Motorbike or bicycle - which makes you more vulnerarable?

rjcastillo

I've noticed that a number of people here are bikers as well as cyclists, so I wonder which leaves you feeling more vulnerable. IMO it's the motobike; I've not worked out why, that's just how it is for me!

Your thoughts?

Hairy Jock

It is easy to get a motorbike with more power than the inexperienced rider knows how to handle. As a cyclist the increase of power available only comes with experience, you can't just go out and buy extra muscle...

rjcastillo

Granted, but I've been riding motorbikes for 18 years. Given that fact I guess I'm so old that I can't ride fast enough to get myself in to trouble!

Seriously though I feel that on a motorbike I over take all other traffic faster than I am overtaken when on a bicycle. Maybe that's why it feels less risky.

dangerousjules

i've had the full weight of a yamaha R1 on top of my right leg after taking a drop...i would without hesitation say that being on a motorbike makes you more vulnerable, i still to this day am nervous around motorbikes even when they wizz past me when they illegally use the cycle lanes. my body has been re-built with titanium and steel so trust me i know how dangerous and vulnerable you can be on motorbikes and bicycles!

BentMikey

This is a pointless poll. Motorbikes are far more dangerous, around 4 times more so than bicycles according to the 2001 PACT stats.

squired

Apparently my dad spent the best part of a year in hospital after having his legs smashed to pieces by a van that ran a red light and ploughed into his motorbike. Without hesitation I think he would say motorbikes in answer to the question (and yes, he does cycle too, although only short distances).

Teuchter

squired wrote:

Apparently my dad spent the best part of a year in hospital after having his legs smashed to pieces by a van that ran a red light and ploughed into his motorbike.

Would he really have been much better off on a pushbike?

Maybe I'm biassed having done far more motorbike miles than cycle miles. I've ridden all over Europe on motorbikes and have worked as both a motorbike courier and instructor. I know that in my hands I feel far less vulnerable on a motorbike than a pushbike and day by day have fewer close shaves. Saying that, the close shaves I have had on the pushbike have not really been of a serious injury threatening nature while on a motorbike the speeds would probably have been far higher.

That I feel holds true for an experienced motorcyclist vs a relatively inexperienced cyclist (like myself and I think rjcastillo).

Bicycles are however far more forgiving to inexperienced riders than motorbikes are. Even with motorbikes percieved as being low powered, it is very easy for an inexperienced rider to get into trouble. The classic would be to bottle it mid corner, grab a handful of brakes and bury themselves in a tree, wall or oncoming traffic.

My own feeling is that motorbikes are more at risk from own-fault accidents while pushbikes are more at risk from other traffic - in both cases especially in inexperienced hands.

bryanm

I see significantly more prats on motorbikes than on bicycles - they're more vulnerable due to their own stupidity. A6, Matlock on any sunny weekend. They're complete dickheads with little or no repect for anyone else.

Gambatte

dangerousjules wrote:

wizz past me when they illegally use the cycle lanes.

A lot of towns have now made it legal for motorbikes to use the bus/cycle lanes.

Sheffield did it last year

domtyler

You see far far far more dick heads on motorbikes that you do on cycles. That is mainly due to the excess of power and speed available to young testosteroned up muppets with two weeks experience.

I have been overtaken when out on my bike by arse holes going way over a hundred miles an hour within a couple of foot of my elbow and it is not a pleasant experience. So far this year I have seen the scene of three fatal motorbike crashes on the A11 on my way home, the latest was last night, along with countless minor incidents.
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Indica strains

Aidocp

Ive never ridden a Motorbike so I might be wrong but on the push bike when some idiot pulls out or swerve their car into my path I have time to react, I wouldn't have this time on a motorbike.

Jacomus-rides-Gen

Whilst I might be "young and testosteroned up" and in charge of a very fast motorbike, it only goes as fast as my right hand makes it.

Just to clarify - I'm not having a go at anyone here, just in general. People see me prior to getting on the bike / just after getting off (i.e. when I'm not in my helmet) and assume I'm some kind of death-tempting, baby killing, irresponsible maniac, mainly because I am young, and look very young.

I ride a 1999 RVF-400 because 1) I love it 2) It can be very very fast when I take it to a track 3) I love skinny bikes and can no way afford to maintain a Ducati!

Basically what I'm getting at is that just because I have a fast bike doesn't mean I ride like an idiot. I've taken my advanced riding tuition, taught by police motorcyclists, and my head rather than my penis controls the way I ride.

Idiots will ride / drive like idiots whatever you put them in. Be it a vaux-dull nova or an R1.

Teuchter

domtyler wrote:

You see far far far more dick heads on motorbikes that you do on cycles. That is mainly due to the excess of power and speed available to young testosteroned up muppets with two weeks experience.

