These testosterone postives...

iainf72

Is there something new being used? I've wondered this and decided to consult the experts.

[Warning : Link not for the faint hearted]

http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/Forum/ ... &forumid=9

And you'll see they're wondering too. A few of the people think the T:E ratio's are so massive it's unlike anything they've seen before.

Could there be a new technique?

vermooten

[forum won't let me delete this post for some reason]

vermooten

This thread seems to be about how not to waste valuable EPO.
http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/Forum/ ... adid=18583

The forum itself seems ot have dodgy undertones. I was going ot do somethinguseful today but now it looks like I'll be reading all of this stuff.

EDIT: dodgy undertones? Wow these people are sharing knowledge on how to cheat, mostly cycling related too. Mostly Americans by the sound of it. I'm shocked and stunned, and fascinated too.

AndyGates

The bodybuilding subculture is chockful of drug stuff; this is the baldest crossover though, fascinating reading isn't it?

iainf72

Aye, it's a mad forum.

I've seen UK testers posting on there before for advice on EPO dosing etc. The weirdest thread was one where someone had "borrowed" some blood transfusion kit from a hospital and wanted to try it.

vermooten

That forum ends what little naïveté I had left.

iainf72

vermooten wrote:

That forum ends what little naïveté I had left.

It's shocking at first for sure.

It does prove that getting advice on doping is not difficult at all.

Also, I'd never considered it, but it looks like boxers are likely EPO users too.

vermooten

The cuttingedgemuscle forum, while a bit depressing and so on, isn't illegal. It's perfectly ok for a rider to get some EPO or whatever and inject it, so long as it was obtained legally.

Except in France, where doping is illegal - and if the statements of the pro riders are to be believed then French riders tend not to do what Lance called "naughty things". Riders from other countries do but riders living in France do not. Is this at least in part because they know that as well as being banned and shamed etc they'll get a criminal record?

Would making doping illegal help the situation? I suspect it would make riders think twice before risking a micro-dose of EPO after a tough training ride. Thoughts?

Mr Bumble

I am all for making doping illegal and a criminal offence....that cuttingedgemuscle site damn well ruined my day :?

Not a whiff of ethics...

Kléber

I've seen it before and it shocked me for a minute, then afterwards I was saddened.

I don't wish illness on anyone but these guys are fast-track "Darwin award" candidates. In the never ending quest to boost their performance (except by actually training), these guys are increasing their chances of cancer, heart disease and organ failure. People dispense "advice" but it's short termist and the experience of what worked for one person on the forum is taken to be good for all. If clinical trials for these products worked like this, it would be genocide. Maybe I should register and post health warnings?

At the end of the day, it's just another sign of consumer culture going to the extreme and we'll always have weirdos. It's a distorted mirror, but it's a reflection of a business that encourages people to spend money to save 25 grams on a saddle. Of course, buying kit is legal and fair though. And these products cost a lot of money, as much as I want to ride fast, I'd sooner spend the money on a training camp in the Pyrenees, not only would I come back stronger but I'd have had a great time, met new people and seen some stunning scenery.

But that's just me, obviously some people yearn to win a crit in California or to time trial on British trunk roads, but to think you're risking your health for £30 prize money, a free cup of tea in the village hall and a pat on the back from a clubmate, it's so desperately tragic.

SteveR_100Milers

Kléber wrote:

I've seen it before and it shocked me for a minute, then afterwards I was saddened.

I don't wish illness on anyone but these guys are fast-track "Darwin award" candidates. In the never ending quest to boost their performance (except by actually training), these guys are increasing their chances of cancer, heart disease and organ failure. People dispense "advice" but it's short termist and the experience of what worked for one person on the forum is taken to be good for all. If clinical trials for these products worked like this, it would be genocide. Maybe I should register and post health warnings?

At the end of the day, it's just another sign of consumer culture going to the extreme and we'll always have weirdos. It's a distorted mirror, but it's a reflection of a business that encourages people to spend money to save 25 grams on a saddle. Of course, buying kit is legal and fair though. And these products cost a lot of money, as much as I want to ride fast, I'd sooner spend the money on a training camp in the Pyrenees, not only would I come back stronger but I'd have had a great time, met new people and seen some stunning scenery.
But that's just me, obviously some people yearn to win a crit in California or to time trial on British trunk roads, but to think you're risking your health for £30 prize money, a free cup of tea in the village hall and a pat on the back from a clubmate, it's so desperately tragic.

