parking on "private" land
Comments
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formerlyknownasbonj wrote:
No. I dont' think it's a particularly invokeable law, just a theoretical one - if that.Random Vince wrote:madmole wrote:Since NERC 2006 bill it is an offence to drive more than 15 metres off the public highway or vehicular right or way, regardless of if its public or private in a motor vehicle (Blame the Ramblers Assoc for that one)
so its illegal for me to visit my friends, the driveway goes for 10 meters, its another 10 meters beyond that accross the yard and then 20 meters further to get to and from the barn where she keeps her cars and we often drive randomly round thier land in a landrover,
is this illegal then?
Methinks that the point was lost in the original sentence!
A driveway is a right of way, and will be designated as such, and a yard is a yard......
(Unless it is simply an illegal installation - which is more to with building regulations than traffic)
Neither actconstitutes leaving a vehicular right of way so the argument is totally pointless!<b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
He that buys flesh buys many bones.
He that buys eggs buys many shells,
But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
(Unattributed Trad.)0 -
so its illegal for me to visit my friends, the driveway goes for 10 meters, its another 10 meters beyond that accross the yard and then 20 meters further to get to and from the barn where she keeps her cars and we often drive randomly round thier land in a landrover,
is this illegal then?[/quote]
Presumably you have your friend's permission to be driving there, so no.0 -
owaingibby wrote:I think it'll be safe to park there for the time being, they dont have any singage up saying you cannot park there,
In the absence of any sign indicating that the land is a public car park (local councils usually do put up such signs) there are no grounds for assuming it is one.
Jon0 -
The parking part is largely irrelevant. If there is no right of way for motor vehicles on that land then you are breaking the law by driving onto it. Not to mention the possibility of trespass.
The argument that there should be signs prohibiting parking is ridiculous. By that logic you can do anything anywhere unless there is a sign prohibiting it. Would you like to see signs littering the countryside prohibiting parking, or anything else for that matter? I assume there is no sign in your garden prohibiting parking. If so how would you react if you came home one day to find my ratty old Pug parked on your lawn?
A little bit of advice I was given by an RoW officer applies pretty well in this case. "If you can find no evidence of a right of way then assume none exists." By the same token if there isn't a sign saying "Public Car Park" then you can probably assume that it isn't one.
Why not park somewhere legal a little further away and then cycle there."Swearing, it turns out, is big and clever" - Jarvis Cocker0 -
well, or reasonable grounds for presuming that parking's prohibited there, such as it obviously being not a car park.NorwegianBlue wrote:The argument that there should be signs prohibiting parking is ridiculous. By that logic you can do anything anywhere unless there is a sign prohibiting it.
only in car parks that the public aren't allowed to park in.NorwegianBlue wrote:Would you like to see signs littering the countryside prohibiting parking
I haven't got a garden, but if I did, I wouldn't need a sign because it would obviously be a garden. This is quite clearly a car park.NorwegianBlue wrote:I assume there is no sign in your garden prohibiting parking.
My lawn clearly isn't a car park.NorwegianBlue wrote:If so how would you react if you came home one day to find my ratty old Pug parked on your lawn?
But, the fact that there aren't signs there isn't the issue.
The issue is whether I actually believe this bint that it really is her land. If it is, and I knew that, then I would have no problem with not parking on there. But as I've explained there are certain things which lead me to believe she's claiming it to be her land when really it isn't.
Well that's what I am doing, probably only necessary though until I've been forgotten about and can just act dumb and apologise again if anyone tries to poke their nose in.NorwegianBlue wrote:A little bit of advice I was given by an RoW officer applies pretty well in this case. "If you can find no evidence of a right of way then assume none exists." By the same token if there isn't a sign saying "Public Car Park" then you can probably assume that it isn't one.
Why not park somewhere legal a little further away and then cycle there.0 -
formerlyknownasbonj wrote:
I haven't got a garden, but if I did, I wouldn't need a sign because it would obviously be a garden. This is quite clearly a car park.NorwegianBlue wrote:]I assume there is no sign in your garden prohibiting parking.
My lawn clearly isn't a car park.NorwegianBlue wrote:If so how would you react if you came home one day to find my ratty old Pug parked on your lawn?
<PEDANTIC>
But you just said you didn't have a garden. I suppose though there is no lawn that looks less like a car park than no lawn at all.
</PEDANTIC>
Final point though. You're a cyclist so why don't you cycle to the location. I really have never understood the mentality of driving somewhere to cycle. It's a bit like those odd bods who drive to the gym, use the changing room, go out jogging, use the shower and changing room and then drive home again, rather than just jogging from home.h"Swearing, it turns out, is big and clever" - Jarvis Cocker0 -
I agree to some extent with the "drive to cycle"
However tha there are many reasons to do so.
