Gym advice needed

ju5t1n

Hi all,

I joined the local gym last week and to keep fit over the winter months (the turbo-trainer bores me rigid)

I would be interested to know what sort of workout is recommended to keep up cycle fitness?

I am currently doing half an hour on the exercise bike, followed by half an hour on the x-trainer, then a half an hour run, followed by a few lengths in the pool and finally 10 mins or so in the sauna. I’ve no idea if I’m on the right track with this. Could do with some advice really. What do other get up to in the gym?

Cheers,

Justin

ajohn9

you want to be doing some core stability work, that will give you some good benefits come the season

HarryB

If the gym has Concept 2 rowers then I'd suggest you use them. Using one will get you REALLY fit

Ste_S

The book that I'm reading at the moment, The Cyclist's Training Bible by Joe Friel, recommends weight work in the gym. More specifically the exercises that work the cycling muscles are :-

Sqaut, Step Up, Leg Press, Seated Row, Back Extension, Brench Press, Push Up, Heel Raise, Knee Extension, Leg Curl, Crunch, Dead Lift and Lat Pull.

Not sure how well running and swimming will translate over to bike fitness. I'd personally still get out on my bike on the road.

Ric_Stern/RST

ju5t1n wrote:

Hi all,

I joined the local gym last week and to keep fit over the winter months (the turbo-trainer bores me rigid)

I would be interested to know what sort of workout is recommended to keep up cycle fitness?

I am currently doing half an hour on the exercise bike, followed by half an hour on the x-trainer, then a half an hour run, followed by a few lengths in the pool and finally 10 mins or so in the sauna. I’ve no idea if I’m on the right track with this. Could do with some advice really. What do other get up to in the gym?

Cheers,

Justin

Cycling will keep up cycling fitness. Other training will be significantly less effective (but better than doing nothing).

To prevent a significant decline in your aerobic fitness, do an aerobic based activity, such as running, swimming or rowing. None of these are as good as cycling, but if you steadfastly refuse to cycle then you'll have to take second best. They're all much of a muchness. There isn't anything that's significantly better than another modality to improve your cycling.

ric

Ric_Stern/RST

Ste_S wrote:

The book that I'm reading at the moment, The Cyclist's Training Bible by Joe Friel, recommends weight work in the gym. More specifically the exercises that work the cycling muscles are :-

Sqaut, Step Up, Leg Press, Seated Row, Back Extension, Brench Press, Push Up, Heel Raise, Knee Extension, Leg Curl, Crunch, Dead Lift and Lat Pull.

Not sure how well running and swimming will translate over to bike fitness. I'd personally still get out on my bike on the road.

Unfortunately, Friel as i've told him on numerous occassions, is completely wrong on this and completely at odds with the scientific literature on this subject (which as someone who purports to have an interest in exercise physiology is somewhat worrying).

Ric

Ste_S

Wrong in exercises listed, or in using weights in general ?

Ric_Stern/RST

Ste_S wrote:

Wrong in exercises listed, or in using weights in general ?

weights.

ric

celbianchi

Ric,

Forgive my ignorance - why would doing leg specific weights such as squats, leg presses, calf raises etc not be complimentary to cycling? Surely building strength and muscle can only help? I am sure you have a load of scientific evidence, but can oyu give me a couple of sentences in laymans terms as to why weights are not advisable?

Ta in advance.

Ric_Stern/RST

celbianchi wrote:

Ric,

Forgive my ignorance - why would doing leg specific weights such as squats, leg presses, calf raises etc not be complimentary to cycling? Surely building strength and muscle can only help? I am sure you have a load of scientific evidence, but can oyu give me a couple of sentences in laymans terms as to why weights are not advisable?

Ta in advance.

Endurance cycling performance isn't limited by strength, except in certain populations (e.g., you have a functional disability, you're a frail old lady, etc). The vast majority of people have sufficient strength to generate the powers that pro cyclists can.

Doing weights can increase strength three ways
1) increase muscle cross sectional area (hypertrophy)
2) neural increases
3) a combo of the two

1) your muscles weigh more, and you're stronger, however you're not limited by strength plus the distance from the capillaries to muscle cells increase which slows down the unloading of oxygen to the muscles. this decreases (aerobic) performance

2) neurally -- any gains made are specific to the joint angle and velocity at which they're trained. you can't do weights at the same angle and velocity as cycling

plus, extra (weight) training is likely to eat into your cycling time that you have available or cause unneccesary fatigue

ric

celbianchi

Ric
Thanks - interesting stuff. Over the last couple of off seasons I have tried to fit in a couple of weights sessions a week, again after reading Friel's book a few years back. I would mainly concentrate on legs and core muscles. I still ride 10 to 12 hours a week in the off season.

