Are tubulars too much hassle?

Shavedlegs

I'm very tempted to buy a pair of 50mm rim tubular wheels. A lot of people claim the higher pressure makes them roll better and that they are just plain faster.

I've always been put off them simply because they are new to me. How much hassle are they? Riders use them in Ironman competitions so fixing a puncture can't be that tricky, or they'd risk being stranded. I just don't like the sound of all this gluing business.

celbianchi

I use tubs for racing only, my theory being in your average 2/3/4 race if you puncture, if there is a service car and you have a wheel on it, by the time you are sorted out the bunch is olut of sight anyway.

Glueing them is not too much bother, can be expensive if you puncture when they are fairly new, repairs can be done though I don't repair mine as other people have advised that you can feel the repair when riding.

wildmoustache

yeah, I agree with celbianchi. Racing and a bit of posing they're great. Not for training or sportifs.

it's nice to have a pair of carbon deep section tubs as they are both aero and light and have a nice ride quality.

Advantages:

Lighter (both the rim and the tyre versus tyre+tube)
Corner/handle better
Open up a whole new world of lightweight deep section carbon wheels.
Somewhat nicer ride quality
Fewer punctures for a given weight of tyre.


Disadvantages

Have to use new tyre each time you puncture (unless you want to use slime stuff), meanring that training is a bad idea, both due to cost and due to having to carry a spare tub.
Related to the above, more expensive ... £30 - £40 per puncture but they do puncture less.
Slightly higher rolling resistance than the best clinchers, mainly due to the adhesive

For crits, road racing and TTs (less so) I think they are better. For everything else, clinchers are better.

Bronzie

Another couple of advantages that Wildmoustache didn't mention:
- when they do puncture, you don't lose control of the bike so easily - one of the reasons I prefer tubs for track racing as they can be run flat in an emergency
- you can pump them up to really high pressures (200+ psi on the more expensive tubs) which makes them faster

Generally though, I agree that they are ok for racing, but not suitable for training / sportives.

wildmoustache

Bronzie wrote:

Another couple of advantages that Wildmoustache didn't mention:
- when they do puncture, you don't lose control of the bike so easily - one of the reasons I prefer tubs for track racing as they can be run flat in an emergency
- you can pump them up to really high pressures (200+ psi on the more expensive tubs) which makes them faster

Generally though, I agree that they are ok for racing, but not suitable for training / sportives.

Yeah, bronzie is dead right on the first one. That is a major advantage on descents as the bike won't crash. Would be nice to use them in the alps etc. for that reason, when the chance of a blowout is higher, but then you have the drawback of what to do when you do puncture ...

on the high pressure point, that's right for track, but usually not an advantage on roads due to poor surface meaning lower pressure will be faster. many clinchers can take up to 140psi or so which is plenty even for smooth roads, unless you are very heavy.

Bronzie

wildmoustache wrote:

Would be nice to use them in the alps etc. for that reason, when the chance of a blowout is higher, but then you have the drawback of what to do when you do puncture ...

Although tubs didn't do Beloki any favours in the 2003 Tour - his rear tyre rolled off the rim due to the glue melting in the very hot conditions (plus the heat in the rim from braking on the descent) and the rest as they say is history.

Monty Dog

My 2p's worth: If you use something like Tufo sealant, it's very effective at keeping you going even if you do puncture - you may have to stop for a bit and refill the tyre, but it's a lot less hassle than having to change a tube. Likewise, Tufo's extreme tape is pretty hassle free - unlike glue.
Absolute rolling resistance is a road race isn't as important as handling and feel - generally a tub is a more puncture resistant than a clincher and gives better handling on fast corners - combined with a lower wheel weight is a worthwhile advantage in a roadrace where you are constantly changing pace.
If you're thinking of road racing, unless it's a crit which allows a lap out, any puncture means your race is almost certainly over because it's virtually impossible to catch-up the bunch anyway.
My choice of wheel is very much driven by the course and conditions - but carbon wheels aren't as robust as regular wheels, so less suited to regular training and sportives. That said, I do use mine for fast long training rides in the summer or for certain sportives.

cougie

Only thing is that for IM races - you need all your spares with you typically - so one tub is fine, but carrying two tubs ? OK Tubs and nice wheels are a bit faster - but IM is a long race and you have to ask if the time saved is worth the extra cost of tyres and wheels ?

