Uneven Leg Build and Strength

windyphil

I've been trying to improve my pedalling technique and did some one leg pedalling on the turbo recently. My left leg, which always feels as if it's the most comfortable when riding, is noticeably underpowered and crap at pedalling when doing this. My right leg felt 'connected' and even powerful in comparison.
On closer inspection, my right quad and left calf muscles are bigger/more clearly defined than the opposing leg. Is there some magic way of evening myself out? Where might I be going wrong in position etc that may cause this? Thanks.

hugo15

Other way round for me. Spent most of this year with niggles with my left leg. Just kind of put up with it for months and months, but have ended up with a big knee tracking problem. Had to take 5 weeks off the bike and am just getting back on now. Been to see a physio and he diagnosed that the quad above my left knee (the one on the inside) had not developed and was causing the tracking issue. Might be worth getting your set up checked out.

Thought things were getting better but is is aching like mad tonight.

Alex_Simmons/RST

The calf is primarily for stabilisation and less so for power production on a bike. Most of our power comes from the muscles in the upper legs and bum. If you ride fine and are set up well, then I wouldn't worry unduly about it. But if you are using your calf muscles too much, then there is a likleyhood your set up is not right. I'd recommend validating with a professional bike fitter. One sign is calf cramping regularly on longer rides before anything else gives up.

We don't ride our bikes with one leg (unless you are a full leg amputee) so I see no real point in training that way. The most powerful riders in the world are the ones that push harder on the downstroke and not the so called "smooth rounded" or "pull through and up" type of pedalling action (although it may appear as if these push down harder riders have a "smooth" pedalling action).

windyphil

Thanks for the info and advice. I used to have a knee tracking problem with my right knee which now has the more developed quads. As I've thought about my pedalling stroke whilst riding ie not allowing my leg to rotate out when it gets to the top of the stroke, I've had a lot less problems. Perhaps the thinking about it has led to me using that leg more and hence the increased muscle? If only I could sit in the armchair and think about riding to be effectively training !

Alex_Simmons/RST

You shouldn't have to "think" about pedalling. If your knee rotates out considerably then you are likely not fitted right. I'd still consider having a professional check out your positioning.

windyphil

Sorry if I mislead you with my choice of words but now that my right inner quad has strengthened, I don't need to 'think' about pedalling correctly to stop my knee rotating out at the top of the stroke. I think that perhaps it's just that through previous 'thinking about it consciously' (sp?) my brain is still subconsciously connected to my right leg better than my left. Does that make better sense?

liversedge

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

We don't ride our bikes with one leg (unless you are a full leg amputee) so I see no real point in training that way. The most powerful riders in the world are the ones that push harder on the downstroke and not the so called "smooth rounded" or "pull through and up" type of pedalling action (although it may appear as if these push down harder riders have a "smooth" pedalling action).

one leg drills are as old as the hills and pretty much universally acepted as a good thing. as to your point about mashers being the most powerful ... well you need to provide evidence cause again smooth pedal strokes are widely held as vital for endurance riding. I could cite just about every practising coach alive on that one.

Not sure about kilo and other sprinters but suspect they don't mash either and get more power from a smoother stroke.

andyp

liversedge wrote:

one leg drills are as old as the hills and pretty much universally acepted as a good thing. as to your point about mashers being the most powerful ... well you need to provide evidence cause again smooth pedal strokes are widely held as vital for endurance riding. I could cite just about every practising coach alive on that one.

For many years it was 'universally accepted' that the earth was flat and held up by elephants. It doesn't make it right though does it?

I'm not saying you're wrong on this, just pointing out that relying on something because it is believed to be good, and has done for years, isn't the best logic going.

Mike Willcox

liversedge wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

We don't ride our bikes with one leg (unless you are a full leg amputee) so I see no real point in training that way. The most powerful riders in the world are the ones that push harder on the downstroke and not the so called "smooth rounded" or "pull through and up" type of pedalling action (although it may appear as if these push down harder riders have a "smooth" pedalling action).

one leg drills are as old as the hills and pretty much universally acepted as a good thing. as to your point about mashers being the most powerful ... well you need to provide evidence cause again smooth pedal strokes are widely held as vital for endurance riding. I could cite just about every practising coach alive on that one.
Not sure about kilo and other sprinters but suspect they don't mash either and get more power from a smoother stroke.

