Time Trialling - too much about the kit?

leonlikestrees

Does anyone think that time trials have become too much about the kit now?

You go to a club ten, and it seems half the field has a £500 disk wheel, carbon frame, TT lid, etc.

At pro level, all that stuff is great, but at amateur level it just (in my opinion) completely skews the race.

About 10 years ago it wasn't so bad. Sure, people had £40's worth of tri bars, and probably a skinsuit. Some even had dedicated frames, but they don't offern anything like the advantages of a modern TT bike.

I like bike as much as the next man - I wouldn't begrudge anyone the fun of owning or racing one of these, but I think it would be nice if there were a few "athletes time trials". Similair to the Athletes Hour record, it would have to be ridden on a normal drop bar road bike, no fewer than 28 spokes per wheel, rims no deeper than, say 20mm.

I think that would be quite fun once or twice a year.

ddraver

How much difference does it really make at amateur level?!

vermooten

Times change. People who don't like that though seem to end up doing audaxes. I'd like to knock a minute or more off my time for a 10 - and god knows I need it - and if I need to spend £500 on a pair of wheels to more or less guarantee it then so be it. Now where's my credit card gone?

BeaconRuth

leonlikestrees wrote:

......... but I think it would be nice if there were a few "athletes time trials". Similair to the Athletes Hour record, it would have to be ridden on a normal drop bar road bike, no fewer than 28 spokes per wheel, rims no deeper than, say 20mm.

I think that would be quite fun once or twice a year.

Luckily for you my club has just the race you're looking for - the classic Beacon Little Mountain Time Trial: http://www.beaconrcc.org.uk/open_races/lmtt/index.html

Look under 'Awards' and you'll find the conditions which need to be fulfilled to win the 'Roadman' competition - no disc, no tri-bars, no aero helmets. It's a truly classic event which has been run since 1948 and it's not for the faint-hearted. The route includes 2 timed climbs, including Ankerdine near Worcester which features in this year's Tour of Britain. See you there next year!

ps. if you look at the full results for 2007 you can see that riders with full testers kit filled the top 12 places - but that might be skewed as possibly those who thought they were in with a chance of winning (ie the best riders) opted for TT equipment and only the second-tier riders opted for road bikes.

Ruth
www.rutheyles.co.uk/

leonlikestrees

ddraver wrote:

How much difference does it really make at amateur level?!

I think it makes a big difference. My own (completely anecdotal experience), is that I was just over a minute quicker over 10 miles using my TT bike compared to my road bike.

Now that's not a fancy TT bike, just an old steel framed lo-pro with a very good position, tri bars, bar-end shifters and CXP30 rims.

I reckon putting on proper TT wheels, and using some of the fancy frames and bar combos around now, and using a TT lid. Tht's got to be worth another minute!

Of course, this could all be interpreted as me being sour because I don't have a fancy TT rig :-) - but it's not, honest! I think there's a place for both types of events!

leonlikestrees

BeaconRuth wrote:

I think that would be quite fun once or twice a year
Luckily for you my club has just the race you're looking for - the classic Beacon Little Mountain Time Trial: http://www.beaconrcc.org.uk/open_races/lmtt/index.html.

That looks perfect! It's a bit further than I usually go for an event, but it sounds like a great event to me. Look for my entry next year.

I see you did well to - champ!

Leon

BeaconRuth

leonlikestrees wrote:

That looks perfect! It's a bit further than I usually go for an event, but it sounds like a great event to me. Look for my entry next year.

Super! Well worth the extra travelling. Hopefully the field will be even bigger and of even higher quality next year too. We're requesting 28th April - so put it in your diary now.

I see you did well to - champ!

Thanks - though I almost didn't make it up Ankerdine. 39x21 was a bit on the high side. :oops: Must do something about having lower gears next year!

Ruth
www.rutheyles.co.uk/

leonlikestrees

My road bike these days has a compact on it. I can't see myself struggling too much with a 36 chainring!

I was more worried about the downs, but I was amazed to see a 50/11 is actually a bigger gear than a 53/12! (in fact it's every so slightly bigger than a 54/12!). I don't think I'll have to worry about that with my twig like legs!