I now prefer the normal wheels - tried and tested for me and I can take two innertubes no problem.

If money isnt an option - then tubs prob better.

Smokin Joe

Anyone have experience of Tufo tubular clinchers? I have considered them but can't decide whether they are the best or worst of both worlds.

wildmoustache

Smokin Joe wrote:

Anyone have experience of Tufo tubular clinchers? I have considered them but can't decide whether they are the best or worst of both worlds.

generally considered crap due to high rolling resistance.

Vittoria and Conti make good tubs. I err towards something like Conti Competition 22s as providing a high level of puncture resistance, good grip and acceptable rolling resistance.

Shavedlegs

So as long as I keep my old wheels for training rides, buying tubulars is the correct option. The wheels whether tubs of clincher would really only be used for racing anyway, criteriums and some TT's.

Now I'm excited but need to choose between Planet X, Mavic Carbone or Vuelta Carbon Pro.

wildmoustache

Shavedlegs wrote:

So as long as I keep my old wheels for training rides, buying tubulars is the correct option. The wheels whether tubs of clincher would really only be used for racing anyway, criteriums and some TT's.

Now I'm excited but need to choose between Planet X, Mavic Carbone or Vuelta Carbon Pro.

Fair play. Right decision I'd say. What's your budget? Looks to be £700 ish? Could you stretch to £1k for Zipp 404s? They are a bit more aero and in tub format are very light.

Shavedlegs

Sadly £300 is a bit of a stretch too far.

£750 is my maximum and for once I'd like to stay in budget especially with Christmas looming.

wildmoustache

with christmas looming can't someone else step in and buy them for you???

that aside, if you go for p-x's do yourself a favour and get a DA or Record hub at the back as it will roll better and be stiffer due to the wider flanges. stock hub is junk.

I'd also look at the shimano 50mm tubs as an option but might just be out of budget. they are great looking hoops though and have shimano build quality.

Shavedlegs

Oh Lord, I'm going to go over budget.

dennisn

Smokin Joe wrote:

Anyone have experience of Tufo tubular clinchers? I have considered them but can't decide whether they are the best or worst of both worlds.

I use Tufo tubies and tubular clinchers on everything. Also use the gluing tape and, if
I get a flat, sealant. Have no complaints whatever.
As for rolling resistance, personally, I think it's a load of crap as long as you buy
good quality high pressure tires. I don't believe anyone when they tell me they can feel
the difference in properly inflated race tires. It's a subject that some people like to claim they know all about but in the end they are the people that rolling resistance won't help
at all. They like to think that they can buy speed.

Dennis Noward

cougie

I put the tufos and sealant on my sprint wheels last year. After about four rides I got an unpluggable p*ncture, but before that I kept finding whisps of the sealant over the tyre after each ride. Dunno if it was from holes that the sealant had fixed for me already - but that was my best guess. I know its a tiny survey, but it just put me off them.

I cant tell you how long it is since I p*nctured my hi pressure road wheels for fear of jinxing the run...

Shavedlegs

with christmas looming can't someone else step in and buy them for you???

If any of my family found out how much cycling stuff costs I'd be served with the turkey.

There seems plenty of choice around £700 anyway, too much in fact. The Planet X look a bargain even with a hub upgrade (thanks for the tip). Carbones seem the most popular and Vuelta Carbon Pro the wild card. Still searching to see if I can get Dura Ace within budget.

wildmoustache

Shavedlegs wrote:

with christmas looming can't someone else step in and buy them for you???