Robert Millar also used to spend a lot of time doing weights, and so did Armstrong by all accounts.

Ric_Stern/RST

celbianchi wrote:

Ric
Thanks - interesting stuff. Over the last couple of off seasons I have tried to fit in a couple of weights sessions a week, again after reading Friel's book a few years back. I would mainly concentrate on legs and core muscles. I still ride 10 to 12 hours a week in the off season.

Robert Millar also used to spend a lot of time doing weights, and so did Armstrong by all accounts.

It's interesting... there's another weight training thread on another forum (slowtwitch) and people there are saying that LA stopped doing weight because he put on mass too easily. LA confirms (in an interview, not the thread on that forum) that he was glad to be done with the TdF so that he could do weights and put muscle on (or words very much to that effect).

Anyhow, just because (some) pros do weights doesn't mean that's correct, they're not scientists and likely aren't able to factor out exactly what is happening. We don't know if they're good because of, or in spite of their training. Plus, pros do a whole lot of 'dodgy' things...

Ric

celbianchi

Good points there Ric.

I think there is a lot of "I'll train in this way because Mr. X does". Indeed in our club, when it comes to race prep, we all tend to follow similar sessions, without too much science behind it, e.g. a 2 hour hilly ride, doing the hills flat out, an hour through and off on a flat crit circuit, an hour on the turbo etc. Very unstructured.

A good reason to consider coaching advice from someone who understands things properly i'd guess

Ric_Stern/RST

celbianchi wrote:

Good points there Ric.

I think there is a lot of "I'll train in this way because Mr. X does". Indeed in our club, when it comes to race prep, we all tend to follow similar sessions, without too much science behind it, e.g. a 2 hour hilly ride, doing the hills flat out, an hour through and off on a flat crit circuit, an hour on the turbo etc. Very unstructured.

"if you keep doing what you've always done, you'll keep getting the same results"

A good reason to consider coaching advice from someone who understands things properly i'd guess

It is always tends to strike me, that many, many people get to a certain level and then never progress any further and just spend their time purchasing bling kit to knock a couple of seconds off their time or go marginally faster, when well thought out coaching will knock them through their plateau and really advance them.

That's not to say that kit isn't important (it is), but training (well) is much more important.

Ric

Doom

Ric_Stern/RST wrote:

That's not to say that kit isn't important (it is), but training (well) is much more important.

Ric

I would love to consider coaching to take my riding to a different level but I suffer from a different problem... one of a lack of time to devote to proper training. My commute is only 8miles and I work fairly long hours so not much free time to devote to training in the week which limits the real riding to the weekend which means I have plateaued at a fairly average level made all the more frustrating as when i was at Uni I had loads more time to train and I had some strong results.

Ric_Stern/RST

Doom wrote:

Ric_Stern/RST wrote:

That's not to say that kit isn't important (it is), but training (well) is much more important.

Ric

I would love to consider coaching to take my riding to a different level but I suffer from a different problem... one of a lack of time to devote to proper training. My commute is only 8miles and I work fairly long hours so not much free time to devote to training in the week which limits the real riding to the weekend which means I have plateaued at a fairly average level made all the more frustrating as when i was at Uni I had loads more time to train and I had some strong results.

Are you able to get a couple of mid-week turbo sessions done? what's your commute like?

ric

Doom

Ric_Stern/RST wrote:

Are you able to get a couple of mid-week turbo sessions done? what's your commute like?

ric

Don't currently own a turbo mainly due to the plethora of advertising lies out there it really has become hard to divide the wheat from the chaff. Commute is undulating in london terms i.e. mid level traffic with a couple of 20-30sec efforts/climbs punctuated by traffic lights why?

Ric_Stern/RST

Doom wrote:

Ric_Stern/RST wrote:

Are you able to get a couple of mid-week turbo sessions done? what's your commute like?

ric

Don't currently own a turbo mainly due to the plethora of advertising lies out there it really has become hard to divide the wheat from the chaff. Commute is undulating in london terms i.e. mid level traffic with a couple of 20-30sec efforts/climbs punctuated by traffic lights why?

I'm not sure, exactly, what you mean by the lies in terms of turbo trainers...

anyway, what i was going to say, was that with your commute, weekend rides and probably a couple mid-week short turbo sessions you could do very well on that.

ric

Doom

Ric_Stern/RST wrote:

I'm not sure, exactly, what you mean by the lies in terms of turbo trainers...

anyway, what i was going to say, was that with your commute, weekend rides and probably a couple mid-week short turbo sessions you could do very well on that.

ric

What I meant was that there are a lot of turbo trainers out there and the advertising of all of them would have you believe that they are all the best so its a bit hard to tell whats actually good and what maybe isnt so suitable.