Agree with all of this. Kind of makes you realise that when you stop enjoying just riding a bike, then its time to stop doing it. Its so easy to lose sight of what makes it so much fun.

Dorian Gray

iainf72, could you link to the particular thread in which those people are wondering about the recent testosterone positives? I had a look but couldn't find that (no shortage of other unsavoury stuff there though!).

moray_gub

Dorian Gray wrote:

iainf72, could you link to the particular thread in which those people are wondering about the recent testosterone positives? I had a look but couldn't find that (no shortage of other unsavoury stuff there though!).

http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/Forum/ ... adid=18662


Here ya go scroll down a bit through that thread and you will find posters asking the question. Dont know about you but that site is bloody awful in fact its kinda depressing .

cheers
MG

Captain Fagor

It's tempting to join so that you can see some of the members' photographs.

As (ironically) Jean-Claude Van Damme once said in one of his corny movies: Too much muscle, not enough speed!

And yes, it is a depressing site.

Dorian Gray

Thanks Moray. I knew drugs were absolutely rife among gym rats, but didn't quite expect that in amateur cycling and other endurance sports. Eye-opening site, isn't it?

iainf72

Kléber wrote:

People dispense "advice" but it's short termist and the experience of what worked for one person on the forum is taken to be good for all. If clinical trials for these products worked like this, it would be genocide. Maybe I should register and post health warnings?

Here's an interesting question for you : If I went to my doctor and said "I'm going to take rEPO, can you offer me advice?" what would you expect?

Assume he cannot convince me not to do it.

Should he offer medical advise to me? After all, that would be the best way to safeguard my health?

drenkrom

My grandfather is a hematologist (yes, he still practices at age 79) and I put that question to him once. As a doctor, he'd have to give advice to make your experience as safe as possible. He can't legally stop you from doing it, unless he knows for a fact that your EPO source is illegal. Then he could report you.

LangerDan

I think I'd far rather that the doctor told you (not you personally, Iain ) to feck off as he has genuinely sick people to deal with.

SteveR_100Milers

iainf72 wrote:

Kléber wrote:

People dispense "advice" but it's short termist and the experience of what worked for one person on the forum is taken to be good for all. If clinical trials for these products worked like this, it would be genocide. Maybe I should register and post health warnings?

Here's an interesting question for you : If I went to my doctor and said "I'm going to take rEPO, can you offer me advice?" what would you expect?

Assume he cannot convince me not to do it.

Should he offer medical advise to me? After all, that would be the best way to safeguard my health?

I'd expect mine to tell me to bugger off and stop wasting his and other patients time and money if I'm going to deliberately abuse my body. My GP almost said as much when I asked about doing a max HR test.

bennyhana22

By crikey that forum is a shocker!

Don't these guys (I'm presuming they're all blokes as most girls are far to sensible for that bollocks) know that people DIE on EPO? We're all familiar with the stories of pros being woken in the night to run or get on the rollers to avoid the complications of raised blood viscosity. And there were still a multitude of pro cardiac deaths when being looked after by 'medical experts'! Now I know that knowledge has increased and that will filter down to your amateur but even so...and for what? So you can beat some other ordinary guy in a 10 or a crit? Ugh!

I suppose its no different to the body builders who dope with NO expectation of ever achieving success beyond the very amateur ranks. They still feel driven to cheat to be the biggest fish in their little pond.

As said in numerous posts, that's not why we ride our bikes, is it?

Ben (just a little bit depressed now...)

AndyGates

But when everyone does it, is it still cheating? The playing field is level, sort of, not doping would be like riding that old five-speed Peugeot.

Devil's advocate question: why shouldn't I use all the pharma I can afford to be the best I can be -- and why should you object to it if I'm not competing against you? Bitching about my doping is as irrelevant as my bitching about your flexitime job which lets you train long hours. Everyone has and takes the advantages they can.

Eurostar

Those numbskulls on that how-to-dope forum - do they have a way to measure their haematocrit level? How do they know they're going to pass a test?

