Campag Record Ultra Torque Loose central Hex Bolt
Has anyone else had problems with this bolt coming loose?. I took my bike in for the first sevice after 300 or so miles and the mechanic told me it had worked really loose. He told me he had applied some threadlock and tightened it up.
Since then been out and done another 100 or so miles & the bike starts creaking/twanging from the BB. Surprisingly when I check the Hex has worked itself loose again.
Obviously I have retightened it, but it is obviously something I am going to have to keep an eye on....anyone else come across this?
Since then been out and done another 100 or so miles & the bike starts creaking/twanging from the BB. Surprisingly when I check the Hex has worked itself loose again.
Obviously I have retightened it, but it is obviously something I am going to have to keep an eye on....anyone else come across this?
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It's not happened to me. Yet. I'll put some Loctite on next time I check.
My problem is the BB cups. They're rubbish at keeping water out, you have to regrease them a lot.0 -
no.
have you the washer in place?0 -
Someone on another forum reported it falling out completely (IIRC)0
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Good grief, fslling out cmpletely!...they must have known something was up beforehand though, I mean the noise mine was making when it was just loose was pretty indicitive of something been up.
Washer?...what washer?...not sure what you mean. I bought the bike from a specilist bike shop so I presume that the thing was put togther properly, also at the first service, I presume the crank arm would have had to be removed to apply the loctite to the nut, so they would also have noticed if a washer was not there that should have been.
It does seem a bit of a silly design really if this bolt needs checking after every ride, surely it should have some sort of locking mechanism on it.0 -
If the washer is in place then the bolt cannot/shouldnot come loose.
Like I said never had any problems with mine (self assembled)
Haven't used any loctite either.0 -
How does a washer stop it coming loose?...is it some sort of locking or star washer?0
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a spring washer that puts oposite pressure on it so it can't unwind0
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I will have to check that then thanks Gundersen. To be honest I will be most p'eed off if the washer is missing. This is on a £5k bike built up by a pro bikeshop and then serviced 400 miles later by a differant bikeshop that identified it was loose & tightened it up, so not only will I be cross with the builders, but I expect a reasonable mechanic to spot and sort out such a problem....thanks for the info0
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Hmm, a club mate has just had the bolt shear, allowing the cranks to seperate, crank, foot and pedal to hit the back wheel resulting in totalled stays on new carbon frame - i understand that he's now pursuing through the retailer...
Not sure how / why the bolt should shear unless it was overloaded? In theory if all of the washers are in the right place it should be impossible to overtighten even if you don't have a torque wrench to tighten correctly...
Anyone else know of any total failures?0 -
Thats the sort of thing that worries me MM1...let us know what gets resolved on that one...extremely dangerous that sort of bolt shear....just imagine your climbing a steep hill out of the saddle with a lorry behind you and the thing shears, down you go hit the deck and nicely under the truck wheels..lovely.
I have never quite got over a chain snap that happened to me whilst climbing a hill, a car behind missed me by mm's not to mention the pain as I went down!...leaves a long term memory thats hard to dispel.
There should be no reasons for component failures in this day and age0 -
campag issued a warning about this .it has to be fastened at the correct torque or it will come loose or shear.
http://www.campagnolo.com/pdf/7225365_w ... e_0607.pdf0 -
This is all getting a bit weird...Campag say it needs torquing up, fine...so the spring loaded washer therefore does not seem much of a failsafe then0
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This thread is precisely the reason why I bought the 2006 Record groupset in preference to the 2007 version. Just didn't like the look of that ultra-torque detail....0
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Torque it and there's no problem.
Although Captain Fagor did well to get the 2006 model as the current outboard bearings suffer a lot when it rains, you need to clean and regrease after a ride in the rain otherwise grit and other mess can ruin things quickly. Bad design, Campagnolo have made a rare error on this...0 -
So - let me repeat this to underline my incredulity- Campag's finest lets in the wet after 1 soggy ride? Isn't that crankset about 350 quid? The alternative is the Dura Ace unit, a design which I have also seen come to bits in the road (the left crank fell off, luckily whilst stationary).
