Campag Electronic - why ?

sl

I also read the Cycling article last week and am frankly pretty critical of fairly poor journalism albeit only to be expected from the comic - I like the way the writer mixed up solenoids with celluloids! Judging from the tight shots I doubt they even rode a bike rather just pinched some shots of a pro's prototype bike - certainly no comments as to how it rides, rather just a commentary on what it "might" do. Comments on the self adjusting feature strike me as innacurrate - I suspect he mean't you could manually trim the mechs from the computer?

My initial thoughts are that its main weakness is battery life and its huge potential for unreliability - imagine it failing 30 miles from home in the p1$$ing rain? Someone commented on the potential spinoffs of integrating it with other new technology which would be interesting but at the moment it doesn't seem to offer a lot. Another aspect is that I quite like all the engineering that goes into pulling those cables - plastic and electronics doesn't have the same appeal. Similarly, I dropped my Cateye computer on the garage floor last w/e and it just died, my point being that electronics aren't particularly robust and probably wouldn't fare very well in a crash?

One advantage the Mavic system had was that it was powered by a mini generator in the jockey wheen making it very light on battery requrirements, whereas the campag appears to use motors with screw jacks to move the parallelograms which will inevitably use lots of juice, I think the MAVIC system could have been a winner if it had been better waterproofed and not looked so damn ugly.

LangerDan

I'll have to admit that electronic shifting does open up some very interesting possibilites, (particularly when someone decides to make the whole set-up wireless) :

1) Transmit all your HRM and power data back to the team car where the manager combines it with GPS data, sees that you are slacking and starts changing your gears remotely.
2) Each team would employ a hacker who will be able to give you control of your rivals gearing. 40mph and you hit the magic button that puts Boonen on a 39x23.
3) A Rapha battery bag for keeping the batteries warm while you park your electronic gruppo-equipped, Lightweight-shod Storck outside Costa Coffee.

In any case I think that in order to sell electronic shifiting by 2009, we'll need to see it on the big players bikes next Spring. Its all very well having some of the Skil-Shimano riders use it but we need to see the Boonens, Bettinis and Ballans winning crap-weather classics on the equipment.

cougie

sl - i read the bit about celluloids and thought that was an odd name ! Didnt realise they meant solenoids !

Could be fun going under powerlines and the peleton shifts into the granny gear en masse..

Pagem

bryanm wrote:

The self adjusting bit sounded interesting. I'd go for that alone.

this is something that i think is a major break through. a self adjusting, calibrating gear system. bliss. however, i guess the cons would be terrible since if an electrical element fails, yr buggered. at least you can fix most mech issues road side.

Smokin Joe

oldwelshman wrote:

[
Why will it become the norm for racing?
I do not see any benefit so I for one will not be using it so I will be the only cyclist racing without electronic shifting?

Because it will be faster than a cable system. Just as integrated have become the norm because they are faster than d/t.

gkerr4

surely the electronic thing in itself isn't the big deal, but the doors it could open up?

So lets start dreaming about where this could go - someone already touched on the radio control thing - ok perhaps not remote shifting, but certainly downloading data to show the gradient, speed, actual gearing and affect of changing gearing on that speed and the riders heart rate.

if from data like this and lab tests a riders actual best torque band could be detailled - i.e. his or her optimum cadence figure and a band of operation - so say my best cadence was between 86 and 100 rpm - then the little brain thing could be set to ensure, based on road speed, that a gear was selected to keep me as close as possible to that rpm figure - fully automatic shifting - how about that!! would it offer an advantage to a top pro on the tour where seconds count and efficiency in climbing is everything?

take this to a commuter level - pulling away from traffic lights, givign it everything and having the bike change gear to keep you at your optimum output level - a bit like continous variable transmission attempts to do on a car - would that be an advantage?

I'm not saying this is the future or that any of the above provides a benefit or is even desirable, but if the introduction of electronic shifting opens doors to other possibilities, then surely it is a good thing??

thebikeliker

Didn't Browning (of sub-machine gun fame) have an automatic gear changer?

I wanted one until I found out that it didn't come with their other product as standard.

LangerDan

Smokin Joe wrote:

oldwelshman wrote:

[
Why will it become the norm for racing?
I do not see any benefit so I for one will not be using it so I will be the only cyclist racing without electronic shifting?