Leon

itsallinthelegs

I agree that turning up to a club 10 with full TT gear is something to be thoroughly ashamed of. For bigger TTs such as BUSAs or whatever, fine. Having said that, it does leave the immensely satisfying opportunity of beating a skin-suited disc-wheel-toting speed demon with your 'standard' roadie!

nick hanson

Starting to go down the road of testers verses roadmen here,me thinks.
If someone wants to use their best TT kit in an evening 10,it's their choice.If someone wants to turn up on a bog standard road bike,this is also their choice.Unless you are at international level,you are only racing yourself in a TT.
Seem to remember Wiggo doing some mega fast evening 10's in the last couple of years & i bet he didn't exactly ride on his winter bike!.
The national 25 mile champion goes out training,even in hilly terrain, on his low profile,so,again,cant see him turning up on an old hack bike for an evening event

leonlikestrees

I never said people shouldn't use their TT bikes in an evening ten - I would if I had one. just think it would be good if there were a few events that took the technology out of the equation. I think in time trialing, more than any other cycling discipline, a real advantage can be bought.

As much as a TT is a ride against your own PB, it's also a ride against other people. It would be nice to just occasionally know what the real difference in fitness is between the riders.

cougie

Its just buying PBs isnt it ? Entirely up to the person involved, but spending a couple of grand to knock a minute or two off your club 10 time seems a bit much.

Np wonder kids arent coming into the sport now. Road bike, TT bike, race wheels. All gets pricey. And what was the comic on about this week - £170 for a pair of carbon bars ?
Wnats wrong with the £30 alloy ones FFS ?

Fixed Wheelnut

itsallinthelegs wrote:

I agree that turning up to a club 10 with full TT gear is something to be thoroughly ashamed of. For bigger TTs such as BUSAs or whatever, fine. Having said that, it does leave the immensely satisfying opportunity of beating a skin-suited disc-wheel-toting speed demon with your 'standard' roadie!

and a fixed one at that

andrewgturnbull

itsallinthelegs wrote:

I agree that turning up to a club 10 with full TT gear is something to be thoroughly ashamed of. For bigger TTs such as BUSAs or whatever, fine. Having said that, it does leave the immensely satisfying opportunity of beating a skin-suited disc-wheel-toting speed demon with your 'standard' roadie!

Hi there.

Ok, so I've bought my aero bike, deep dished carbon and disk wheels, skinsuit and pointy hat. Now you suggest that I should only use them once or twice a year?

What would be the point in that?

I used to scoff at people who had 'all the gear and no idea' but when you think about it it's just inverted snobbery. If people can afford the good kit why shouldn't they use it? Like or not, cycling is no longer the working class sport it was in your father's day!

I spend 10 to 15 hours a week training, when I turn up at a race I make sure I'm prepared, and bring my best game to the start line. Why shouldn't I bring my best bike too?

Cheers, Any

nolf

If you can afford it and want it buy it.

Ok if you're a complete amateur and buy £6k's worth of TT equipment then you're foolish but I think if you're pretty good then why not!

Personally i set myself little targets before I buy something new.

In TT's I guess I'd probably say beat 28 mins before clip on aero bars, then beat 25 mins before deep section wheels, then 23 mins before a dedicated bike.

If I was getting sub 22 10's then I'd probably go for the whole Skinsuit, Wheels, Bike, Overshoes etc.

There was a story about how David Millar turned up to a local club 10 last year and he rode his best bike. Smashed the course record by about 20 secs as well

cougie

Just 20 secs ? Bit disappointing really ?

oldwelshman

Personally I do not think it makes that much diference at "our" level, 30 seconds at most which is probably how much you could loose or gain due to conditions.
In fact i would go as far to say the standard these days is not as good as years ago.
I look at the times in the mag each week and apart from the top times they are average.
I remember riders lie Pete Longbottom, darrel Wester, Ian Cammish and John Pritchard doing the times seen now on normal bikes.In fact I believe Ian Cammish is still doing good times, but no better on TT bikes.
My best time for a 10 was a short 22 and I was not even in top 30.
I see most of Beryl Burtons records are still standing :-)

itsallinthelegs

andrewgturnbull wrote:

Ok, so I've bought my aero bike, deep dished carbon and disk wheels, skinsuit and pointy hat. Now you suggest that I should only use them once or twice a year?

I spend 10 to 15 hours a week training, when I turn up at a race I make sure I'm prepared, and bring my best game to the start line. Why shouldn't I bring my best bike too?

I personally know of several people who have been put off attending club 10s for the very reason that they feel that they would be way out of their depth. Yes, I KNOW that a TT is supposed to be a race against yourself, but realistically, who doesn't eagerly check their ranking as soon as the times are up? And if it is just a race against yourself, why not ride the course by yourself, or head down to your nearest velodrome if you want to test out all your gear? Clearly, it is because racing against others and trying to get the best time gives an added thrill. And so it should!!