A sorry state of affairs.0 -
If all are fitted by a trained and qualified mechanic using the correct tools and a TORQUE wrench there are no problems with any system.
Old square tapers came undone as did Octalink if the torque is incorrect.
Stop being luddites and realise that this is now expensive specialist machinery and needs to be assembled by qualified professionals
Manufacturers produce manuals for a reason. For us all to read and obey.Racing is life - everything else is just waiting0 -
Down the Road wrote:Stop being luddites and realise that this is now expensive specialist machinery and needs to be assembled by qualified professionals
I'd disagree. It's a bolt. A bolt that some noddy didn't tighten properly.
Do be aware though that it is only a short step from "qualified professionals" to "sorry, we won't honour the warranty unless you have all your work carried out by you local Campag / Shimano service boutique, charging £80/hour for some shaved monkey to get lithium grease all over your new bike".
I'd reckon that the CEOs of the big component manufacturers have wet dreams over the prospect of users having to bring in their bikes to licensed professionals.'This week I 'ave been mostly been climbing like Basso - Shirley Basso.'0 -
Surely they would be foolish not to recognize that amongst purchasers of expensive bicycle parts a significant proportion of us are highly skilled mechanics who do use correct tools, torque wrenches etc. I'd certainly trust my own skills over any mechanic on minimum wage in a bike shop (many are probably fine, but none are likely to spend as much time on a job as I am). I don't know about £80 an hour - you'd have to pay me to let one of them loose on my bike.
Campag do have a general warning about using a qualified mechanic on all there instruction sheets. Interesting to note though that they have a specific warning about this issue http://www.campagnolo.com/pdf/7225365_w ... e_0607.pdf0 -
I am not trying to antagonize anyone with the following, but:
what sort of design relies on the torque setting of a bolt to maintain a weather seal? It seems there are 2 problems, (1)failure/incorrect installation of the bolt, (2) poor bearing seals. I'd say it's foolish at best - if not absolutely idiotic- that a company would provide a system which appears to be so sensitive to set-up. Remember that references above are to bikes set-up (and serviced) by bike shops. Campag should have a pretty good idea of the type of skills accessible in bike shops, shouldn't they?0 -
IMO the external bearing design of the UD crank is no worse than any of the others for weather sealing. The function of the bolt is not to keep the bearing sealed, but just to keep the two half-axles together. The design is pretty intuitive and robust - it's a 8mm bolt FFS - you'd have to massively abuse it to break it.Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..0
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pliptrot wrote:I am not trying to antagonize anyone with the following, but:
what sort of design relies on the torque setting of a bolt to maintain a weather seal? It seems there are 2 problems, (1)failure/incorrect installation of the bolt, (2) poor bearing seals. I'd say it's foolish at best - if not absolutely idiotic- that a company would provide a system which appears to be so sensitive to set-up. Remember that references above are to bikes set-up (and serviced) by bike shops. Campag should have a pretty good idea of the type of skills accessible in bike shops, shouldn't they?
You heard of these cotterless chainsets?
Wot an f'in stupid idea eh.
