Overpriced cycle goods !!!

PhilofCas

Hello All,

Just wanted to start the ball rolling and get peoples opinions on why (in my view) we are being suckered into ever increasing prices for cycling goods (in general).

My opinion is that the ever increasing popularity of cycling is being abused by all and sundry (manufacturers/distributors/shops) to inflate prices and sadly people are being taken in by wanting the 'next best thing' / 'fad' etc, (some) people have the surplus money to be able to afford such items and this adds to the fire, unfortuantely for the rest of us, who perhaps don't have much disposable income, we feel we're being cheated, i know i do.

A couple of examples just highlighted by recent tests, lights and gloves, the Dinotte 200L front light at £155, is it REALLY worth that ??? and Pearl Izumi AmFIB Lobster gloves at £40.99, come on, lets get real, we're having the p*ss taken out of us, surely.

Please feel free to agree or disagree !!

flattythehurdler

The dinotte is worth every penny. I have a dinotte rear light, and an exposure enduro turbo on the front which was even more expensive, and is perhaps my wisest cycling purchase (despite the frankly offensive customer care team being arsey about the fact that my original one had a faulty switch and kept turning itself off whenever I hit a bump which nearly got me killed twice in 3 days but that's another story rant).
Both are now in the middle of a flawless second season and I have no doubt that they meke my commute safer.

chrisjsmith

I think good old fashioned heath-robinson ideas are discounted too often as well. There are lots of home made things which are a lot better than their expensive counterparts.

I'm experimenting with li-ion cells nicked from an old sony pro dv camera and 20w halogen lamps at the moment and it's like daylight outside Grant total cost = £3 so far!

Special K

you're right: there's one born every minute, as they say. But I guess it depends on the use you get out of these items and how valuable they are to you.

I buy mineral water in plastic bottles which get recycled. This may class me as a mug and i must spend a fortune on bottled water.

however, a Volvic water bottled cut down the middle and zip-tied to the down tube is in fact the cheapest crud catcher there is. it does not look cool though (because in attaching it to my inner tube encrusted fixie it makes me look as though I am REALLY trying to look llike a courier)

nwallace

Cost of Oil and Gas

How else is mass production of metal and plastic items carried out. And if it isn't mass produced then either you made it yourself or you pay even more for it.


Dodge Charger $20000 hm. it's almost worth importing one for that except wait, it's American, so can't turn corners, has an engine so unrefined that Ferry Porsche was building racing cars with more efficient ones for Hitler in the 1930s and thus useless on British roads.

There is also the how much will people pay for it factor.

Average wage 2006 in the US was $38,651.41
That is a whopping £18738.20

The UK National Average Wage was £457 for Tax year ending April 2007 (ie 2006) that is £23764. (£5000 more)

I can't find the stats for India and China as a whole but in 2005 a Project Manager in China got around USD12000.

PhilofCas

flattythehurdler wrote:

The dinotte is worth every penny. I have a dinotte rear light, and an exposure enduro turbo on the front which was even more expensive, and is perhaps my wisest cycling purchase (despite the frankly offensive customer care team being arsey about the fact that my original one had a faulty switch and kept turning itself off whenever I hit a bump which nearly got me killed twice in 3 days but that's another story rant).
Both are now in the middle of a flawless second season and I have no doubt that they meke my commute safer.

Ok, to be specific to the front light, Cateye, a perfectly respectable name?!, at Parkers there's a front light for £4.95, an HL500, i suspect that someone is still making money at this price, now i know it's not as good as the one at £155 but has it really got £150 more plastic/labour/technology/bulb in it ?, i'm hoping someone can advise the markup of such an item.

Another area, Sale bikes, on Evans right now, a LeMond Rennes 2006 Road Bike, £1599 down to £999, at £999 i'd still guess there's plenty of margin for manufacturer/distributor/shop.

Cars, US price for a Dodge Charger, starting price $20575, it's got 2.7-liter DOHC 24-valve V6 engine, AM/FM stereo with CD player, Low-back front bucket seats, Air-conditioning, Tilt/telescoping steering wheel, Remote keyless entry, a little over £10 grand, what can we get for that money ? , we can't even get a base model Hyundai i30. (1.4ltr).

Sorry, but we're getting ripped off in this country, i've just seen the Dinotte 200L on sale in the US for $169.