LangerDan

AndyGates wrote:

But when everyone does it, is it still cheating? The playing field is level, sort of, not doping would be like riding that old five-speed Peugeot.

Devil's advocate question: why shouldn't I use all the pharma I can afford to be the best I can be -- and why should you object to it if I'm not competing against you? Bitching about my doping is as irrelevant as my bitching about your flexitime job which lets you train long hours. Everyone has and takes the advantages they can.

There is a very fundamental issue with doping. Suppose it is legalised, or at the very least tolerated. At what stage does it become acceptable to start doping. When a rider becomes pro? elite? 3rd cat? junior? U-16? Stopping riders below the "acceptable" age from using drugs would probably be as successful as stopping underage drinking and smoking.

AndyGates

Yup and it would probably damage lots of young athletes' health. Mind you, the runners with crippling shinsplints and triathletes with zonk-out overtraining I've seen, maybe it would just change the nature of the injuries..!

blackhands

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Kléber wrote:

People dispense "advice" but it's short termist and the experience of what worked for one person on the forum is taken to be good for all. If clinical trials for these products worked like this, it would be genocide. Maybe I should register and post health warnings?

Here's an interesting question for you : If I went to my doctor and said "I'm going to take rEPO, can you offer me advice?" what would you expect?

Assume he cannot convince me not to do it.

Should he offer medical advise to me? After all, that would be the best way to safeguard my health?

I'd expect mine to tell me to bugger off and stop wasting his and other patients time and money if I'm going to deliberately abuse my body. My GP almost said as much when I asked about doing a max HR test.

and yet he presumably quite happily treats poeple killing themselves with overeating, smoking etc.

Kléber

We're not talking about a sip of coffee. Even taking amphetamines, the kind clubbers take, can kill a rider thanks to the effort and dehydration.

Riders spend ages on the road and maybe those with the time to train get an advantage. But what about the guy who gets up early in the morning to train before work? Or someone who goes to spinning classes in his lunch break?

Once doping is legalised, it's no longer sport but pharmacology. Already the Tour de France is shrouded in doubt, did it take a few seconds of effort to separate some riders, or was it a few milligrams of something else?

These hormones encourage growth. Whether it's growth in red blood cells or muscle tissue, studies suggest they also encourage other growths, like tumours. And abusing them in the doses that are apparently taken by dopers is waaay beyond the scope of the clinical trials that suggest hormone use increases the incidence of cancer.

Besides, doping is unfair because it's expensive. A course of EPO costs the same as a good bike and you can't get it legally in Britain. So maybe some seek the blackmarket.

As you can see from this cuttingedge forum, it's a fast-track to a Darwin Award. There's always a "more is better" attitude from some, and just as some riders might overtrain, a few idiots will overdose.

Finally, it just takes away the fun. Anyone who's played computer games will know the quickest way to ruin a game is to use some "cheat code" to get "infinite lives" etc, what was once a challenge becomes dull.

I can see why pros do it but for amateurs who ride for fun and not money, it just seems a miserable avenue to follow.

Finally, on Iain's "doctor question", I'd hope the GP tells you to stop wasting his time. For starters, my GP knows all about chicken pox and bad backs, but for him I'm sure EPO means evening primrose oil. It's like walking in and saying you plan on slashing your wrists and asking advice on ways to minimise any resulting infection to the wounds. He has a duty to help you, but not to accompany you in your stupidity.

drenkrom

At least I have a new excuse when I get blown in a hill sprint on a club ride.

"They must all be cuttingedgemuscle.com members!"

bennyhana22

AndyGates wrote:

But when everyone does it, is it still cheating? The playing field is level, sort of, not doping would be like riding that old five-speed Peugeot.

Devil's advocate question: why shouldn't I use all the pharma I can afford to be the best I can be -- and why should you object to it if I'm not competing against you? Bitching about my doping is as irrelevant as my bitching about your flexitime job which lets you train long hours. Everyone has and takes the advantages they can.