Because it will be faster than a cable system. Just as integrated have become the norm because they are faster than d/t.

The big speed increase with integrated shifting came from the fact that you didn't have to let go of the hoods, reach down (and if you were standing, sit down) somewhere near your knees for a lever and then reach back for the bars.

I think the speed increase for electronic shifting is overstated .Shifting is composed of a number of elements - getting the mech aligned with the next cog is probably the least time consuming already. The bigger component is having the new sprocket pick up sufficient chain to take the load - this depends on chain speed, not mech speed.

cougie

In its present state I cant see that it offers advantages. I'm sure it will evolve to be useful with smaller solenoids and extended battery life eventually. They should include extra shifting points though like the Zap system had.

eh

One thing that is a big difference between when Mavic released their system and now is battery technology. Modern batteries last a lot longer and weigh less. Without knowing a bit more about the systems it is hard to say what the battery life would be, but if they could last 10+ hours say and drive other devices then I think it maybe a seller.

One major issue they could have is how well it performs in cold conditions where batteries struggle. Probably not such an issue in testing in the Italian summer.

cougie

I think the 10 hours life isnt too far off the mark - they say they can do a classics with lots of juice left. Cant see it has enough power to drive anything else though.

They do say its good in cold conditions as you can change gear instantly - whereas if your fingers are frozen - its hard to do with normal shifting. Only thing is - if my fingers are frozen - I wont be able to feel the levers ! I'll be all over the place !

aracer

sl wrote:

One advantage the Mavic system had was that it was powered by a mini generator in the jockey wheen making it very light on battery requrirements, whereas the campag appears to use motors with screw jacks to move the parallelograms which will inevitably use lots of juice, I think the MAVIC system could have been a winner if it had been better waterproofed and not looked so damn ugly.

Jobst Brandt doesn't think much of the way Mavic avoided havng a big battery and motors (it's not actually a generator, but both more and less elegant than that) http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/elec ... fting.html - he's a man who's opinion I'd trust.

graemetherunner

All taken at this year TDF in the bike compound traf sq london.
Bike belonged to gerolsteiner rider & had already been used for 1 season... make me think its resonably reliable - although all team bikes are thoroughly checked at the end of each day

bigmug

Right then, so 10 hours from a battery. So for a pro doing 10 - 15,000 miles a year thats say 75 batteries! (and they would not want to switch to different equipment between training and racing)
Even the club mileater could knock this out - how many dumped batteries is that them?

Without the generator it seems a bit indulgent?

aracer

Fairly sure the battery is rechargeable.

simbil1

Spot on BigMug - why turn a man-powered sport into something battery assisted?

Smokin Joe

simbil1 wrote:

Spot on BigMug - why turn a man-powered sport into something battery assisted?

No computer or HRM then?

simbil1

Computers and HRMs are optional components - if you get an electric groupo you are committed to battery power and will use orders of magnitude more battery power as they involve mechanics.
A bike should not have an intrinsic need for a power source other than the rider IMHO. I'm a little surprised the racing organisations have allowed them to be honest.

Smokin Joe

simbil1 wrote:

Computers and HRMs are optional components - if you get an electric groupo you are committed to battery power and will use orders of magnitude more battery power as they involve mechanics.
A bike should not have an intrinsic need for a power source other than the rider IMHO. I'm a little surprised the racing organisations have allowed them to be honest.

It is progress, pure and simple. Whatever gizmos you have on a bike to make it easier or more efficient, provided all the motion comes via the rider pushing the pedals then there is no need to ban anything. Whether electronic shifting proves trouble free or not is nothing for us to worry about, because unless it does no-one will buy it and the idea will die.

simbil1

If I were being unkind, I might say you are a little naive to believe it is 'progress' and it is mainly just change to drive sales. But in fairness, I can see that there are lots of innovations around cycling and it adds to the interest of the sport for many riders and gives us something to argue about :twisted:

bigmug

My HRM, computer and LED will go for a long time without a new battery (changed battery in computer after 6 years!!)

Point is that for some people throwing things away regularly - cos they've broken/ran out /not fashioable etc is an acceptable way of life, not for me - love the technology and the progress but don't want the waste.

What's wrong with some solar power etc - bring complimentary technologies along with us.