But can you judge all motorcyclists by the actions of a few idiots? I see that as no different from cyclists being judged by the actions of a few dangerous central London couriers.

I was thinking about this more on the way in today (on my bicycle). The reason I feel more vulnerable on a bicycle than on a motorbike is largely due to traffic coming from behind me. The only way of controlling what they do is by my positioning on the road - in a hope that taking an assertive position will force them to slow down and not try a dangerous overtake. This doesn't stop them from trying however, or irately sitting a foot off my back tyre trying to intimidate me into getting out of their way.

When I ride my motorbike, the issue is more one of hazards in front of me approaching at higher speeds. I am a slightly more conspicuous target than a bicycle (bulk of the bike, headlight on even in daylight, etc) though that is countered by me approaching hazards (like side roads) more quickly. I have been knocked off a motorbike by someone pulling out from a side road once but I'd say that isn't bad in 15 years and about 150,000 miles of motorcycling. (Touch wood) I have never been hospitalised as a result of an accident in any mode of transport.

I started motorcycling when I was at university having little cash had to ride a cheap (and relatively slow) bike. I made plenty of mistakes then that I know had I made them on a faster bike, I would undoubtedly have been seriously hurt or killed. On a slower bike I walked away with cuts and bruises.

I learned from that experience and consider myself to be a safe rider, even when I'm "going for it". The idiots you referred to (gross generalisation comng up) are very often recreational riders who dust off their machines for a few sunny weekends a year and try to emulate their track racing heroes. Inevitably they don't have the experience gained from regular riding to allow them to do this safely. The road isn't a race track and it's telling that many professional racing motorcyclists wouldn't go anywhere near the road as they consider it too dangerous.

I have to agree that overall, motorbikes are more dangerous than bicycles but feel that experience, skill and self control balance this in favour of motorbikes.

Sorry for rambling on a bit there but motorbikes are a passion of mine and I get as annoyed with some of the idiots on them as anyone else! I guess the point I'm trying to make is don't tar us all with the same brush!

Eurostar

As a former motorcycle courier I feel safer crossing London on a motorbike than on a bicycle, because other road users give you more room, partly because of the exhaust noise and the headlight, and partly because nobody gives a damn about cyclists. We just get pushed around. On my motorbike, I rule! On a pushbike I'm on the defensive the whole time. Yes, I try to take the primary position but it doesn't always get you very far. In my experience you have far more accidents on a pushbike, and in my case the injuries have been worse, with two trips to casualty. I've had loads of motorbike accidents, but full leathers with body armour have stopped me getting anything worse than bruising.

BentMikey

Yet riding a motorcycle is nearly four times more dangerous than riding a bicycle, in terms of your chances of dying.

Jacomus-rides-Gen

Yes, but those ROSPA stats take no account of what kind of rider you are do they, they are simply deaths per x number of people.

They don't take account of rider behaviour and safety equipment - I would say that my chances of being killed on my motorbike are significantly lower than the guy who lives a few doors down from me and thinks he is Valentino Rossi.

BentMikey

I could say the same for my cycling, but neither would be relevant, because this topic is about which is more dangerous in general. It also wouldn't work because if you're a careful motorcyclist, then you'll likely be a careful cyclist too, and leave the relative danger the same.

Jacomus-rides-Gen

By BentMikey
...It also wouldn't work because if you're a careful motorcyclist, then you'll likely be a careful cyclist too, and leave the relative danger the same.

Aha! Thats something I hadn't thought about Mikey :P

BentMikey

I love motorbikes too, only I don't get to ride any more. I've had some truely epic motorcycling tours around Zimbabwe and South Africa, wonderful experiences!

Eurostar

One big difference between cycling and motorcycling is that in the former your safety is largely out of your hands - the bad accidents are usually caused by other people. But a lot of motorcycle accidents are self-inflicted, in that even when they are caused by others the motorcyclist can avoid them if he raises his game. You just have to invest time and money in advanced training. This is why I feel safer on my motorbike - if I ride in London for a whole day, it's almost certain that somebody else will pull out in front of me by mistake, but I anticipate it, and I've also had a lot of practice at emergency stops in the wet and the dry. If I cycle in London all day people will deliberately cut me up - and the only way I can avoid that is not to go out.

In other words, don't be misled by the Rospa numbers - as a motorcyclist you can skew them in your favour, with training. There's no need to be the 'average' in the statistics. On a bicycle you can concentrate as hard as you like but people will still take you out.