Thanks for the input though I know advice from someone with your background and knowledge doesnt usually come for free.

Ric_Stern/RST

Doom wrote:

Ric_Stern/RST wrote:

I'm not sure, exactly, what you mean by the lies in terms of turbo trainers...

anyway, what i was going to say, was that with your commute, weekend rides and probably a couple mid-week short turbo sessions you could do very well on that.

ric

What I meant was that there are a lot of turbo trainers out there and the advertising of all of them would have you believe that they are all the best so its a bit hard to tell whats actually good and what maybe isnt so suitable.

Thanks for the input though I know advice from someone with your background and knowledge doesnt usually come for free.

There's a variety of reasonable to good trainers depending on what you want to pay, and what you want the turbo to do.

No probs with the advice. Glad to help if i can.

Ric

ju5t1n

Ric_Stern/RST wrote:

...but if you steadfastly refuse to cycle then you'll have to take second best.

No-one said anything about refusing to cycle, I just meant that it’s wetter and darker in winter so most of us get out less frequently. I just wondered what were the most effective bits of gym kit for keeping up the fitness?

Pagem

ju5t1n wrote:

Ric_Stern/RST wrote:

...but if you steadfastly refuse to cycle then you'll have to take second best.

No-one said anything about refusing to cycle, I just meant that it’s wetter and darker in winter so most of us get out less frequently. I just wondered what were the most effective bits of gym kit for keeping up the fitness?

just run twice per week and do a hard turbo seeion once per week. then make sure you get out both days at the weekend.

don't bother with gym work but do some core stability stuff and stretching on other days.

running, although not cycling specific, is one of the best cv workouts and will at least maintain or even improve your 'engine'. the legs will soon come back esp if you keep them going at weekends and midweek as outlined above.

don't over complicate things.

Matchstick Man

ju5t1n wrote:

[quote="Ric_Stern/RSTI just meant that it’s wetter and darker in winter so most of us get out less frequently.

it might be darker but who says it's wetter? I've gone through whole winters in recent years and only got wet a couple of times when I go out at night. I went out with the running club last night for an hour's fartlek session and it was very very mild. With some decent lights on your bike you'll find the lanes even emptier than they are in the summer and once you've warmed up it's never as bad as people make out.

Ric_Stern/RST

Pagem wrote:

ju5t1n wrote:

Ric_Stern/RST wrote:

...but if you steadfastly refuse to cycle then you'll have to take second best.

No-one said anything about refusing to cycle, I just meant that it’s wetter and darker in winter so most of us get out less frequently. I just wondered what were the most effective bits of gym kit for keeping up the fitness?

just run twice per week and do a hard turbo seeion once per week. then make sure you get out both days at the weekend.

don't bother with gym work but do some core stability stuff and stretching on other days.

running, although not cycling specific, is one of the best cv workouts and will at least maintain or even improve your 'engine'. the legs will soon come back esp if you keep them going at weekends and midweek as outlined above.

don't over complicate things.

sigh... how many times do you see marathon runners winning cycling events?

specificity, specificity, specificity

ric

Matchstick Man

Ric_Stern/RST wrote:

sigh... how many times do you see marathon runners winning cycling events?

none, but I see a load of tri-athletes doing well at running events and bike races when they enter them.

Ric_Stern/RST

Matchstick Man wrote:

Ric_Stern/RST wrote:

sigh... how many times do you see marathon runners winning cycling events?

none, but I see a load of tri-athletes doing well at running events and bike races when they enter them.

how many top level triathletes do you see being top level cyclists?

Matchstick Man

Ric_Stern/RST wrote:

how many top level triathletes do you see being top level cyclists?

Spencer Smith had a pro contract with Linda McCartney

and can you spell L A N C E A R M S T R O N G? Not too shabby for a triathlete was he? He even knocked out a semi decent marathon time on retirement, as did Olano, Jalabert and IIRC Udo Bolts did the Ironman during his pro career.
Kai Hundertmarck (ex Telekom) now a triathlete.

Once your aerobic is trained, I'd suggest most people could switch between disciplines quite easily.

Didn't Lance do the dirty duathlon in Texas with his USPS team-mates during their winter training camps?
And wasn't Victor Hugo Pena's nickname "The Shark" after his prowess in the pool?

Jason Queally used to do water polo

you get the drift

Ric_Stern/RST

Matchstick Man wrote:

Ric_Stern/RST wrote:

how many top level triathletes do you see being top level cyclists?

Spencer Smith had a pro contract with Linda McCartney

and, he was, for want of a better term fairly useless at RR, which he said so himself.

and can you spell L A N C E A R M S T R O N G? Not too shabby for a triathlete was he?

And LA, stopped doing triathlons at something like 17 y old (IIRC). He certainly wasn't a Tour winning cyclist then.