I used to train to Chichetser and meet family, we would then picnic on the "Centurion Way"
Unfortunately trains are virtually unuseable as a group now so we have no choice but to drive!<b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
He that buys flesh buys many bones.
He that buys eggs buys many shells,
But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
(Unattributed Trad.)0 -
NorwegianBlue wrote:
Final point though. You're a cyclist so why don't you cycle to the location. I really have never understood the mentality of driving somewhere to cycle. It's a bit like those odd bods who drive to the gym, use the changing room, go out jogging, use the shower and changing room and then drive home again, rather than just jogging from home.h
Because in the evenings, I've only got a few hours between finishing work and it getting dark - so the less time I spend riding TO the location, the more time I will have riding AT the location.
Wtih all due respect if you're only a roadie and not an MTBer you probably aren't likely to understand that cycling can actually be about skill aswell as fitness, hence some locations are better than others.0 -
Well I started riding off road before the UK knew what a mountain bike was. Then I rode "real" mountainbikes. Moved to front suspension and aluminiumwhen it became available. Then I decided it was all getting too easy, so I reverted to rigid steel and single speed when everybody else was moving to full suspension. Finally I went for a cross bike because I like a challenge. A couple of years ago I moved out of the city and up into the hills to be nearer the trails. So you could say I'm not just a roadie.
Moving to the country was a great move in all sorts of ways, house prices are cheaper out here so I'm living in a house that I couldn't afford in the city. Plus it has beautiful Pennine views and the nearest trail is just the over the road! I've even got a garage to keep my bikes in. What more could you want.
The only problem is that until last week it was about 7 miles to work, albeit with 700ft of climbing on the way home, now it's 18 miles and with 1000ft of climbing. Not ideal when you've only got one gear.
"Swearing, it turns out, is big and clever" - Jarvis Cocker0 -
Tourist Tony wrote:Can you shed one of your famoue pearls of wisdom before us mere uncouth swine and explain what a theoretical law is?
an example...
a london hackney cab is requird by law to carry a bail of hay in the boot. you don't see the Met enforcing that one outside the Hiltonhttp://twitter.com/mgalex
www.ogmorevalleywheelers.co.uk
10TT 24:36 25TT: 57:59 50TT: 2:08:11, 100TT: 4:30:05 12hr 204.... unfinished business0 -
formerlyknownasbonj wrote:
Because an enquiry from landregistry.gov.uk costs £3, and I've got better things to spend my money on.mangaman wrote:Sorry - I don't really understand this thread
Why don't you check whether she does own the land.
For the sake of £3? The alternative would be to simply ask the council is they own the land - if yours is anything like mine they'll take a long time coming back to you, but you should get an answer eventually if you chase.
We have a similar issue in reverse along my road. Opposite a shop car park is a private car park for residents. The shop car park has a notice suggesting only patrons can park there... the residents one has nothing. Naturally plenty of people use it for the shop (oddly even when the shop carpark is empty) and quite often we are left with nowhere to park because the shopkeeper won't let us use his. We don't have signs because it's run by one of those residents association type committies, and everyone has to agree on what's wanted... which of course no one ever does.
If I were in your boots I would avoid parking there for the time being and see if you can find out if it is a public car park. If it is, ring up the lady you spoke to before and advise her you have got confirmation and will continue to park in the space.
If it isn't, take good grace and accept that a mistake was made. There may be other reasons that she has a car park there - if it is private property she may need space for visitors to unload vans, or even horseboxes, on a relatively reular basis.0 -
IOf course if you're not parking illegally or causing an "unnecessary obstruction" (however you define that?) by parking on the road you would be better parking on the road.
The biggest potential problem you have here is that the landowner would not be commiting an offcence by blocking access to the land while your car is parked there. As long as there is no right of access for motor vehicles there is nothing to stop the landowner blocking that
The land registry search may not actually give you details of the actual owner of the land as such. As often as not you'll come up against a holding company the directors of which are solicitors representing the actual owner. Unless an offence has been committed the holding company is under no obligation to tell you who the represent. There is myth that you can discover the owner of a plot of land by parking a caravan on it, then the owner has to complain to the authorities to get it moved. This will achieve nothing in the case my hypothetical case the holding company would make the application."Swearing, it turns out, is big and clever" - Jarvis Cocker0 -
Leave poor Bonj alone--he's having too much fun being irate to accept an easy solution!If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or Dick
http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=3 ... =3244&v=5K0 -
formerlyknownasbonj wrote:
No. I dont' think it's a particularly invokeable law, just a theoretical one - if that.Random Vince wrote:madmole wrote:Since NERC 2006 bill it is an offence to drive more than 15 metres off the public highway or vehicular right or way, regardless of if its public or private in a motor vehicle (Blame the Ramblers Assoc for that one)
so its illegal for me to visit my friends, the driveway goes for 10 meters, its another 10 meters beyond that accross the yard and then 20 meters further to get to and from the barn where she keeps her cars and we often drive randomly round thier land in a landrover,
is this illegal then?