You're right, Andy - why should anyone object and why shouldn't someone use if they can afford it? It's down to how you resolve those issues personally. I would like to think that all Pro bike dopers feel like Millar claims to have felt. Naively or not, I personally believe his claims that he genuinely felt his achievements and victories were hollow and essentially meaningless because they were won not by endeavour alone but by doping. and that's how I would feel. I 'race/compete' very rarely 'cause I've got three young kids and a busy job, but when I do I train for it very hard (i.e. out at 5.30a.m. and back when the kids are having breakfast so as not to lose time with them) because I want to do well. I could probably dope - I'm a doc, I could probably find someone who knows someone who knows...etc. But then getting a top 10% finish in the Etape or the Fred Whitton or whatever would mean exactly bugger all. It's SPORT, it's endeavour, it's getting reward from hard work. To me the Dark Side is just pointless. And as for being able to afford it - the flipside to that is the expensive bike issue: How often have you had a wry smile on your face when you fly up a climb past the £5000 Colnago on your Old faithful in the knowledge that actually It's not about the bike, it's about the legs - the ones built on ENDOGENOUS testosterone...

iainf72

bennyhana22 wrote:

By crikey that forum is a shocker!

Don't these guys (I'm presuming they're all blokes as most girls are far to sensible for that bollocks) know that people DIE on EPO?

I know it used to happen, but EPO is well understood now and if you're under medical supervision you're unlikely to die.

Maybe longer term you might get issues that we don't know about yet but, as the Doctor said, the problem isn't orange juice, it's the abuse of orange juice.

As with recreational drugs the danger is if you say to someone "EPO will kill you", they think "balls to that", try it and hey presto, it's all good and they don't die. Then they figure they know better and start using some experimental animal blood product or something.

SteveR_100Milers

Kléber wrote:

We're not talking about a sip of coffee. Even taking amphetamines, the kind clubbers take, can kill a rider thanks to the effort and dehydration.

Riders spend ages on the road and maybe those with the time to train get an advantage. But what about the guy who gets up early in the morning to train before work? Or someone who goes to spinning classes in his lunch break?

Once doping is legalised, it's no longer sport but pharmacology. Already the Tour de France is shrouded in doubt, did it take a few seconds of effort to separate some riders, or was it a few milligrams of something else?

These hormones encourage growth. Whether it's growth in red blood cells or muscle tissue, studies suggest they also encourage other growths, like tumours. And abusing them in the doses that are apparently taken by dopers is waaay beyond the scope of the clinical trials that suggest hormone use increases the incidence of cancer.

Besides, doping is unfair because it's expensive. A course of EPO costs the same as a good bike and you can't get it legally in Britain. So maybe some seek the blackmarket.

As you can see from this cuttingedge forum, it's a fast-track to a Darwin Award. There's always a "more is better" attitude from some, and just as some riders might overtrain, a few idiots will overdose.

Finally, it just takes away the fun. Anyone who's played computer games will know the quickest way to ruin a game is to use some "cheat code" to get "infinite lives" etc, what was once a challenge becomes dull.

I can see why pros do it but for amateurs who ride for fun and not money, it just seems a miserable avenue to follow.

Finally, on Iain's "doctor question", I'd hope the GP tells you to stop wasting his time. For starters, my GP knows all about chicken pox and bad backs, but for him I'm sure EPO means evening primrose oil. It's like walking in and saying you plan on slashing your wrists and asking advice on ways to minimise any resulting infection to the wounds. He has a duty to help you, but not to accompany you in your stupidity.

and in response to the other post smoking and drinking arguably fall into that category. The difference is that many people have smoked and drunk before the full effects were known, and certainly drinking is part of our social culture whether you like it or not. I really don't think that injecting artifical hormones into your body is an equivalent abuse.

iainf72

Kléber wrote:

Finally, on Iain's "doctor question", I'd hope the GP tells you to stop wasting his time. For starters, my GP knows all about chicken pox and bad backs, but for him I'm sure EPO means evening primrose oil. It's like walking in and saying you plan on slashing your wrists and asking advice on ways to minimise any resulting infection to the wounds. He has a duty to help you, but not to accompany you in your stupidity.

I asked because that's what happened with Max Testa, the Motorola team doctor. Some of the guys went to him and said they were going to take EPO and what should they do. He didn't help them but produced them a single sheet on how to not do harm to themselves.

Or you could just go to a "Anti Ageing Doctor" and get loads of hormones and stuff with instructions.