Back to the UK, a pair of perfectly good Aldi cycling shorts, i paid £6 about 5 year ago, still in good shape now, why o why do Assos retail there's at £104.99, are they really 17 times better ??, they're laughing all the way to the (rather full) bank.

I swear i'm not a grumpy old git, i'm just trying to fathom out where we've gone wrong, there's too much money sloshing around that people don't know what to do with it.

Why can't we come to our senses and realise the true value of money, we're losing a grip on reality.

Spare Tyre

I don't really agree with PhilofCas' original comment about "ever increasing prices". Looking at top-of-the-range kit (e.g. lights costing £155, or team replica bikes at £4,000) gives a rather misleading picture.
In the 25 years that I have been cycling, I'm sure the cost of mid-range bikes and equipment has risen at less than the rate of inflation, whilst the quality has improved. Lights are a good example: in terms of brightness and reliability, even the budget-priced modern LED lights are a big improvement over the rubbish that I had to use in the 1980s.
Cycling magazines tend to emphasise the the more expensive gear (e.g. so-called "entry-level" bikes costing £1,500 or more), but that doesn't mean you have to buy it. Similarly, if you think £41 is too much for a pair of gloves, and I would agree with you, you can easily find a decent pair for £20.

richardjallen

PhilofCas wrote:

flattythehurdler wrote:

Why can't we come to our senses and realise the true value of money, we're losing a grip on reality.

Some people would argue the majority goes to paying interest on bank loans taken through the chain. When I started to learn about fractional reserve banking it was a revelation, although in the back of my mind I knew it partly already.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy-fD78zyvI

PhilofCas

nwallace wrote:

Cost of Oil and Gas

How else is mass production of metal and plastic items carried out. And if it isn't mass produced then either you made it yourself or you pay even more for it.


Dodge Charger $20000 hm. it's almost worth importing one for that except wait, it's American, so can't turn corners, has an engine so unrefined that Ferry Porsche was building racing cars with more efficient ones for Hitler in the 1930s and thus useless on British roads.

There is also the how much will people pay for it factor.

Average wage 2006 in the US was $38,651.41
That is a whopping £18738.20

The UK National Average Wage was £457 for Tax year ending April 2007 (ie 2006) that is £23764. (£5000 more)

I can't find the stats for India and China as a whole but in 2005 a Project Manager in China got around USD12000.

hello mwallace, your spat at the Dodger, all i'm trying to put across is that you get a lot of car for £10 grand in the states, maybe look at a Pontiac Grand Prix, very well specced, 3.8ltr V6, 100,000 mile warranty, $22000, anything the same size/spec over here would be much dearer, the Laguna starts at £16 k, a Fiat Panda 100HP over £10K, don't you think we're paying too much ?

PhilofCas

Spare Tyre wrote:

I don't really agree with PhilofCas' original comment about "ever increasing prices". Looking at top-of-the-range kit (e.g. lights costing £155, or team replica bikes at £4,000) gives a rather misleading picture.
In the 25 years that I have been cycling, I'm sure the cost of mid-range bikes and equipment has risen at less than the rate of inflation, whilst the quality has improved. Lights are a good example: in terms of brightness and reliability, even the budget-priced modern LED lights are a big improvement over the rubbish that I had to use in the 1980s.
Cycling magazines tend to emphasise the the more expensive gear (e.g. so-called "entry-level" bikes costing £1,500 or more), but that doesn't mean you have to buy it. Similarly, if you think £41 is too much for a pair of gloves, and I would agree with you, you can easily find a decent pair for £20.

I don't think the Dinotte light is top of the range, i'm pretty sure there's lights up to about £800, i just think £155 is an incredible amount to pay for a light and can't understand how it's priced as such, someone must be paying it out i know, but it just seems to me that real world prices have gone out the window, they are taking us for a ride.

martincroxall

I think thta over the years prices may have gone up but then so has the quality. Back in 1988 I built up a 531 Ralieigh frame with Shimano 600 groupset and other similar level products for around £650. Currently I've got a Tifosi with Shimano Ultegra which I guess is about the same compartive level and that should have cost me over £1000 which is obviously a fair bit more (but not necessarily that much more over nearly 20 years) but a much better bike. However, my Giant SCR 3.0 which cost me £315 is I believe, as good a bike as the Raleigh but much cheaper financially due to the improvement in equipment over time.

