Junk Mileage
flattythehurdler
Posts: 2,314
Is there such a thing? I commute about 14 miles each way on a fixie, with about 250m climbing total each day with inclines up to 12? (for a few hundred metres only). I find that I am tired alot of the time, and had to bail at the top of the second climb of 5 in the peaks the other evening after work on my usual weekend training ride. My pulse averages about 140 on the way to work, and 130 on the way home (my max is about 170). Is this just junk mileage I should stop, or should I continue to grind it out in the knowledge I will get stronger?
Advice would be greatlt appreciated.
PS it takes about 50 mins each way.
Ta
Dan
Advice would be greatlt appreciated.
PS it takes about 50 mins each way.
Ta
Dan
Dan
0
Comments
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I don't believe there is such a thing as "junk mileage" as such - unless the riding you are doing is so far removed from what you are training for that it has no value.
A guy in our club races at elite level - 2 years ago, he was just racing track and crits - very fast events but typically less than 1 hour - he didn't do any rides in the winter longer than 2 hours as he classed anything over that as "junk miles" in relation to what he wanted to achieve. In the build up to the season, he trained behind a moped to bring on his speed. He's now racing for a new club and has just finished his best ever season (winning a Premier Calendar race and completing the Tour of Britain) - this last winter, he did many more long rides (5 hours+) to enhance his endurance.
Your commutes will form the foundations of a great aerobic base (especially if you continue through the winter). You then need to build on this base with training that is more specific to your goals. If you are planning to race next season, you will need to add some high intensity (intervals) rides to enhance your speed as the new season approaches. If you are planning to do longer rides (sportives or audax) you'll need to fit in some longer rides at the weekend over the winter and into the spring.0 -
Thanks Bronzie, It's sportives for me. Just sometimes feel too tired for longer weekend rides. I hope that this will improve as i get harder if I keep it up. Don't have a car so will have to keep it up.Dan0
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I commute about the same as you and try to get out on a sunday aswell for a longer ride of 60 to 100 miles. Like you I sometimes feel tired and lethargic, that being the case I'll do a shorter ride on a sunday,say45miles and get a couple of early nights in,sometimes in bed by 9.30. Soon sorts me out.
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It might not be easy to do on fixed, but can you try sometimes commuting at 'recovery' speed? That is - extremely gently, hardly getting your pulse racing at all. If you can't have a day completely off because you have to commute on your bike, this could be an effective way of giving your body a breather and may leave you with more energy for a long ride at the weekend.
Ruth0 -
BeaconRuth wrote:It might not be easy to do on fixed
You're absolutely right Ruth - it's almost impossible to do a recovery ride on fixed - unless you have a tiny gear that would be impossible to ride down hills, the gear is a bit big for anything other than completely flat rides.
Recovery rides should be interspersed with harder training rides (intervals etc) to give your body a day off to recuperate - active recovery (ie spinning a low gear for 30 mins) is more beneficial in my opinion than doing nothing at all as it gets the blood into the muscles and helps take away some of the soreness associated with a hard ride the day before.
Even for sportives, you will benefit from intervals in the run up to the start of the season (6-8 weeks before) to help you climb and ride in a pace line faster. But the bulk of your rides will need to concentrate on enhancing endurance.0 -
It can't be completely impossible - I know enough people who ride fixed all the time and they manage to do recovery rides as well as hard ones. I can see it's not going to be easy, particularly in hilly terrain though.Bronzie wrote:You're absolutely right Ruth - it's almost impossible to do a recovery ride on fixed............
So maybe Flattythehurdler has an option of riding a freewheel bike some days?
