How to climb like Contador?

Haynes

Well not exactly, but i tend to climb quite fast which is ok on our Sunday Club rides and riding on my own, but ive done a couple of hilly road races only to get dropped over the summit because ive put into too much effort early on then cant quite keep up with the attack.

Has anyone got any good work outs thatll keep me riding easy with intervals to practice hill attacks? What sort of heart rate and cadence should i use to climb easy? How long does an attack need to be, 10 pedal stokes or 60 seconds or what?

Or would it be better to practice attacking before the summit then keeping the gas on over the top and beyond for several minutes?

ANDE.B

He looked like he'd got the "lance style" fast cadence going on... so keeping cadance above 90rpm up the hills as its more energy-efficient.
10-20min training sessions pedalling at 120rpm helps (though it feels like your pedalling is useless at first).

binlinus

Haynes wrote:

Well not exactly, but i tend to climb quite fast which is ok on our Sunday Club rides and riding on my own, but ive done a couple of hilly road races only to get dropped over the summit because ive put into too much effort early on then cant quite keep up with the attack.

You need to do some workouts that will help you sustain the power up the hill and beyond. I'd say some intervals on hills the same length as you're getting dropped on. If the hills are four minutes long then intervals of 4 to five, maybe six minutes done five times with 4 minutes rest in between. The interval should be done as hard as you can sustain them over that time period repeatedly. The last interval should really hurt. :twisted:

Bin

Ric_Stern/RST

ANDE.B wrote:

He looked like he'd got the "lance style" fast cadence going on... so keeping cadance above 90rpm up the hills as its more energy-efficient.
10-20min training sessions pedalling at 120rpm helps (though it feels like your pedalling is useless at first).

A couple of things
1) Contrary to what Phil and Paul kept saying on the Tour de France, a high cadence (versus a lower cadence) is *not* more energy efficient. It's actually the opposite, a higher cadence is more thermodynamically inefficient and causes energy to be expended at a greater rate

2) for most people, especially with road style gears and in the UK where the hills tend to be steeper (although this would still apply to Alpine type climbs), it's generally impossible to pedal at such a high cadence for any period of time. This is because, riding in a specific gear at a specific cadence causes us to go at a specific velocity (not withstanding downhills or tailwinds). This specific velocity will require a certain power output to be generated to cause forward motion. Unfortunately, because, road gearing isn't generally very low (e.g., 39 x 23 bottom gear) and because the hills are quite steep, the required power for a specific velocity and cadence will be beyond most riders including elite athletes.

For e.g., a 70 kg rider plus 8 kg bike and 2 kg of kit riding 39 x 23 at 90 revs/min travels at ~ 19.4 km/hr or 5.39 m/s. On a 10% grade this would require a power of ~ 475 W, or a power to mass ratio of 6.8 W/kg. A 1st category racer may be able to manage that power to mass ratio for ~ 3 to 4-mins as a one-off all-out maximal effort (not within a regular training session).

Bin has the right idea for intervals

Ric

trimonkey

the idea behind high cadence riding is that it utilises the slow twitch muscle fibres, which enable you to maintain pedalling without tiring your legs too much. The fast twitch muscle fibres enable you to make short sharp efforts, such as sprints, but cannot be maintained for a long period.

thus, a faster cadence is more maintainable on a long climb, and means that your legs are not totally knackered by the time you reach the summit.

Theres a more scientific explanation, but I think the above gives you the gist of it.

Good luck

gkerr4

Ric_Stern/RST wrote:

ANDE.B wrote:

He looked like he'd got the "lance style" fast cadence going on... so keeping cadance above 90rpm up the hills as its more energy-efficient.
10-20min training sessions pedalling at 120rpm helps (though it feels like your pedalling is useless at first).

A couple of things
1) Contrary to what Phil and Paul kept saying on the Tour de France, a high cadence (versus a lower cadence) is *not* more energy efficient. It's actually the opposite, a higher cadence is more thermodynamically inefficient and causes energy to be expended at a greater rate

2) for most people, especially with road style gears and in the UK where the hills tend to be steeper (although this would still apply to Alpine type climbs), it's generally impossible to pedal at such a high cadence for any period of time. This is because, riding in a specific gear at a specific cadence causes us to go at a specific velocity (not withstanding downhills or tailwinds). This specific velocity will require a certain power output to be generated to cause forward motion. Unfortunately, because, road gearing isn't generally very low (e.g., 39 x 23 bottom gear) and because the hills are quite steep, the required power for a specific velocity and cadence will be beyond most riders including elite athletes.

For e.g., a 70 kg rider plus 8 kg bike and 2 kg of kit riding 39 x 23 at 90 revs/min travels at ~ 19.4 km/hr or 5.39 m/s. On a 10% grade this would require a power of ~ 475 W, or a power to mass ratio of 6.8 W/kg. A 1st category racer may be able to manage that power to mass ratio for ~ 3 to 4-mins as a one-off all-out maximal effort (not within a regular training session).

Bin has the right idea for intervals

Ric

then surely the way forward is to not be snobbish about triple chainsets? (not directed at you - just the general roadie attitude towards triples - and sometimes even compacts!)

Thats a great calculation you have there - care to share it?

I know what you mean about having to sustain a certain rpm. I find I that on climbs I need to stay above about 70rpm other wise my legs 'bog down', it feels as though it becomes anaerobic and things grind to a halt pretty quick. If I can settle into a nice tempo and keep above 70rpm then I am fine. so with my triplle chainset i can plug away at most things in 30 x 23, 30 x 25 or 30 x 27 and the minimum speed for those gear, at that cadence is around 8.5mph - which I can sustain on most climbs I have found in the UK and some "junior slopes" in the alps

again - a great calculation - fancy sharing it??

graham

Ric_Stern/RST

gkerr4 wrote:

then surely the way forward is to not be snobbish about triple chainsets? (not directed at you - just the general roadie attitude towards triples - and sometimes even compacts!)

indeed, you're correct. However, most people will stick to 'normal' gears.

