Campag Electronic - why ?

cougie

Read the review in the comic this week.

Saves on those really heavy gear cables, but still needs wires to the mechs from the levers. Oh and needs batteries too, and motors, so its about the same weight.

Shifting is said to be easier so frozen fingers can do it. Maybe handy for a couple of days a year I guess, but I'd be on my hack bike for most of those.

Battery life is said to be good - with up to 87% of battery life left after a classics race.
How will that work for the weekend warriors though - will we need new batteries each weekend, or plug the bike in once ridden ?

Only poss advantage I can see is the same as Mavic had with their Zap system a decade ago. You can shift gears from the tribars as well as the hoods. But I havent seen if Campag are offering this ?

Is anyone considering buying this ? My gear cables have never let me down, so I cant see why I'd go for this one.

cougie

No-ones up for buying it then so far ?

bryanm

The self adjusting bit sounded interesting. I'd go for that alone.

LangerDan

Yet another solution in search of a problem...........

gavintc

I presume you nay-sayers are still using down tube friction shifters and can not see the benefit of STI/Ergo levers. It is progress, the kit in CW was a prototype / early prod model. I predict that in 10 yrs time, electronic changing will be as common as cable STI is today.

LangerDan

gavintc wrote:

I presume you nay-sayers are still using down tube friction shifters and can not see the benefit of STI/Ergo levers. It is progress, the kit in CW was a prototype / early prod model. I predict that in 10 yrs time, electronic changing will be as common as cable STI is today.

The advantages of Ergo/STI over downtube/friction were fairly obvious at the time and were an improvement in all areas except cost and reliability. I doubt that the groupsets shown recently are very far off production as they will probably be on the shelves in 12-16 months time (new Dura-Ace due shortly regardless of electonic shifting) and its getting a little late to be fannying around with the design.

I dont believe you will have the same trickle-down with the electronic shifting as you have with STI. It may become common at the DA/Record/Chorus/Ultegra level but I can't see how it would be financially viable to make cheap, robust and reliable electronic shifting at the Sora/Tiagra end of the ranges.

As with a lot of these things, its probably worth seeing how such gear performs when mass-manufactured, abused for 12 months and chucked in someones shed. Hand-crafted prototypes with Shimano / Campag tech support at selected pro races give only a partial picture.

simbil1

gavintc wrote:

I presume you nay-sayers are still using down tube friction shifters and can not see the benefit of STI/Ergo levers. It is progress, the kit in CW was a prototype / early prod model. I predict that in 10 yrs time, electronic changing will be as common as cable STI is today.

I predict in 10 years time it will be in the same 'bad ideas bin' as grip shifters

Monty Dog

But Messrs Campagnolo are clearly trying to gain some product differentiation - if Record and Chorus are electronic, for example then it's easier to charge a price premium. It also provides a means of a 'platform' to incorporate other functions e.g. power measurement, integrated computer / HRM / GPS and hence growing market share, rather than letting someone else's accessories hang off their bike. I don't know about others, but my Record-equipped bike get carefully hung from it's own hook in the garage rather than chucked in the shed - and I bet more other owners are the same. A nice shrewd marketing move IMHO - but I think Campag's motives are different from Shimano's - who are after market share regardless. Shimano's track-record in this sort of stuff is less good - anyone remember Airlines - the pneumatic DH shifter that disappeared with barely a 'pssst'?

aracer

Monty Dog wrote:

Shimano's track-record in this sort of stuff is less good - anyone remember Airlines - the pneumatic DH shifter that disappeared with barely a 'pssst'?

OTOH does anybody remember Euclid?

cougie

I'd forgotten about Euclid ! http://www.firstflightbikes.com/1989_Denti.htm

I'm sure things will progress and with improved technology in ten years time it may be more viable, but why introduce a battery into the list of things to go wrong ?

I await the first failure of the battery on a club run, and will it leave you in top, bottom or just were you were ?

LangerDan

Monty Dog wrote:

. A nice shrewd marketing move IMHO - but I think Campag's motives are different from Shimano's - who are after market share regardless.

Both Shimano's and Campag's motives are identical - increased profit. They may follow different routes to achieve this but the bottom line is the one area where both companies are 100% compatible.
Campag had their epiphany 18-20 years ago when they found out the hard way that it wasn't simply enough to be "Campagnolo" anymore (particularly when they tried to move into the MTB market where their road history didn't count for much). Increasing competition from Shimano plus the presence of others at the time like Mavic and SunTour also forced them to tighten up. If they hadn't, it'd be reasonable to assume they'd be a division of SRAM by now!