Ruth0 -
I do, but I love my fixie. It feels the right size for a start (unlike my ttaining bike which I just can't get right). Some people ar just harder than me, this I know. I think the problem may be that I only started cycling at the age of 34 , (I am now 39), and have never had the endurance or power bred into my legs whilst my body was still growing and developing. Nice to know that I'm not really doing any harm in any case. I think one of the problems may be that I cycle with strong cyclists at the weekend (one came 23rd in the polkadot), who are fresh, and it is just too fast for me. May have to get commuting tyres put back on my trainer, but it seems an admission of defeat. :oops:Dan0
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Sounds like you're looking for excuses to me. I didn't start cycling until long after I'd stopped growing and developing and I know plenty of very good cyclists who are the same. It depends exactly what level you aspire to, but there's no reason for not reaching a pretty good standard just because you didn't start as a teenager.flattythehurdler wrote:I think the problem may be that I only started cycling at the age of 34 , (I am now 39), and have never had the endurance or power bred into my legs whilst my body was still growing and developing.
Making your commute into a recovery ride once a week is an "admission of defeat"?! Everyone needs to give their body time to rest and recover and grow stronger. You really mustn't view it is as some kind of 'failure'.May have to get commuting tyres put back on my trainer, but it seems an admission of defeat. :oops:
Ruth0 -
BeaconRuth wrote:Making your commute into a recovery ride once a week is an "admission of defeat"?! Everyone needs to give their body time to rest and recover and grow stronger. You really mustn't view it is as some kind of 'failure'.
Ruth
I tend to agree with this. I am doing a 30Km each way commute 2 -3 times a week and then a 50Km on at least 1 weekend day. I've got the commute times down to about 60-65 mins each way but sometimes, because I am still in the process of building up endurance and stamina, I just know when the body is feeling tired and know that its going to be a toughie - I don't batter myself when I take 75+ mins to do it. Of course it may depend on the goals but I'd say in general, when commuting, simply accept some days are better than others.0 -
Dan - could it be that your not eating either enough or the right kind of stuff? You do seem to have quite a high workload so I wonder if you're tiredness stems from an inability to replenish your body?0
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I'm not looking for excuses, just frustrated.Dan0
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Here's my ha'pennies worth...flattythehurdler wrote:Is there such a thing? I commute about 14 miles each way on a fixie, with about 250m climbing total each day with inclines up to 12? (for a few hundred metres only). I find that I am tired alot of the time, and had to bail at the top of the second climb of 5 in the peaks the other evening after work on my usual weekend training ride. My pulse averages about 140 on the way to work, and 130 on the way home (my max is about 170). Is this just junk mileage I should stop, or should I continue to grind it out in the knowledge I will get stronger?
Advice would be greatlt appreciated.
PS it takes about 50 mins each way.
Ta
Dan
Keep on doing the same thing, getting the same (exhausting) results sounds a bit daft to me. If you're kn*ackered and not getting faster you need to change your plan - at least for a while. Re-examine your goals, the need to ride fixed all the time, food, sleep and rests from cyling. If your pulse %s are right you're probably riding too hard too often at the moment and breaking down your body and mind more than you are building it up - hence the feeling of frustration
Keep the goal, change the route and its severity?0 -
It's the most traffic free route I can find. I am inclined to agree with you. I have a week off next week in the sun thank the Lord. Hopefully will feel stronger after. Thanks for all of your advice. I will look at diet sleep, and changing pattern a bit.
Thanks
DanDan0 -
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Dan[/quote]
BIG SNIP!
Keep the goal, change the route and it severity?[/quote]
Sorry - I meant change the route to your goal - your training plan - not teh route you commute!! 0 -
flattythehurdler wrote:Some people ar just harder than me, this I know. :oops:
I think this tells me quite a lot about your problem. You are not soft, you are flogging yourself, riding too hard day after day in the belief that suffering will make you harder and faster. You also say you ride with an average pulse of 140 going to work and 130 on the way home. If your maximum really is 170bpm, 130-140 is way too high for building a base. You are wearing yourself out.
How did you determine your max? Were you well-rested when you did the test? 170 isn't impossible, but for a 39-year-old it is unusually low. I'm 40 and my max is about 185bpm, but I do my base miles at 125-130bpm.