He even knocked out a semi decent marathon time on retirement, as did Olano, Jalabert and IIRC Udo Bolts did the Ironman during his pro career.
Kai Hundertmarck (ex Telekom) now a triathlete.

Once your aerobic is trained, I'd suggest most people could switch between disciplines quite easily.

Didn't Lance do the dirty duathlon in Texas with his USPS team-mates during their winter training camps?
And wasn't Victor Hugo Pena's nickname "The Shark" after his prowess in the pool?

Jason Queally used to do water polo

you get the drift

No one is saying you can't switch between sports, and it's obvious that if you're good at one endurance sport you'll be at least reasonable at another, but you're wrong with "once your aerobic is trained..." unless you want to rewrite the exercise physiology books on specificity?

There are huge differences in exercise modality, VO2max and LT; and the ability to excel at one sport when you've trained another.

So, yes, doing some running is better than doing no exercise, but it's certainly nowhere near as good as doing some cycling (presuming cycling is your goal - which was the question that started these points)

Ric

Pagem

Ric_Stern/RST wrote:

Pagem wrote:

ju5t1n wrote:

Ric_Stern/RST wrote:

...but if you steadfastly refuse to cycle then you'll have to take second best.

No-one said anything about refusing to cycle, I just meant that it’s wetter and darker in winter so most of us get out less frequently. I just wondered what were the most effective bits of gym kit for keeping up the fitness?

just run twice per week and do a hard turbo seeion once per week. then make sure you get out both days at the weekend.

don't bother with gym work but do some core stability stuff and stretching on other days.

running, although not cycling specific, is one of the best cv workouts and will at least maintain or even improve your 'engine'. the legs will soon come back esp if you keep them going at weekends and midweek as outlined above.

don't over complicate things.

sigh... how many times do you see marathon runners winning cycling events?

specificity, specificity, specificity

ric

dont be a twat. it's easy and correct to say specificity is the best way to train. however, i would say the average cyclist doesn't fancy training on dark, dodgey country lanes and many hate the cold which is harsher on a bike than when running for example.

i run alot through the winter but maintain some bike work to keep the legs going.

lance armstrong used to be a triathlete and it didn't stop his progress in cycling. he kicked ass on the bike pretty much every time he got on it.

oh, and i race as a first cat on the road.

Pagem

Ric_Stern/RST wrote:

Matchstick Man wrote:

Ric_Stern/RST wrote:

how many top level triathletes do you see being top level cyclists?

And LA, stopped doing triathlons at something like 17 y old (IIRC). He certainly wasn't a Tour winning cyclist then.

how many 17 year olds are winnning the tour these days?

"At 16 years old, Armstrong became a professional triathlete and became the national sprint-course triathlon champion in 1989 and 1990 at age 18 and 19, respectively." wikipedia

la won the worlds at 21...

specificity of traning can never be beat but its not the complete pciture. it actually does some ahtletes good to break out of their chosen sport for a while to actively rest and psychologically recharge.

Nickodemus

From 2002 until 2004 i used to row in the top VIII (and arguably the top IV, but that was a matter of opinion ) at my uni. During my finals i quit the rowing and started cycling as i was struggling to balance rowing with work and the mrs; cycling gave me the flexibility to get out when i could. I firmly believe that the rowing training i'd done was a massive help in starting me off as a fairly decent cyclist. My first ride with a cyclist mate (he had been riding for a good few years) confirmed that as i cruised past him on hills and flats! I think it had something to do with the fact that the leg power and speed from rowing translated reasonably well to the bike.

Anyway, did some races and loved them and progressed to L'Etape '05 (Maurenx*-> Pau), and did it in a pretty good time of 6hrs 40mins (well ithought it was pretty good anyway as i stared at the back of the last group and had to plough through all the ridiculous traffic up the hills!). Anyway; after that i quit doing pure cycling and turned to tri - was pretty good on the bike, but rubbish at running and swimming (REALLY bad). So, i cut out some cycle training and got running thinking the fitness would stay with me.

THe point of this whole load of ramble is to say that my bike times got slower and slower and now i don't think i'd get anywhere near the same time at the Etape as i did a couple years ago, before the tri stuff!! My running did pick up, but i'd have to say that for cycling you can't beat cycling, but if you really can't get out on the bike or on the turbo and you head for the gym I'd definitely go for the ergo over running or x-trainer any day. It'll work similar muscles to the bike, keep the leg speed up, and will give your lungs a bloody good going over!

By the way Pagem, i was just wondering which club you ride with? I live in Crondall and want to sack-in the triathlons and get back on the bike properly so really need a good cycling club to give me that kick up the backside. Was thinking about that club based in Fleet...can't remember the name if it right now....?