Basically, what is under discussion here is the need for some sort of handicap system, or a system similar to road racing in which you are placed into a category. This would help people compare their times against others of similar standard.

I completely agree with the principle of turning up to a race/TT fully prepared and psyched up. I train hard for these events. But at the same time, my situation as a student leaves me VERY little cash to spend on kit! When you are in the position of having to save money just to buy a crappy second-hand pair of clip-on aero-bars, it's incredibly frustrating to race against people who clearly have money to spend and not ever know how closely matched you really would be given similar kit!

Titanium

It sounds to me like your frustration is because you have a limited income, or just different priorities, compared to those you are racing against.

Brit TTs aren't about racing with others so if you want to compare yourself to someone else who is on a much similar machine, do some bunch races.

cougie

I wonder if the time is right to have an 'unmodified' series of events. Fixed wheel seems more popular than ever before - we could have an 'athletes' series. No tribars, aero wheels or aero helmets.

leonlikestrees

Titanium wrote:

Brit TTs aren't about racing with others

No time trials (well, maybe team trials) are about racing with others. If they are not about racing against others though, why are prizes offered? Why do we have national championships in time trialling? Perhaps they should be awarded to the person who improved the most, rather than the person recording the fastest time?

Titanium wrote:

so if you want to compare yourself to someone else who is on a much similar machine, do some bunch races.

Bunch races are a totally different kettle of fish, as are track racing and mountain biking.

itsallinthelegs

Titanium wrote:

It sounds to me like your frustration is because you have a limited income, or just different priorities, compared to those you are racing against.

No s*** Sherlock! That's precisely what I said!

Titanium wrote:

Brit TTs aren't about racing with others so if you want to compare yourself to someone else who is on a much similar machine, do some bunch races.

It seems that leonlikestrees has beaten me to this obvious point, but road racing is a different discipline altogether! I do road race when I can as well, but also enjoy TTs. IMO, they ARE about racing against other ppl, and while everyone is of course racing against their PB as well, the fun comes from measuring yourself against other riders.

PhilthyPhil

oldwelshman wrote:

Personally I do not think it makes that much diference at "our" level, 30 seconds at most which is probably how much you could loose or gain due to conditions.

Better (more aero) kit makes MORE of a difference to the slower rider than the faster rider in a time trial due to the fact that the slower rider will experience the gains over a greater period of time. If the race is for a fixed time period the situation is reversed and the faster rider will gain more.

Kléber

leonlikestrees wrote:

Bunch races are a totally different kettle of fish, as are track racing and mountain biking.

But apart from cyclo-cross, they are probably the most equal type of events you can get. MTBs vary in weight and design (hardtail, full sus) a lot and some track bikes are TT bikes with their disc wheels and carbon bars. You can have a road bike from Colnago with Record and Boras, or go to Halfords but once you've spent, say, £600 the returns diminish significantly, especially in terms of performance.

As for TTs, remember that it's the position, not the kit that makes the big difference. Buy a small frame and put some TT bars on and you're there. Pick up a second hand aero front wheel and you'll have a fast bike.

Titanium

itsallinthelegs wrote:

Titanium wrote:

It sounds to me like your frustration is because you have a limited income, or just different priorities, compared to those you are racing against.

No s*** Sherlock! That's precisely what I said!

I know, I was being polite but let me put it bluntly: get a job and work hard. Maybe you're annoyed because those around you are wealthier and more successful.

And before I get soapboxed, let me add that money doesn't equal success and I know that buying a fast bike isn't sporting.

But then maybe the most important piece of a Brit TT rider's kit seems to be his car, so he can drive for miles to find the ideal stretch of trunk road and get aspirated by passing trucks to help him ride faster and claim a fast time. In sporting terms, a performance should not have to rely on traffic density.

itsallinthelegs

Titanium wrote:

I know, I was being polite but let me put it bluntly: get a job and work hard. Maybe you're annoyed because those around you are wealthier and more successful.

Got a beef with students have we? You may not be familiar with the concept, but the idea is to go to University in order to get a good job AFTERWARDS! Sure, I get part-time work when my studying allows it, but this has to pay for essentials ie food and rent! No doubt I am prioritising survival over cycling - how uncommitted...

Let's try not to get personal issues mixed in to a very interesting debate. I liked cougie's idea of an 'unmodified' series, to strip it down to the basics. Also, it would be interesting to hear more opinions about whether TTs are purely raced against the clock, or whether there is a big element of competition with other riders (as there is for me).