Mind you I still wish stuff was cheaper, carbon soled shoes for over £100? I could get a nice comfy pair of trainers for less than that although they would be useless on the bike.

spen666

flattythehurdler wrote:

The dinotte is worth every penny. ....

That phrase is probably the best example of why prices are "high".

People are persuaded that things are worth the price- not that they are good.

There is a subtle difference

spen666

Special K wrote:

you're right: there's one born every minute, as they say. But I guess it depends on the use you get out of these items and how valuable they are to you.

I buy mineral water in plastic bottles which get recycled. This may class me as a mug and i must spend a fortune on bottled water.

however, a Volvic water bottled cut down the middle and zip-tied to the down tube is in fact the cheapest crud catcher there is. it does not look cool though (because in attaching it to my inner tube encrusted fixie it makes me look as though I am REALLY trying to look llike a courier)

That justifies 1 bottle - what about the rest?

FatBlokeFromFelixstowe

spen666 wrote:

Special K wrote:

you're right: there's one born every minute, as they say. But I guess it depends on the use you get out of these items and how valuable they are to you.

I buy mineral water in plastic bottles which get recycled. This may class me as a mug and i must spend a fortune on bottled water.

however, a Volvic water bottled cut down the middle and zip-tied to the down tube is in fact the cheapest crud catcher there is. it does not look cool though (because in attaching it to my inner tube encrusted fixie it makes me look as though I am REALLY trying to look llike a courier)

That justifies 1 bottle - what about the rest?

Cheap cable ties ? He should have gone for the top of the range ones at £ 3.99 each

PhilofCas

Right on queue, on todays reviews, new light (not lights!!) - "Busch & Muller Big Bang £550", who are they trying to kid, Jesus, give me strength.

Down the Road

Stuff is cheaper now than ever. I have a price list from 1967. Parts were dearer then in POUNDS not adjusting them for inflation.

Wages were about a tenth or less of now as well.

It takes about 6 days on average wages to afford an entry level road bike now Then about a year.

Anonymous

Down the Road wrote:

Stuff is cheaper now than ever. I have a price list from 1967. Parts were dearer then in POUNDS not adjusting them for inflation.

Wages were about a tenth or less of now as well.

It takes about 6 days on average wages to afford an entry level road bike now Then about a year.

Why don't you just post a link to your shop and save us all the trouble.
I know you tried once but it (the link) didn't work.

nwallace

PhilofCas wrote:

nwallace wrote:

Cost of Oil and Gas

How else is mass production of metal and plastic items carried out. And if it isn't mass produced then either you made it yourself or you pay even more for it.


Dodge Charger $20000 hm. it's almost worth importing one for that except wait, it's American, so can't turn corners, has an engine so unrefined that Ferry Porsche was building racing cars with more efficient ones for Hitler in the 1930s and thus useless on British roads.

There is also the how much will people pay for it factor.

Average wage 2006 in the US was $38,651.41
That is a whopping £18738.20

The UK National Average Wage was £457 for Tax year ending April 2007 (ie 2006) that is £23764. (£5000 more)

I can't find the stats for India and China as a whole but in 2005 a Project Manager in China got around USD12000.

hello mwallace, your spat at the Dodger, all i'm trying to put across is that you get a lot of car for £10 grand in the states, maybe look at a Pontiac Grand Prix, very well specced, 3.8ltr V6, 100,000 mile warranty, $22000, anything the same size/spec over here would be much dearer, the Laguna starts at £16 k, a Fiat Panda 100HP over £10K, don't you think we're paying too much ?

Yes, it is a lot of car for £10k, 100,000 mile warranty. Nice my 23 year old saab is only 12000 miles past that. Wouldn't expect a warranty like that here either would you.

You may note my understated "There is also the how much will people pay for it factor."
People here will accept a 2 year or 20,000 mile warranty on a car that is going to cost them, £30,000 before you take interest and loan deal end cost into play. I suspect people in the US won't (partly because they can't). Is the need to have a New car as big in the US as here?

If I was selling goods in a country where a vast amount of the population can easily get credit, and some are willing to get silly amounts of credit (and I have done in the past) I would be putting the price at the highest I could that many people would still pay for it at.

If the people of this country actually stopped for a second (as you have) and thought why am I paying this much for this, that is obscene. Margins would tighten, prices would start to drop, pay in shops would start to drop...

When wages go up, prices go up both because they can and because the seller and makers no actually importers need to so they can pay their staff more because the prices are going up. Basic Inflation and Deflation.