If any of my family found out how much cycling stuff costs I'd be served with the turkey.

There seems plenty of choice around £700 anyway, too much in fact. The Planet X look a bargain even with a hub upgrade (thanks for the tip). Carbones seem the most popular and Vuelta Carbon Pro the wild card. Still searching to see if I can get Dura Ace within budget.

yeah, the DAs would be my choice if you can get them in budget.

FYI, I have a pair of P-X's in my stable. They used to have the stock AMclassic rear and I switched it out for a DA with DT aerolite spokes. The difference in stiffness and drag seemed amazing. The wider flanges on the DA hubs make for a much better wheel IMO.

Shavedlegs

Would you recommend the PX over Carbones?

The DA's are out of my price range, unless I get the front this year and the rear next year.

wildmoustache

Shavedlegs wrote:

Would you recommend the PX over Carbones?

The DA's are out of my price range, unless I get the front this year and the rear next year.

On the DAs, it if it was me I'd wait for the clincher version which will cost about £800. You wouldn't get the same handling benefits and they're marginally heavier (1590g vs 1520g), but are cheaper and more practical. I really like the look of those DA deep section ...

On the Carbones, can you get the tubular Carbones within budget? They are 200g+ lighter than the clincher version which I would factor in for the intended use you have. Cosmic Carbones have a very good reputation and test as very aero (one of the most aero deep section wheels) and have the advantage over most that the freehub body can easily be switched between shimano and campag (mavic sell the part for £30ish). I haven't ever owned a pair though - only heard good things about them from clubmates and forums etc.

P-X's if built with the right rear hub have really impressed me. They are a bit lighter than the carbones (even in tubular), but not a huge amount in it. If you take Ksyriums as a reference point, then my P-X's feel stiffer, more responsive, faster at speed and (very noticeably) more comfortable. In fact they are the most comfy wheels I've ever ridden.
They might be able to build with a DT hub, (DT 240) which should allow you to switch between campag and shimano, but you'd need to talk to them for any dishing issues.

I don't think you'd go wrong with either. If you can get them in budget, then maybe go for the carbones just for the superior brand and re-sale value?

pliptrot

Peter Burgin repairs tubs for around a tenner and advertises in the back of Cycling Weekly. He does the job right and you cannot find where the repair is, let alone feel it on the road.

Eurostar

FWIW, Dugast have introduced a tub - the Strada Cotton SP - with a puncture proof belt which they claim reduces punctures by 80%. It weighs 345 g, the same as the Strada Cotton. At 98 euros it costs 21 euros extra. It was tested by two pro teams last year and Dugast claimed an unbelievably huge number (which I forget) of miles between punctures. I'm expecting some in a few weeks so maybe next year I'll have some info.

Oh, and you can't use Tufo sealant in tubs with latex inners because it dissolves them. But you can use the Vittoria/Geax stuff.

Somewhere on the web is a magazine test which measures the RR of lots of racing tyres. Most of the best ones were clinchers. If anyone's interested have a dig at Velonews or weightweenies.

I don't like Tufo tape because eventually you have to take it off the rim, which is many hours of tedious work if you have carbon rims and daren't use strong solvents. I'd rather use glue, despite the mess.

leonlikestrees

I use the Tufo tubular clinchers on my cross bike, and I really like the way they feel. Different kettle of fish to on the road, but they feel more supple, and I put sealant in from new and have never had a puncture. I use clinchers for training though, and I would only ever put tubs on a race bike now having struggled with the maintenance side on my old TT bike. I just seemed to keep getting punctures, and it was such a hassle to fix :-(

pjm-84

I use the Tufo tubular clinchers on my cross bike

You can't get them anymore

leonlikestrees

pjm-84 wrote:

I use the Tufo tubular clinchers on my cross bike

You can't get them anymore

I know...gutted. Once I wear mine out (I'm saving them now for the Three Peaks only, as that's where I really need all that puncture resistance) I might experiment with homebrew tubeless.