Thats a great calculation you have there - care to share it?

everything you need is at www.analyticcycling.com

I know what you mean about having to sustain a certain rpm. I find I that on climbs I need to stay above about 70rpm other wise my legs 'bog down', it feels as though it becomes anaerobic and things grind to a halt pretty quick.

you only go anaerobic if the intensity is high enough (i.e. > VO2max). Once anaerobic, you grind to a halt rapidly whether you pedal at high or low cadence (although you'd probably fatigue at a faster rate at a lower cadence)

cheers
ric

Kléber

It sounds like you are going anaerobic at the foot of the climb. Not good.

Remember, anyone can attack and open up a quick gap, the hard part is to turn a five second lead into a two minute gap. So try to time your attack for when the others are tired and you won't need to sprint clear of the bunch, just a short effort to get a gap.

And often people charge up hills but the moment you get to the top, everyone sits up tired. That can be the time to go clear. Of course, going on the steepest part of the hill can be good, but this tends to work only on very long climbs when everyone is at their limits and you're the fittest rider there...

nolf

A normal gear of 39 * 23 is pretty high!

That must knacker your knees completely on a long climb!

oldwelshman

nolf wrote:

A normal gear of 39 * 23 is pretty high!

That must knacker your knees completely on a long climb!

Not really that is quite low.
Year ago the standard gearing was 42/52 front and 13/21 rear and I never had problems even in hilly races such as the 5 valleys ( roughly same as dragong ride).
These days I use 39/53 and 12/23 and to be honest the races now do not have such long climbs as before. I used to prefer the old type courses of one large cicruit, these days they are 3 or 5 laps of same cicuit , sometimes with a "hill2 in, but not real climbs
I have found if you use bigger than 23 or 21 on rear you will get dropped in a race as you will not keep up.
There is a difference in riding up these climbs in a club run or training compared to a race and basically all the talk about how to ride a climb is bollocks you have to stay up with them or you get dropped!! I had the great idea of not going above 160 HR ( I have low hr max) but gave that idea up when I was getting dropped.
Then I had another idea, sit down and twiddle with high cadence !! Again I was getting dropped so just changed up a gear, got out of saddle, maxed out on HR but at least I did not get dropped !!!
Attack on a hill? I just do enough to stay with leaders as it is not often you get lone breakways on a climb so it is more important to try to keep up with minimum effort, which some times for me has beem max effort Getting better now though and climbed well on Gran Fondo in Italy

In answer to original post how to climb like Contador? easy take EPO!!!!! Or get same doctor as Discovery use

wastelander

Normally I'm fine on the local hills but tackling Holme Moss yesterday (the hardest climb I've yet tried) from the Holmefirth side I blewup in a big way at the 1.5 mile mark. I'd love to know how I can take this lesson and train more specifically for steep hills that are going to hurt - all suitable training suggestions gratefully appreciated as I'm planning to visit the Alps in summer 2009. 20 months may seem a long way off but I figure that the earlier I start the better I'll get at climbing!

binlinus

wastelander wrote:

Normally I'm fine on the local hills but tackling Holme Moss yesterday (the hardest climb I've yet tried) from the Holmefirth side I blewup in a big way at the 1.5 mile mark. I'd love to know how I can take this lesson and train more specifically for steep hills that are going to hurt - all suitable training suggestions gratefully appreciated as I'm planning to visit the Alps in summer 2009. 20 months may seem a long way off but I figure that the earlier I start the better I'll get at climbing!

Holm Moss is more of a classic long hill rather than the short sharp hills we have in the UK (I seem to remember as I've only rode it once and that was several years ago).

You need good aerobic fitness to get up hills like Holme Moss and the Alpine passes. Two types of interval training will do this for you.

1. 2 x 20 mins with 15-20 mins recovery. Both intervals equally hard and as hard as you can. Best when well rested.

2. 5 x 5 minutes with 5 mins recovery. All intervals should be equally as hard as each other and as hard as you can go. Best done on a hill that takes five minutes to climb. And again you need to be well recovered to do these.

Both these intervals will increase the output from your heart and lungs to your muscles. You'll build a bigger engine.

You also need to maintain your endurace base with a long easy ride once a week 2 to 4 hours.

HTH

Bin

wastelander

Thanks for the training advice. The first part (from Holmefirth side) after the cricket pitch is a 13% climb which levels out to 5-6% after maybe 1/2 mile then it hits you with another 13% chunk another 1/2 mile up the road! Pretty sharp to me I guess after that I just ran out of steam so the intervals make perfect sense. It was disappointing to get over the worst of the hill only to be beaten by the sheer size of it. I'll let you know how I get on in a couple of months 8)

binlinus

wastelander wrote:

Thanks for the training advice. The first part (from Holmefirth side) after the cricket pitch is a 13% climb which levels out to 5-6% after maybe 1/2 mile then it hits you with another 13% chunk another 1/2 mile up the road! Pretty sharp to me I guess after that I just ran out of steam so the intervals make perfect sense. It was disappointing to get over the worst of the hill only to be beaten by the sheer size of it. I'll let you know how I get on in a couple of months 8)

My memory is failing me. I remember it now. I think at the time I was more concerned about the strong headwind I was pushing into.

Bin