I would suggest you try riding easier for a couple of weeks on your commute, at 90+rpm ( maybe you'll need to put a bigger sprocket on your fixed) and keep your pulse well below 130bpm as much as possible. If you have to go a bit harder on the hills, say up to 145bpm, that's ok. Your 50-min. commute might take you 55 min. or an hour, but so what? After a couple of weeks, see how you feel. I bet you'll feel a lot fresher on a day-to-day basis, will have less trouble going hard when you're out with your club-mates, and you'll probably be able to get your pulse over 170 too. If you do feel tired, don't be afraid to take a day off.0 -
Klassiker wrote:flattythehurdler wrote:Some people ar just harder than me, this I know. :oops:
I think this tells me quite a lot about your problem. You are not soft, you are flogging yourself, riding too hard day after day in the belief that suffering will make you harder and faster. You also say you ride with an average pulse of 140 going to work and 130 on the way home. If your maximum really is 170bpm, 130-140 is way too high for building a base. You are wearing yourself out.
How did you determine your max? Were you well-rested when you did the test? 170 isn't impossible, but for a 39-year-old it is unusually low. I'm 40 and my max is about 185bpm, but I do my base miles at 125-130bpm.
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My MHR is 164, I do my "winter" riding at about 120-130 range which is up the limit oif breathing through my nose only: in PE terms its about 3 or 4. Any less effort and unless I ride all day I would expect the benefits to be quite small, so how can you say 130-140 is "way too high"? I'm sure that each of us responds differently, and has different sized windows in terms of performance relative to actual %MHR effort. 90% is probably no less comfortable for a trained cyclist than 80% for a complete cycling novice.0 -
Yes, you are right. "Way too high" is overstated. I just think doing the commute at 120-125bpm for a few weeks instead of 130-140 would tell Dan a lot about where he really needs to be doing his base miles in terms of pulse rate (or even percieved effort). If I'm right, he is riding every day at a pace which is somewhat too high and that is leading to cumulative fatigue, over-stimulation of his anaerobic system and stagnation of form. The benefits of training at a lower level most of the time are not necessarily less, even if he doesn't increase his mileage.
Yes, we can all ride 14 miles at 80%, especially if we are motivated by the "no pain, no gain" mantra, but it doesn't mean we should. Not twice a day every day anyway.
If I'm wrong, the problem lies somewhere else (e.g. stress, diet, lack of sleep) and he won't feel much better. At least then he'll know something more than he does now.
Once he has established what effort level he can comfortably sustain day after day, and has built up a really solid base he can start to experiment with ways to develop his speed and power, say tt pace on the way home on Tuesdays, intervals Thursdays, recovery pace the following mornings, an extra hour steady on Wednesday evenings, but always based around a solid core of miles at that sustainable effort. All depends on the time of year and what his goals are. It might mean leaving the fixed at home some days though.
Ruth (and others) are absolutely right that easing off when you are tired cannot be seen as an admission of defeat. Proper recovery is at least as important as any other part of training, and absolutely crucial if you are "forced" to ride twice a day during the week and then get a hammering from your club mates at the weekend!
Steve0 -
Klassiker wrote:The benefits of training at a lower level most of the time are not necessarily less, even if he doesn't increase his mileage.
Yes, we can all ride 14 miles at 80%, especially if we are motivated by the "no pain, no gain" mantra, but it doesn't mean we should. Not twice a day every day anyway.
I would have thought that this kind of time/intensity os suitable only for the absolute beginner. I dont do much winter base training as I dont have enough time, but I target min 8 hours a week, of which 50% is Zone 2 (60-70%) and the rest in Z4 or Z5 (80%+)Klassiker wrote:Ruth (and others) are absolutely right that easing off when you are tired cannot be seen as an admission of defeat. Proper recovery is at least as important as any other part of training, and absolutely crucial if you are "forced" to ride twice a day during the week and then get a hammering from your club mates at the weekend!