I'm with Alex on this one. The way I see it one legged drills are a good way to train for one legged races but have little relevance to pedalling with two legs. If you are pedalling @ 90+ rpm there isn't much pulling up going on, more a non dead weight on the up stroke to as not to counter the down stroke of the other leg. I try and pedal @ 100+ rpm except when climbing and then as the cadence reduces I count to three (To Led Zeppelin's "Misty Mountain Hop" in my head ) and on the count of one will focus on pushing down and clawing it back up, alternate legs. The rest of the time it's mash away, but even if I do say so myself it's smooth as silk. .

liversedge

andyp wrote:

liversedge wrote:

one leg drills are as old as the hills and pretty much universally acepted as a good thing. as to your point about mashers being the most powerful ... well you need to provide evidence cause again smooth pedal strokes are widely held as vital for endurance riding. I could cite just about every practising coach alive on that one.

For many years it was 'universally accepted' that the earth was flat and held up by elephants. It doesn't make it right though does it?

I'm not saying you're wrong on this, just pointing out that relying on something because it is believed to be good, and has done for years, isn't the best logic going.

There is plenty of emprical eviudence to support smoother pedalling strokes for endurance unfortunately there was never any empirical evidence that the earth was flat!!

here is an example after 1 google search:http://www.acsm-msse.org/pt/re/msse/abstract.00005768-200705000-00003.htm

[edited url to remove jsessionid]

windyphil

so after all of that discussion , could someone tell me how to balance the power output from my legs? :roll:

Mike Willcox

windyphil wrote:

so after all of that discussion , could someone tell me how to balance the power output from my legs? :roll:

My suggestion would be to try pedalling at a cadence of 100+ rpm and concentrate on keeping the upper body still. This should provide the balance you're looking for.

aero blob

hi phil

I'm a bike fitter - Kinetic-One http://www.kinetic-one.co.uk.

I'm going to suggest.......guess what........Exactly!

Now I know i'm going to have to justify this too. I agree with Alex on the issue of power production and muscle usage. Its also of course very rare for any of us to be anywhere near symmetrical in either our musculature or our posture or even our limb lengths. most of us muddle through and only become aware of these issues when a problem or injury presents or we start focussing on technique to improve our riding and discover something unexpected.

if you're injured then going to a physio is clearly the best route to address the treatment of the injury.

If you aren't injured and want to understand more about your riding style and pedalling etc then a Physio in most cases won't be able to assist in terms of practical setup of your bike. Equally, if you do become injured, then take time off the bike whilst you work on healing the injury - how do you know when you get back on the bike that you won't become injured again. lets say you did have a poor position to start with - got injured as a result - got treated and then got back on the same bike!

What a bike fitting can do is to give you a good optimal baseline setup so that you can ride in a postion that you know to be a good riding position for your event. This looks at upper body, lower body, reach optimal saddle height, foot position etc etc. We tend to find that around 30-40% of people we see have some considerable positional anomolies that need to be addressed - many of these are experienced cyclists too who ar often quite surprised.

Given the side debate in this thread about empirical and anecdotal evidence etc it should be said that there is now a good solid body of biomechanical evidence - both emprical and scientific and dating back over 20 years now - that makes the determination of optimal postions for riders a fairly straightforward and robust process. We currently carry links to over 170 papers on our website: http://www.shop.kinetic-one.co.uk/bike- ... se-1-w.asp

Once you've established your optimal position - it then becomes possible to interrogate any anomolies that still remain in your riding. For example, leg length differences or forefoot tilts (akin to pronation and supination in running) are being increasingly recognised as having significant impact on riding. however its important to start at the beginning and look at general positioning before you start delving into the very detailed area of individual limb lengths.

Alex_Simmons/RST

liversedge wrote:

one leg drills are as old as the hills and pretty much universally acepted as a good thing. as to your point about mashers being the most powerful ... well you need to provide evidence cause again smooth pedal strokes are widely held as vital for endurance riding. I could cite just about every practising coach alive on that one.

Not this coach.

I may as well just quote Ric as I don't need to restate what he's previously written on this topic.

In the seminal work by Coyle et al, 91, they used force instrumented pedals and compared two groups of cyclists elite and state level. the better cyclists pushed down more and pulled up less, while the less good cyclists pushed down less and pulled up more on the pedals.

i would not bother learning how to orientate the forces when pedalling, just learn to produce more power (i.e., get fitter).