Monty Dog

Maybe Campag's MTB groups we'ren't the greatest - over-engineered but I expect their failure was more due to failure to embrace the OEM mass-market, rather than saying it was no good. Check out the prices of Euclid and original Centaur parts on ebay - it commands quite a premium in comparison to Deore XT. Mavic and Suntour too were nearly finished by their forays in the MTB market - in fact Suntour probably were more innovative than Shimano with Micro Drive and their Servo brakes in compaison to the poorly finished Shimano kit. Back to the original question - I'd probably buy Record electronic knowing that it has the benefit of good product and spares support than any me-too Dura-Ace stuff.

cougie

The Ebay prices are probably high because of Campag fanatics. It doesnt mean they are any good.

I mean you can buy Nazi memorablia still, doesnt mean the Nazis were good !?

FWIW I think the Campag/Shimano battles have been good for everyone. Innovation has increased dramatically with one determined to get the edge on the other.

pliptrot

...and Campagnolo Super Record derailleurs command premiums on ebay, too, as do Delta brakes. That is- if you know how poorly these devices work-hardly a recommendation. If it wasn't for the Japanese, we'd still be using non-indexed gears, old-style side-pull brakes (As Campag have consistently cut costs they would have dropped the delta design) and freewheels. The last point, of course, would be an advantage because the Campag freehub design makes the problem that Shimano freehubs addressed even worse. Campag's first forays into the use of titanium were generally considered a disaster. And why don't they use ball bearings in their derailleur jockey wheels? They used to, but I guess they figured out they could save costs by dropping this design, and no-one would notice, or at least wouldn't expect to pay less. To put ball bearings in jockey wheels makes a bigger contribution to efficiency than most things, but it's not sexy, it's not marketable, and you can't put a big Campag logo on them.

Shimano spend more on R&D than Campag turn over. I ride a bike, not an art gallery.

LangerDan

cougie wrote:

The Ebay prices are probably high because of Campag fanatics. It doesnt mean they are any good.

I mean you can buy Nazi memorablia still, doesnt mean the Nazis were good !?

FWIW I think the Campag/Shimano battles have been good for everyone. Innovation has increased dramatically with one determined to get the edge on the other.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law

cougie

I did have that at the back of my mind when I wrote that !

aracer

As they say on QI "whoop, whoop, whoop" - you really should read what you're linking to and check it does actually apply!

Rob Sallnow

pliptrot wrote:

...and Campagnolo Super Record derailleurs command premiums on ebay, too, as do Delta brakes. That is- if you know how poorly these devices work-hardly a recommendation. If it wasn't for the Japanese, we'd still be using non-indexed gears, old-style side-pull brakes (As Campag have consistently cut costs they would have dropped the delta design) and freewheels. The last point, of course, would be an advantage because the Campag freehub design makes the problem that Shimano freehubs addressed even worse. Campag's first forays into the use of titanium were generally considered a disaster. And why don't they use ball bearings in their derailleur jockey wheels? They used to, but I guess they figured out they could save costs by dropping this design, and no-one would notice, or at least wouldn't expect to pay less. To put ball bearings in jockey wheels makes a bigger contribution to efficiency than most things, but it's not sexy, it's not marketable, and you can't put a big Campag logo on them.

Shimano spend more on R&D than Campag turn over. I ride a bike, not an art gallery.

You have already been told why Campag no longer put ball bearings in their jockey wheels....in that Record v Dura Ace thread in which you posted rather a lot of duff information about, among other things, Campag hub design. For some reason you ignored most posts that corrected you, including the post that highlighted Campag's 'inferior' bearing configuration of the last 14 or years being the same as today's Dura Ace hub....and you still repeat the rubbish in this thread too.

Campag's foray in to the use of titanium for pedal and bottom bracket axles was slightly flawed due to their use of commercially pure titanium rather than titanium alloy which people use today.

If you don't want your Super Record rear mech I'll have it.

pliptrot

Rob Sallnow,

I assumed that complete disinformation and nonsense could be ignored. Shimano manage feats of engineering that Campagnolo, evidently, do not. And the design of the Campag freehub is poor engineering. If Shimano have now copied it, it's to their chagrin. Sorry if your lecturing didn't have its intended effect; superiority often doesn't come through in writing so you'll have to try a little harder.

Rob Sallnow

LangerDan wrote:

Yet another solution in search of a problem...........

I think it probably is, I think they simply set themselves a challenge to do a better job of the idea than Mavic Zap did and it looks to me like they have....the main problem to overcome is reliability of the motors. What it lacks is the one major advantage Zap had and that is multiple positions you can change the gears at on a time trial bike.