Never catch on in a million years!!0 -
maybe yours is a 8mm bolt , but mine is 10mm0
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The torque of this bolt is nothing to do with the sealing (which is poor design, but it would seem can be solved by the same bearing upgrading that fixes the bearing problems on other external BBs). Don't know about Campag's awareness of bike shop skills, but it's not unreasonable to expect mechanics to use proper tools and torque wrenches for things like this. Unfortunately anecdotal evidence would suggest that many bike shops don't own a torque wrench, but that's hardly Campag's fault.pliptrot wrote:I am not trying to antagonize anyone with the following, but:
what sort of design relies on the torque setting of a bolt to maintain a weather seal? It seems there are 2 problems, (1)failure/incorrect installation of the bolt, (2) poor bearing seals. I'd say it's foolish at best - if not absolutely idiotic- that a company would provide a system which appears to be so sensitive to set-up. Remember that references above are to bikes set-up (and serviced) by bike shops. Campag should have a pretty good idea of the type of skills accessible in bike shops, shouldn't they?0 -
aracer wrote:
The torque of this bolt is nothing to do with the sealing (which is poor design, but it would seem can be solved by the same bearing upgrading that fixes the bearing problems on other external BBs). Don't know about Campag's awareness of bike shop skills, but it's not unreasonable to expect mechanics to use proper tools and torque wrenches for things like this. Unfortunately anecdotal evidence would suggest that many bike shops don't own a torque wrench, but that's hardly Campag's fault.pliptrot wrote:I am not trying to antagonize anyone with the following, but:
what sort of design relies on the torque setting of a bolt to maintain a weather seal? It seems there are 2 problems, (1)failure/incorrect installation of the bolt, (2) poor bearing seals. I'd say it's foolish at best - if not absolutely idiotic- that a company would provide a system which appears to be so sensitive to set-up. Remember that references above are to bikes set-up (and serviced) by bike shops. Campag should have a pretty good idea of the type of skills accessible in bike shops, shouldn't they?
Hence the PRO SHOP set up.
Shops who have their skills audited and are recommended by Campagnolo. Not a system where a shop can purchase a service centre certificate.Racing is life - everything else is just waiting0 -
OK - 10mm, I couldn't be bothered to go down the bike shed and unscrew the thing to find out.Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..0
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Well, hirth couplings (as used in the subject chainset) are well proven in many difficult applications, so if Campag have done their sums at the design stage it's likely the breakage & loosening issues are down to improper installation (i.e. 2 grunts instead of 42Nm). But, this whole crappy sealing thing is amazing.0
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AFAIK the bearings are standard industrial cartridge bearings - pretty similar to those on Shimano, FSA and Truvativ - so if anything it's a generic weakness with external bearing cranks rather than just the Campagnolo ones. I had to replace some Truvativ GXP bearings following one particularly filthy ride on my cross bikeMake mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..0
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Sorry Monty Dog, the bearings aren't sealed on Campag UT chainsets. They are effectively loose bearings packed with grease [edit: they may have a seal on the outside, can't remember - but not the inside certainly]. It's actually not as bad as it sounds as at least you can repack them unlike Shimano/GXP external BB's etc which are disposable items. [As a side note of course they have they to be servicable as changing them would require a specialist tool in the shape of a bearing puller!]
However the UT design appears to be really well though out and I can only believe that failures of the Hirth couplings are basically only caused because they have been fitted poorly as (it seems 90%+ of mechanical problems are!) I read somewhere that Hirth couplings are used in Turbines! Also how many pro bikes have you seen fail?
All I can say (again) is read the manual - it clearly states the recommended Torque and the correct Loctite.
and give me UT/Shimano external anyday over ye olde internal BB's.0 -
I quite liked the old Chorus and Record internal BBs.
The external bearings aren't sealed, you need to grease them regularly if you plan on riding in the rain. And annoyingly Campagnolo don't sell a bearing puller. Can anyone recommend a model to use here?
As for the Hirth coupling, it's quite intuitive to torque it right. Like all jobs with a torque wrench after a while you learn to feel what is 4NM or 40NM. And the UT bolt suddenly gets very tight.
Just because one guy's chainset falls apart, it doesn't mean there's a design flaw.0 -
I did see one once on a site in the US. I think it was made by Minoura but the UK importer didn't do it.
Having said that, I'm not sure whether you could get the parts and also how you would press the new bearings back on to the spindle.
Actually I amazed in the time that the UT system has been around that this question hasn't been asked more. I guess it's a testament to the quality/serviceability of the bearings.0