Not only is 'circular' pedalling overrated, the evidence appears to be against it -- in general, all the research that had examinded actual pedal forces tends to show that less good cyclist are more 'circular', while better cyclists simply stomp down harder.

Suggest having a look here at the full study:
http://www.midweekclub.ca/articles/coyle91.pdf

liversedge wrote:

Not sure about kilo and other sprinters but suspect they don't mash either and get more power from a smoother stroke.

You'd be wrong.

liversedge

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

liversedge wrote:

one leg drills are as old as the hills and pretty much universally acepted as a good thing. as to your point about mashers being the most powerful ... well you need to provide evidence cause again smooth pedal strokes are widely held as vital for endurance riding. I could cite just about every practising coach alive on that one.

Not this coach.

I may as well just quote Ric as I don't need to restate what he's previously written on this topic.

In the seminal work by Coyle et al, 91, they used force instrumented pedals and compared two groups of cyclists elite and state level. the better cyclists pushed down more and pulled up less, while the less good cyclists pushed down less and pulled up more on the pedals.

i would not bother learning how to orientate the forces when pedalling, just learn to produce more power (i.e., get fitter).

Not only is 'circular' pedalling overrated, the evidence appears to be against it -- in general, all the research that had examinded actual pedal forces tends to show that less good cyclist are more 'circular', while better cyclists simply stomp down harder.

Suggest having a look here at the full study:
http://www.midweekclub.ca/articles/coyle91.pdf

liversedge wrote:

Not sure about kilo and other sprinters but suspect they don't mash either and get more power from a smoother stroke.

You'd be wrong.

well that is interesting ... i was taught that kicking over the top and pulling through at the bottom of the srtoke recruited the hip flexors, gluts and hamstrings - and this helped to spread the load leading to greater endurance. if its a waste of time and we're better off just crunching along and getting bigger quads then I stand corrected .... seems counter intuitive.

I'm no physiologist or sports scientist, but I am familair with good scientific method and am very surprised that this work is heralded as 'seminal' when the test bed they used clearly had flaws ... "However for each revolution there were separate regions where each potentiometer reset and they produced spurious values in these transition zones. To correct the data in the transition zone for the crank, previously reported procedures were used to compute an average angular velocity for the crank during each revolution." - forming any conclusion related to angular forces throughout the pedal-stroke seems a little tenuous when the values are computed rather than observed.

Having said all that I'd really like it to be true, no more spinscan misery just stomp around like a hammer. cool!!

BTW, I read about your crash, my sympathies - hope you are on the mends.

Mark

ut_och_cykla

My understanding is that its the big muscles that provide the oomph in cycling (bum and front of thigh), the others just (no mean effort mind) make their work possible. Common sense says that a smooth action is beneficial in some situations - especially MTBing, as just stomping down so the wheeel spins is counterproductive. I don't equate pedalling smoothly with actively pulling up though - more just lifting the dead weight off as soemone else has already said. One legged drills might be interesting to do once in a while when the snow is deep but not much more than just ... interesting

Alex_Simmons/RST

Actually you are right to point out that in MTB it is not always the best technique - but this is the Road Training Forum

windyphil

Slightly OT, but the 'improve your climbing' article that's just come onto Bikeradar today does mention some ankling which I'm sure uses calf muscles - as opposed to just there to provide stability :?

Alex_Simmons/RST

Calf muscles do contribute to power but primarily they are stability control (which obviously helps transfer the power from upper legs/glutes).

I hope to demonstrate it when I make a come back to cycling as I no longer have calf muscles in my lower left leg (I have a prosthetic leg).

Toks

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Calf muscles do contribute to power but primarily they are stability control (which obviously helps transfer the power from upper legs/glutes).

I hope to demonstrate it when I make a come back to cycling as I no longer have calf muscles in my lower left leg (I have a prosthetic leg).

Keep going Alex, I'll definitley be looking to see how you'll get on. Without complications will you be able to get close to or achieve the same FT?

Alex_Simmons/RST

Toks wrote:

Keep going Alex, I'll definitley be looking to see how you'll get on. Without complications will you be able to get close to or achieve the same FT?

Thanks. My aim is to eventually set PBs but that might take a couple of seasons. First I have to get to the stage where I can actually get on a bike and turn a crank. Then train, then race, then win.