BentMikey

Not just RoSPA but PACTS also:

http://www.pacts.org.uk/policy/briefing ... ics_uk.htm

And whilst there may be a bias towards self-inflicted accidents on PTWs, they are still largely subject to the same sort of situations that pedal cycles are, so I don't hold with your line of reasoning. As a cyclist, with training, you can skew safety in your favour too, which negates your argument.

jbindman

im with bentmikey on this- the personal/self-control factors are the same on bike and motorbike, but on a motorbike you have the additional problem of being able to generate a lot of momentum even in relatively controlled riding, which will have to be dissipated in an accident, sometimes through your cervical vertebrae.....

i don't really buy the idea that drivers are out to get cycles any more than motorbikes- accident scenarios involving other road users are similar for both, but motorbikes have a whole set of other ones resulting from their own speed/acceleration/weight.

the only slight difference might be protective gear- I have had 3 lots of road rash recently which would have been avoided altogether in leathers- but that sort of accident is too minor to worry about anyway.

Eurostar

I think you're both overlooking the aggression of many drivers, which manifests itself in 'school bully' behaviour. Might is right. Car drivers bully cyclists. But, in my experience, motorcyclists can - and do - bully car drivers. I'm generalising, but when fighting for road space, road users make snap judgements about each other, and the ones who appear weak get squeezed. A lot of car drivers feel intimidated by motorcyclists, especially if they appear to fit the 'hairy biker' stereotype.

This pecking order is reflected in the type of accidents one has. Car drivers deliberately pull out in front of me when I'm cycling. They don't do it when I'm on a motorcycle.

BentMikey

It's very rare that a car driver will be so psycopathic as to purposefully cause a cyclist crash, yet it's far more common for a motorcyclist to think "I'm safe because I've got the power to get out of trouble", except most seem on either full throttle or full brake, and never anything in between. I've done a lot more motorcycling than you might give me credit for.

Oh, I forgot to mention that the only intentional crash I've seen so far was a motorist who knocked off a motorcyclist on the Euston Road some years ago. I went to court as a witness for that. And I also witnessed a car pull out in front of a motorcyclist last week, causing a t-bone, and gave in my witness details. Your argument really doesn't hold any water.

As for the fear of bikers vs the fear of cyclists, us lycra louts are pretty scary too. We read a lot about terrified motorists jumping reds to get away, or winding up all their windows in fear of the angry cyclist.

rustychisel

Since the question was 'vulnerable' the answer has to be 'cyclists'

If the question was 'dangerous' then undoubtedly the answer is 'motorbike'.

Since my stepson is currenttly in hospital with a broken shoulder, collar bone, ankle, etc from being knocked off his motorbike 2 weeks ago, you can guess this has been the subject of some thought recently.

Jacomus-rides-Gen

Rusty - three weeks ago one of my clubmates crashed when he hit a diesel slick. He is currently in hospital with broken clavicle, 4 broken ribs, broken elbow and significant road rash.

About the months ago I crashed and broke my clavicle, and gave myself a bone bruise to my left elbow that is still sore if I lean on it too hard now.

Cycling can be just as bad as motorbiking in terms of injury, it is just very fortunate that cyclists do not suffer as many, or as many serious accidents as bikers (of which I am one too!)

rustychisel

J R G , I commiserate, having also broken bones in cycling 'offs'

It's mostly a matter of mass and kinetic energy though; most motorcycle accidents will take place at greater velocity and greater closing speeds (fact, and the conclusion is inescapable). Add in the mass of a motorbike ricocheting around an 'accident' scene, or worse still, the bastard thing landing on you, as one person has already pointed out, and you have the possibility for some real bloodshed. I'm not trivialising the point though, the original question seemed to require a factual answer.

4 weeks, hope you're well on the way to recovery, BTW

BentMikey

rustychisel wrote:

Since the question was 'vulnerable' the answer has to be 'cyclists'

If the question was 'dangerous' then undoubtedly the answer is 'motorbike'.
.

No, you're still more vulnerable on a motorcycle, because of your higher relative speed. Being at a higher speed leaves you more vulnerable to anything that might cause you to lose that speed quickly enough for injury to occur.

Eurostar

Let's get back to the stats. They say the average motorcyclist is 4 times more likely to die than the average cyclist. Is this measured in number of deaths per mile travelled?

What if the survey was restricted to a skilled group of motorcyclists, e.g. traffic police on motorcycles? I don't know whether you can find any data, but I would expect the average one to have a much, much lower fatal accident rate - at least 10 times safer than the average motorcyclist.

BentMikey

What if the survey was restricted to a skilled group of cyclists, e.g. bikeability instructors on bicycles? I don't know whether you can find any data, but I would expect the average one to have a much, much lower fatal accident rate - at least 10 times safer than the average cyclist.

Get my point?

Eurostar

I knew you'd say that.

Next we need to look at the most common types of fatal accident. Do you have the data for motorcycles and bicycles?