Here is something I expect Campag and Shimano have already looked at....the manual for Mektronic

http://www.yellowjersey.org/mavmek.html

Rob Sallnow

pliptrot wrote:

Rob Sallnow,

I assumed that complete disinformation and nonsense could be ignored. Shimano manage feats of engineering that Campagnolo, evidently, do not. And the design of the Campag freehub is poor engineering. If Shimano have now copied it, it's to their chagrin. Sorry if your lecturing didn't have its intended effect; superiority often doesn't come through in writing so you'll have to try a little harder.

It should be ignored but you put it in such a way that it could not.

Yes, Shimano manage feats of engineering Campag do not....and Campag manage feats of engineering Shimano do not, particularly in the use of carbon fibre (whether we like it or not) and stuff that is deigned to be repairable, or attractive.

graemetherunner

Shimano already have an electronic prototype - been around in the pro ranks for 2 seasons (think it was even mentioned in a recent comic)

I've pictures if anyone is interested

Rob Sallnow

graemetherunner wrote:

Shimano already have an electronic prototype - been around in the pro ranks for 2 seasons (think it was even mentioned in a recent comic)

I've pictures if anyone is interested

Yup....pictures appear from time to time on the Cyclingnews website of both the Shimano and Campag efforts.

Is the article in Cycling Weekly an actual review or just comments on photographs and a chat with a pro that has used it?

Monty Dog

The CW feature wasn't really a proper test - more of a quick spin down the road to see how it works rather than fitting it to a bike for a prolonged test in our finest British summer. The big advantage seemed to be that it worked well in the wet and cold - when are we going to see electronic, servo-powered brakes I wonder, for those long painful alpine descents in the pouring rain?? However, I don't see any of these electronic grouppos being targetted for daily use - more for race-day specials.

Rob Sallnow

Monty Dog wrote:

when are we going to see electronic, servo-powered brakes I wonder, for those long painful alpine descents in the pouring rain??.

I think the future will be disc brakes....and I can hardly wait!!

magliaceleste

OK, for off road I could kind of understand it...no cables to get gummed up (although the sealing could really be a problem!) but for the road? Can't think if I've ever had a situation where there are gear problems due to gunky cables on a road bike. As for it'll be easier for the pros to shift with frozen hands - ah diddums!

I'd have to agree that at this point in time I also think that Shimano and Campagnolo are looking to solve a problem that doesn't exist, but time will tell. Personally, I can't wait to be in the middle of nowhere with a flat battery! ;-)

Smokin Joe

If electronic shifting proves to be reliable it will become the norm for racing at all levels, simply because it is faster than a cable operated system. Whether it trickles down to non-racers remains to be seen, but cost won't be a barrier because once production starts in earnest the electronocs will be cheap as chips.

For those who say Ergo/STI systems offer a fast enough gearshift already, that's what they said about friction when indexing came along, and again about d/t levers when integrated appeared. Everything is good enough till something a bit better comes along, then suddenly it is at a disadvantage.

As for reliability, I've done 300 miles on a motorcycle in heavy rain, during which a far greater amount of eletric gadgetery was being sprayed with water at 70mph from a wide front tyre without a problem, so sealing the electrics on a deraileur isn't rocket science.

amt27

didn't mavic do this years ago?

okay radio wave and battery technologies have moved on, but there is no market for this

freebs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benford%27 ... ontroversy

benfords law of controversy anyone?!

Niland

it's interesting - I'd only really go for it if they can make it wireless and unobrustive. One thing that did occur was if you had a rohloff hub with and eletronic shifter - has that been done?

oldwelshman

Smokin Joe wrote:

If electronic shifting proves to be reliable it will become the norm for racing at all levels, simply because it is faster than a cable operated system. Whether it trickles down to non-racers remains to be seen, but cost won't be a barrier because once production starts in earnest the electronocs will be cheap as chips.

For those who say Ergo/STI systems offer a fast enough gearshift already, that's what they said about friction when indexing came along, and again about d/t levers when integrated appeared. Everything is good enough till something a bit better comes along, then suddenly it is at a disadvantage.

As for reliability, I've done 300 miles on a motorcycle in heavy rain, during which a far greater amount of eletric gadgetery was being sprayed with water at 70mph from a wide front tyre without a problem, so sealing the electrics on a deraileur isn't rocket science.

Why will it become the norm for racing?
I do not see any benefit so I for one will not be using it so I will be the only cyclist racing without electronic shifting?