Also note that the Dodge Charger is an American built car in Detroit. Made by about paid at Detroit wages, using parts at Detroit prices.

A Opel/Vauxhall Astra is a German or Luton built car, made by people getting paid German/Luton wages, using parts made by Hella or Bosch at German or Spanish prices etc etc.

Energy prices have though been growing faster than inflation in general and thus why it gets most of the blame just now.

If you want you could Import a Charger from the US, pay someone British rates to replace items that are illegal in the EU such as red indicators. Pay the Insurance premium for sitting on the wrong side of the vehicle. Pay the DVLA British rates for licensing (not sure how much a V5 costs) and if its really bad pay VOSA for a SVA test.

And then of course feed it fuel at British rates (20mpg I read, and I think that is short gallons not imperial) you to would be demanding a pay rise so you could travel to work in it.... Assuming you don't cycle or bus it.

So if we start a campaign for every worker in the UK to get a 5% pay cut we might reduce prices to that of the US but then, no one likes a pay cut.

ademort

Hi i live in Holland and can purchase a Campag Record groupset for £850, why is it so expensive in the U.K. This is only one example i could give many others, so why is it so expensive in the U.K. Somebody is making a mint somwhere along the line.

redddraggon

ademort wrote:

Hi i live in Holland and can purchase a Campag Record groupset for £850, why is it so expensive in the U.K. This is only one example i could give many others, so why is it so expensive in the U.K. Somebody is making a mint somwhere along the line.

Less than £900 at ribble, if I looked harder I could probably find it cheaper than that.

http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/groupset. ... MPGRZR2185

PhilofCas

redddraggon wrote:

ademort wrote:

Hi i live in Holland and can purchase a Campag Record groupset for £850, why is it so expensive in the U.K. This is only one example i could give many others, so why is it so expensive in the U.K. Somebody is making a mint somwhere along the line.

Less than £900 at ribble, if I looked harder I could probably find it cheaper than that.

http://www.ribblecycles.co.uk/groupset. ... MPGRZR2185

that's fine, why do they have the RRP set at £1300 - "right, we'll try and sell this at £1300 because some pill*ck in the UK will pay it, we know we don't need to charge this to make a living but let's make a killing while there's plenty of cash rich people there, if that doesn't succeed, we'll offer it for 'Sale' at 8 or 900 and even then we'll make a handsome profit (in fact more profit than we need to grow our business, we'll still rip them off at that price too).

PhilofCas

thanks for the reply mwallace, just wanted an open discussion, some good points i totally agree with.

On the subject of british fuel prices, we used to have public outrage/tanker strikes when it was as high as this in the past (actually not true, it was lower than this), why is there no country wide revolt now ??, has complaining been banned in this country ?, we're just accepting it, paying it, why no big media news on it ? is it being subdued ?

nwallace

PhilofCas wrote:

thanks for the reply mwallace, just wanted an open discussion, some good points i totally agree with.

On the subject of british fuel prices, we used to have public outrage/tanker strikes when it was as high as this in the past (actually not true, it was lower than this), why is there no country wide revolt now ??, has complaining been banned in this country ?, we're just accepting it, paying it, why no big media news on it ? is it being subdued ?

Good question, someone I know pointed out that last time round that the first road haulier blocking Grangemouth was also the first one to drive at picket lines outside the fife coal fields.

They probably bought oil reserves (since it is oil price this time not tax) when they were cheaper and now selling them off at the same time as pleading poverty and raising prices.

Websites like EBuyer killed the price of computer parts and many small shops which couldn't reduce margins as low as 3%. Software margins I believe are still in the region of 700% though.

peanut

its quite simple really. Everyone is into status these days. Materials possessions is a sign of status and gives kudos to the owner.
If Dura Ace was cheap as chips no one would want it. Look on ebay and there a re loads of Shimano Ultegra equipment for sale as folk buy an ultegra equiped bike and want to upgrade to Dura Ace.Why ? If Shimano introduced a more expensive range they would upgrade to that and Dura Ace would suddenly become second best

The more expensive you make bike gear the more exclusive it becomes therefore only the well off can afford it .Thats what makes it desirable and exclusive. It has absolutly nothing to do with quality at all although those that buy it will claim it is naturally.