kellys_heroes

ah Tubulars Not Raced for about 5 years. but when i did my Good wheels were Tubulars on Mavic SSC service des course rims. should have never sold them probably the best ever made...Corsa CX tubs and does anyone remember Clement Criterium,s ???? they were damn good tubs.....thats why i would choose tubs to race on.....you can pick up Continental tubs for £22 tyres are aboput the same price...all matter of choice i suppose.

dennisn

Eurostar wrote:

FWIW, Dugast have introduced a tub - the Strada Cotton SP - with a puncture proof belt which they claim reduces punctures by 80%. It weighs 345 g, the same as the Strada Cotton. At 98 euros it costs 21 euros extra. It was tested by two pro teams last year and Dugast claimed an unbelievably huge number (which I forget) of miles between punctures. I'm expecting some in a few weeks so maybe next year I'll have some info.

Oh, and you can't use Tufo sealant in tubs with latex inners because it dissolves them. But you can use the Vittoria/Geax stuff.

Somewhere on the web is a magazine test which measures the RR of lots of racing tyres. Most of the best ones were clinchers. If anyone's interested have a dig at Velonews or weightweenies.

I don't like Tufo tape because eventually you have to take it off the rim, which is many hours of tedious work if you have carbon rims and daren't use strong solvents. I'd rather use glue, despite the mess.

I use acetone to clean glue off rims, even carbon. Does no damage and it's about as
strong a solvent as you can get. In truth, about the only thing that will hurt carbon fiber
is paint remover. It will cause it to delaminate.

Dennis noward

Eurostar

I used acetone - never again. The most boring job I've had since...the last time I had a job. Perhaps your acetone was stronger than mine? I got it at Boots.

Raph

I used to use tubs years ago, I overdid it and went touring on them, hacked across London on them, didn't get all that many punctures. This was before lightweight HPs - I remember I really hated all the Hps that were available at the time, it wasn't till the mid-80s that things got better and eventually I gave up on tubs. I had Mavic GP4s on Royce (still got them!) and I remember buying a job lot of Barum SP9s - not the lightest but they got me to the Pyrenees, then the Alps and back home in silky smooth luxury. Nowdays I'm a fat old git and it would be a joke me bothering with tubs when HPs are so good. For racing I'm sure tubs are still the business, especially cos, as mentioned above, the rims are so much lighter for the same strength.

Also tubs are much easier to swap over when you do get a flatty, I used to carry a spare and would only re-glue the rim every second tub - however one day going down a steep hill in Highgate I was jumping over speed humps and over one of them the front wheel didn't land dead-on, the front tub rolled off and went *rse over t*t for about fifty yards - yer stopping distance can be quite impressively long when you're going downhill on yer teeth. Anyway apart from that my only gripe with tubs was the hours spent by the side of the road in France sewing them up after punctures - but even that isn't really a gripe since touring really isn't what they were meant for.

Talking of the Pyrenees, that's where I had the worst cases of glue melting and tubs rolling round on the rim. Never happened here in blighty.

Working out the thread pattern when sewing them back up is also a nightmare - if you don't get it right you end up with a wobble in the tub - doesn't really make any practical difference unless they're at massive pressures but still annoying to see a little zigzag in the tread. There came a point where I promised myself I would never fix another tub, but kept a lookout for cheap job lots. Barum were the best cheap ones, don't know if they still make them, I also remember Wolber, Conti and Vittoria were good - in all those cases the cheapest were terrible and to be avoided but the mid-range ones were all very good.

Eddy S

Eurostar wrote:

I used acetone - never again. The most boring job I've had since...the last time I had a job. Perhaps your acetone was stronger than mine? I got it at Boots.

It does take ages and ages with acetone. The secret with carbon rims is to clean off the old, dried-on glue with white spirit (and like acetone, this does no damage to the rims) and then use the acetone for the final clean to give you the grease-free surface you need to apply the new glue.