Steve
Totally agree with this. I was once told that most people do not go hard enough on their hard days, and too hard on their easy days.0 -
Tell you what, i feel as strong as a horse after my week off (26 degrees on a greek beach, swimming only and windsurfing) What a great great holiday.Dan0
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I used to commute 20 miles a day and I, too, used to feel tired a lot of the time. One day on my commute I was caught up by a guy I know - one of the top cross country MTB riders in the country. I told him I was surprised I didn't see him commuting more often. He basically said that commuting was of little value to him in terms of training, that he wouldn't be fresh for the weekend if he rode all week, and that you are far better off getting out for a hard chain gang ride midweek than doing teh same thing every day.
I no longer commute (I work from home) and tend to go out hill running once or twice a week instead, or do an evening ride when we have the daylight. The lack of commuting has had no negative impact on my cycling at all. I'm racing cyclocross at the moment, which is going well, and I'm glad that I don't have to get up on a Monday morning and ride 10 miles to work. Commuting on a bike is a nice thing to do but I don't think that it's necessarily useful training.I'm only concerned with looking concerned0 -
Sorry, totaly dissagree, with pretty much everything you said (hey that's life we're all different.)
In particular (your last sentence) , yes commuting could be a waste of time but then any ridding could be a waste of time if not done with a plan and structured aims and obvectives.0 -
I didn't say it was a waste of time, I said "commuting on a bike is a nice thing to do but I don't think that it's necessarily useful training." I stand by this. Commuting by bike certainly keeps you fit but if you want to train for, say, racing, or those hard weekend club rides then I don't think it is the best way to do it. I reiterate my own experience (and that's all this is: my own experience): I commuted 20 miles a day all year in all weathers for 6 years, mostly riding the same route each time with occasional detours and the odd accident. By the weekend I was tired and, to be honest, not really looking forward to getting out on my bike. I haven't done this since August 2006 and instead go running in the week or (during Spring and Summer) get out for evening rides on or off road. I was really concerned that my lack of commuting would have a negative impact on my cycling but far from it. 14 months on from stopping and I feel much fresher, faster and really love my weekend riding and racing.
I am also thinner now that I am not eating biscuits at my desk and M&S lunches everyday.
I'm only concerned with looking concerned0 -
Also, many people try to go as quick as they can every time they ride to and from work (come on, be honest). But if someone suggested you do two 10 mile TTs a day for the foreseeable future, you'd think that person was barking.I'm only concerned with looking concerned0
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jpembroke,
That is exactly whatt i think I have been slowly realising. What I want to know, I suppose, is whether it is possible to keep doing this mileage in this way, and turn it to my benefit in aiming at continental sportif riding.Dan0 -
flattythehurdler wrote:jpembroke,
That is exactly whatt i think I have been slowly realising. What I want to know, I suppose, is whether it is possible to keep doing this mileage in this way, and turn it to my benefit in aiming at continental sportif riding.
I'm with Klassiker on this too (kan du svenska BTW?)
Just mileage for its own sake probably won't help past a certain point (which you have probably already passed!) Either take most of the commute at a gentler pace so you can ride even harder on other occasions or take a complete break and completely restructure your training! Commuting isn't out of the picture but you probably need more speed over a longer distance for continental sportives. These constitute a clear goal and best results would benefit from specific traing of which commuting would only be a part of.0 -
I know, I just really really hate driving, and public transport is not really an option. Bummer.Dan0
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The elite level XC MTB rider I mentioned in my original post just commuted once a week during spring and summer months but he would do 50/60 mile detour on the way home. Then he would drive on the other days. He reckoned that was far better training than riding in every day because he got plenty of time to rest and recuperate. Having done years of commuting I now know what he means.I'm only concerned with looking concerned0
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Daily commuting on a bike gets you out riding when otherwise the weather might put you off. I regularly commuted. The quickest route was 13.5 miles and I had a variations which could add substantially to this.
IMO it was an advantage to have these miles in your legs. I used to do shift work so I could go for a ride then come home, have a quick change of kit and a bite too eat, then off to work. On the way to work I could have heavy legs but on the ride home I would have recovered and be OK.
When the racing season started then the commute could end up as interval training or a recovery ride depending on how I felt. My point is that I did more training than I would otherwise have managed (train or car) and it enhanced my performances. If you feel tired then ride easy until you feel OK again.0