Monty Dog

Some of the attitudes here perhaps explain the reason why TT'ing is seen such a cul-de-sac - the average size of fields is decreasing and the average age of riders increasing. I think the propensity of 'fast kit' is more due to available disposal income, than a genuine pressure to buy flash kit - although it may appear that way to newcomers. I for one can never see the logic of getting up at dawn to drive 100 miles for a 'fast 10 or 25'. If I can't ride to the course, I don't bother. Get yourself an old track frame and ride TT's on fixed - you'll be one of only a few in the field and you'll learn far more about going 'fast' than just dropping your credit card in pursuit of speed.

andrewgturnbull

Hi there.

Students have an unfair advantage! Try working 40 hours+ a week, chasing about after 2 young kids, and then trying to find time to train!

I need to buy all the speed I can!

As soon as you can afford it you'll be buying disc wheels off ebay too.

Cheers, Andy

ps And don't try to pretend that uni is hard work... I've got 2 engineering degrees - it seemed like hard work at the time, but in reality it was a doddle compared to the working life that came afterwards.

pps All the aero kit will be coming out this weekend

frenchfighter

Absolutely agree with itsallinthelegs (your name says it all!). I am in the same position and don't have the means to spend several hundreds on aids, and even if I did I wouldn't.

The feeling you talk about itsallinthelegs, on beating those on expensive machines is one I am familiar with. For example at the BUSA 10 this year I rode a Bianchi C2C Via Nirone 7 Sora 8sp, the only aid being standard clip on aero bars; the total cost of my bike, accessories and clothing was less than £600. It was the first TT I had ever rode and I set a low 24mins putting me in the top third.

How can someone riding a 3k TT bike feel proud of beating someone on a standard road bike with little to no performance aids? Surely much more satisfaction is derived from knowing that you beat your PB on pure strength and speed alone, then by using what amounts to artificial enhancements. But then as people have mentioned, it is their choice...

In order for the TTs to be truly fair and balanced then some sort of handicap or classification system needs to be introduced. Failing that there need to be TTs that have explicit rules on allowable performance aids.

andrewgturnbull: I find some of your comments in the above posts inappropriate, offensive and uncalled for. You say that you have two kids and a demanding job; shouldn't you then be a bit more mature and diplomatic?

Also those with a lot of experience should be encouraging the youth to participate and train hard rather than belittleing them and making snide remarks.

I for one am a fan of the cycling era where individuals won on pure merit and class rather than by external aids and there were no teams, or they played a less important part. For example the proliferation of radios has made the professional sport much less interesting and romantic, but then that is a different topic...

JustRidecp

andrewgturnbull wrote:

ps And don't try to pretend that uni is hard work... I've got 2 engineering degrees - it seemed like hard work at the time, but in reality it was a doddle compared to the working life that came afterwards.

C'mon pal. Undergrad isn't hard but I'm drawing to the end of a taught, postgrad MSc and its been totally fuckin hard - the amount of commitment and time you need to give is far more than with a job. A job finishes at 5pm on a friday and starts again monday morning. I've effectively sacrificed most of my weekends and evenings for the past 12 months to stay on top of the work.

Although I should add that the course I'm doing claims to be hard. Its the first thing they let you know at interview!!

andrewgturnbull

frenchfighter wrote:

andrewgturnbull: I find some of your comments in the above posts inappropriate, offensive and uncalled for. You say that you have two kids and a demanding job; shouldn't you then be a bit more mature and diplomatic?

Hi there.

Offensive? Uncalled for?

Please explain what I said that upset you so much and I'll apologise.

frenchfighter wrote:

andrewgturnbull wrote:

ps And don't try to pretend that uni is hard work... I've got 2 engineering degrees - it seemed like hard work at the time, but in reality it was a doddle compared to the working life that came afterwards.


C'mon pal. Undergrad isn't hard but I'm drawing to the end of a taught, postgrad MSc and its been totally fuckin hard - the amount of commitment and time you need to give is far more than with a job. A job finishes at 5pm on a friday and starts again monday morning. I've effectively sacrificed most of my weekends and evenings for the past 12 months to stay on top of the work.

The more observant amongst you might have notices that if I've done 2 degrees, the second must have been a postgrad...

I must remember the 5pm rule more often - I finished putting a new build onto a customer's app server at 11pm last night.

Like I said, I too thought uni was hard work when I was there. I'd have said exactly the same as you at the time.

Cheers, Andy