Look at clothing its all just about labels Take the labels away and no one would want to buy it. With no label you could be mistaken for wearing something from Matalan .Would any of you buy Assos shorts at £100+ if it had no label on it ? of course not any more than you would buy Assos if the prices suddenly plummeted to £15.00 . After a few months every kid in the club would have them . Where would be the appeal then?

chrisjsmith

nwallace wrote:

Websites like EBuyer killed the price of computer parts and many small shops which couldn't reduce margins as low as 3%. Software margins I believe are still in the region of 700% though.

They've had to increase margins recently because noone is buying hardware. It's not significantly life changing any more. It's more penis extensions. I imagine the same is with high end cycling kit - negligible change for significant cost.

Software 700%! This is no longer the 80's. We're looking at 10% on boxed retail stuff, 5-6% on OEM stuff and based on cost 250% for custom stuff (which is what I do )

PhilofCas

peanut wrote:

its quite simple really. Everyone is into status these days. Materials possessions is a sign of status and gives kudos to the owner.
If Dura Ace was cheap as chips no one would want it. Look on ebay and there a re loads of Shimano Ultegra equipment for sale as folk buy an ultegra equiped bike and want to upgrade to Dura Ace.Why ? If Shimano introduced a more expensive range they would upgrade to that and Dura Ace would suddenly become second best

The more expensive you make bike gear the more exclusive it becomes therefore only the well off can afford it .Thats what makes it desirable and exclusive. It has absolutly nothing to do with quality at all although those that buy it will claim it is naturally.

Look at clothing its all just about labels Take the labels away and no one would want to buy it. With no label you could be mistaken for wearing something from Matalan .Would any of you buy Assos shorts at £100+ if it had no label on it ? of course not any more than you would buy Assos if the prices suddenly plummeted to £15.00 . After a few months every kid in the club would have them . Where would be the appeal then?

nicely put Peanut.

ademort

Hi Guys, further to the inflated prices remark. I live in the Netherlands and its just the same here. I quoted earlier a price of £850 for a campag record groupset. I have just checked the website and the prices of the Campag record 2008 groupset is actually £805. The cost of Shimano Durace 2008 triple is £542. This just really does show how inflated prices are everywhere. This shop is considered to be the cheapest in the Netherlands and is frequently visited by Belgian cyclists as its close to the border. We are all being ripped off. At the end of the day we all pay through the nose for the sport that we love. ademort

top_bhoy

ademort, which website would that be? :roll:

Spare Tyre

"At the end of the day we all pay through the nose for the sport that we love". If you want to have Campag Record or Shimano Dura-ace compnents your bike, then yes you do pay through the nose. On the other hand, cheaper kit such as Tiagra and 105 does much the same job for a lot less money. If a product seems too expensive, I just refuse to buy it.

nwallace

chrisjsmith wrote:

nwallace wrote:

Websites like EBuyer killed the price of computer parts and many small shops which couldn't reduce margins as low as 3%. Software margins I believe are still in the region of 700% though.

They've had to increase margins recently because noone is buying hardware. It's not significantly life changing any more. It's more penis extensions. I imagine the same is with high end cycling kit - negligible change for significant cost.

Software 700%! This is no longer the 80's. We're looking at 10% on boxed retail stuff, 5-6% on OEM stuff and based on cost 250% for custom stuff (which is what I do )

I'm only spitting out the margins when I was working in a shop (I shoud lahve used was not is) and with the numbers I picked up from management. which is now er 4 years ago I think. Windows XP Home OEM was coming in from suppliers at £20 and leaving with machine builds at £100, that is 500% isn't it? Unfortuantely most customers bought a machine then claimed they were goning to get XP from Ebuyer for 36 quid... And that is exactly what I did as well, along with the new hard drive.

but yeah, I'm still plugging away with an old single core P4 all i did recently was upgrade the Graphics Card cos the old one failed. Sad thing is, I have the same spec of machine from dell at work, only issue is the Dell one runs like a 2 legged dog.

Down the Road

whitley wrote:

Down the Road wrote:

Stuff is cheaper now than ever. I have a price list from 1967. Parts were dearer then in POUNDS not adjusting them for inflation.

Wages were about a tenth or less of now as well.

It takes about 6 days on average wages to afford an entry level road bike now Then about a year.

Why don't you just post a link to your shop and save us all the trouble.
I know you tried once but it (the link) didn't work.

What Shop ?

Just have a dislike on many forums of EXPERTS who know F- All