

Blaming Ris / Ullrich for the demise of T-Mobile as a sponsor is taking the easy option IMO and choosing to ignore some key facts. When d'Hont original story was published and all the confessions took place, T-Mobile toughed it out. That was before the Tour this year.

Sinkewitz is positive and they still maintain support.

However, when Sinkewitz sings like a canary things change. T-Mobile suddenly realise that Stapleton isn't delivering on what he's pedalling. Even worse he's maintaining links to the "bad time" through Aldag / Holms and his love affair with Zabel. Question marks over Rogers and the signing of Hincapie add to the general uneasyness.

A catch 22 situation - Get rid of Aldag and there is no way Stapleton can survive. Keep Aldag and the sponsor are off.

Blaming the riders of the old Telekom and T-Mobile is making it easy and not facing up to the fact that Stapletons tenure as boss of the team has been nothing short of disasterous.

ContrelaMontre

iainf72 wrote:

G man,

Who is Mr Armstrong's friend you refer to? If you mean Hincapie, his deal with T-Mobile was done before the Tour de France started some months before Discovery's demise.

Blaming Ris / Ullrich for the demise of T-Mobile as a sponsor is taking the easy option IMO and choosing to ignore some key facts. When d'Hont original story was published and all the confessions took place, T-Mobile toughed it out. That was before the Tour this year.

Sinkewitz is positive and they still maintain support.

However, when Sinkewitz sings like a canary things change. T-Mobile suddenly realise that Stapleton isn't delivering on what he's pedalling. Even worse he's maintaining links to the "bad time" through Aldag / Holms and his love affair with Zabel. Question marks over Rogers and the signing of Hincapie add to the general uneasyness.

A catch 22 situation - Get rid of Aldag and there is no way Stapleton can survive. Keep Aldag and the sponsor are off.

Blaming the riders of the old Telekom and T-Mobile is making it easy and not facing up to the fact that Stapletons tenure as boss of the team has been nothing short of disasterous.

I tend to agree with this version as it is not because of Riis or Zabel - their confessions came long ago and T-Mobile "toughed it out".

I'm not sure I'd apportion all the blame to Bob though. We don't know the internal dynamic of the team and I wonder if Bob has had the necessary support to implement real change - I'm not so sure he has.

With complete autonomy over Team High Road we should find out soon enough if he means what says...

DaveyL

So, the decisions Stapleton got wrong - are they as bad as the wrong decisions all the dopers made, when they decided to dope?

iainf72

ContrelaMontre wrote:

I'm not sure I'd apportion all the blame to Bob though. We don't know the internal dynamic of the team and I wonder if Bob has had the necessary support to implement real change - I'm not so sure he has.

He's the boss so ultimately the buck stops at his desk. T-Mobile gave him a budget to do something and he failed to deliver on it. If his internal team failed to perform that's bad management.

T-Mobile were trying to use the anti-doping message as marketing but it went horribly wrong.

ContrelaMontre

iainf72 wrote:

ContrelaMontre wrote:

I'm not sure I'd apportion all the blame to Bob though. We don't know the internal dynamic of the team and I wonder if Bob has had the necessary support to implement real change - I'm not so sure he has.

He's the boss so ultimately the buck stops at his desk. T-Mobile gave him a budget to do something and he failed to deliver on it. If his internal team failed to perform that's bad management.

T-Mobile were trying to use the anti-doping message as marketing but it went horribly wrong.

I agree the buck stops with the boss, but tankers take a long time to turn! He's probably 18 months into a 3 year process. But then you've always been quicker to judge our Bob than most - who knows you'll probably be proved right in the long run though.

iainf72

ContrelaMontre wrote:

I agree the buck stops with the boss, but tankers take a long time to turn! He's probably 18 months into a 3 year process. But then you've always been quicker to judge our Bob than most - who knows you'll probably be proved right in the long run though.

I've not been wrong yet. I'm not trying to be arrogant but what was going to happen was plain as day to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassandra_phenomenon

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

ContrelaMontre wrote:

I agree the buck stops with the boss, but tankers take a long time to turn! He's probably 18 months into a 3 year process. But then you've always been quicker to judge our Bob than most - who knows you'll probably be proved right in the long run though.

I've not been wrong yet. I'm not trying to be arrogant but what was going to happen was plain as day to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassandra_phenomenon

The thing is the likes of Ullrich...they didn't have much of a choice in the matter...show talent in a dope fueled sport and be forced quit, accept cheats win or dope and get what you know you would get clean..TDF wins...that is where my sympathy is with Jan...but he's caused the collapse of a team now and should speak out now and provide money for the new team...so should Riis and Zabel as they are the ones who sank T mobile, the leaders of it...Stapelton can be partly blamed...but it should be shared blame really as the ex T mob leaders have got away with the millions of quid from a team they've sank. Stapeleton didn't force them to take drugs

ContrelaMontre

Well I have little more to add on the subject!

:P

off the back

I dont think you will get Jan or anyone else handing over his cash ...I dont agree with doping at all, but just for a second put yourself in a riders shoes back in 1994 say.

For a start I bet Jan fells he is a victim in the whole mess.I think very few athletes want to dope. To them they buy into the mindset that the sport is corrupt and who am I to change it. Also unlike the 1980s it was possible to be clean and still win against dopers. In the 1990's this really was not an option.So A) I didnt make it this way these were teh rules when i started riding and everyone else is at it - If I dont dope then the only person that looses is me!!! The dopers will still be winning so me not doping achieves nothing. Therefore the sport corrupted me, I did not corrupt the sport.

So a rider with that mindset will say that I was piad by a team to do a job - that job included doping -I did my job and kept the team happy. Also I put my health and career on the line time and time again for the team therefore I have nothing to be sorry about and earned my money why should i give it back.

***** As a footnot to this argument it is clear that whole mess we have now rests at the feet of Verbruggen. He ran the sport into the ground in the 1990s and let drugs become an epidemic. Also there was no way out for a clean rider in elite cycling, hell there was barely a way out for elite U/23 riders! Anyone who did try to change it was ridiculed (Delion, Kimmage etc) by the UCI. Back then McQuaid was his right hand man so he must bare a lot of responsibility also!! I think McQuaid does see the light now and knows change is required but his motive is not driven by ethics but financial and to keep the sport alive. *****

How Verbrugggen made it to be president of the IOC is beyond me - what kind of message does that send ...?! For me he is up there with Ferrari etc

LangerDan

off the back wrote:

How Verbrugggen made it to be president of the IOC is beyond me - what kind of message does that send ...?! For me he is up there with Ferrari etc

He's not president of the IOC - he's only a committee member and TBH, bad and all as he is, he's probably a boy scout compared to some of the other members.

skavanagh.bikeradar

I wouldn't be so sure. But he's found a natural resting place for a certain type of sports administrator in the IOC juggernaut.

andyp

Don't forget he still has a position as vice-president of the UCI too. I've also heard he still has an office in their headquarters in Aigle.

iainf72

Barry's comments are interesting

http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/13736.0.html

Langenberg

Maybe old news by now (although I remember a discussion in this thread as to how much Stapleton is actually worth with answers somewhere between 50mio and VERY rich), but just seen an article which said that Forbes estimate his net worth at $1bn. Enough to run several cycling teams for a while methinks.