Not a theoretical law, one that is & has been enforced, particularly when off road bikes 7 vehicles use land to which they shouldn't have access eg yoofs on scrambler bikes tearing up a local park. vehicle can be siezed & crushed. The NERC act came into act last year (may time??) and redefined what routes have vehicluar acces & those that do not.
if the land is private, and you have permission to be on it, then fine, no amount of rambelrs Assoc wingeing is going to change the fact that you may be driving a footpath, so long as the owners of the land allow it.0 -
Check with the council about ownership of the car park and the road.
How do you know it is a public road?
Check with the rights of way group about both road (if it's not public) and car park. You may discover it meets the criteria to be come a right of way to which motorised vehicles are allowed access.Do Nellyphants count?
Commuter: FCN 9
Cheapo Roadie: FCN 5
Off Road: FCN 11
+1 when I don't get round to shaving for x days0 -
'cos it's got an official council road sign.nwallace wrote:Check with the council about ownership of the car park and the road.
How do you know it is a public road?0 -
formerlyknownasbonj wrote:
'cos it's got an official council road sign.nwallace wrote:Check with the council about ownership of the car park and the road.
How do you know it is a public road?
What sort of official council road sign?
A fingerpost or other arrow pointing you up it would suggest that you have a right to use it to get to that destination.
If its a street name sign then it could still be an unadopted road (that's what they are called here) which would mean it was private.
Most normal road signs can easily appear on a private road either because that's what the owner has decided to put up or because the council have given them instructions on what is required for their road to be allowed to connect to the public highway. (My read of the roads (Scotland) act showed that councils can place requirements on the first few meters of a "private" road which would allow resurfacing and placement of stop signs etc at the road owners expense. IF the same applies in England this could be all the signs indicate)
If it says Property of ..... Council then its pretty obvious.Do Nellyphants count?
Commuter: FCN 9
Cheapo Roadie: FCN 5
Off Road: FCN 11
+1 when I don't get round to shaving for x days0 -
Why not park by the side of the road?Rich0
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If she owns the land and you park on it your commiting a trespass, but so what! Trespass is a civil offence and not a criminal one. To get you to remove your car she would have to go to court and obtain an order. All of which could cost her in terms of time and money. Carry on parking there and enjoy using the land. Tell the old bag on the horse to bugger off as well
Beer, the reason my ambitions have not become my achievements0 -
AndyGates wrote:So she owns it, you asked her and she said no.
As I understand it, you'd now be committing deliberate trespass if you parked there. You'd certainly be being rude.
Yes - you can no longer claim ignorance. I'd stop parking there. With hindsight you shouldn't have asked!'Happiness serves hardly any other purpose than to make unhappiness possible' Marcel Proust.0 -
beckenham wrote:If she owns the land and you park on it your commiting a trespass, but so what! Trespass is a civil offence and not a criminal one. To get you to remove your car she would have to go to court and obtain an order. All of which could cost her in terms of time and money. Carry on parking there and enjoy using the land. Tell the old bag on the horse to bugger off as well
With attitudes like that it's no wonder some folk have an irrational hatred of cyclists :roll:0 -
I think that should be "a rational hate of motorists".If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or Dick
http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=3 ... =3244&v=5K0 -
Jonathan Mcp wrote:formerlyknownasbonj wrote:Random Vince wrote:
if the land is private, and you have permission to be on it, then fine, no amount of rambelrs Assoc wingeing is going to change the fact that you may be driving a footpath, so long as the owners of the land allow it.
yup, its good fun is that one.My signature was stolen by a moose
that will be all
trying to get GT James banned since tuesday0 -
One that's exactly the same in style, material, font, and in every other way to every other official council road sign on every public street.nwallace wrote:What sort of official council road sign?
The council wouldn't put up an official road sign if it was a private road. In fact I don't think there would even be a road if it was private land. The issue is not whether the road itself is public or not, the issue is whether car park at the end of it is public.nwallace wrote:A fingerpost or other arrow pointing you up it would suggest that you have a right to use it to get to that destination.
If its a street name sign then it could still be an unadopted road (that's what they are called here) which would mean it was private.
(and I still can't believe this thread is still going on...after all this time)0 -
Well, I can. i didn't give my name when I phoned up.passout wrote:AndyGates wrote:So she owns it, you asked her and she said no.
As I understand it, you'd now be committing deliberate trespass if you parked there. You'd certainly be being rude.
Yes - you can no longer claim ignorance. I'd stop parking there. With hindsight you shouldn't have asked!0 -
excellent answer!beckenham wrote:If she owns the land and you park on it your commiting a trespass, but so what! Trespass is a civil offence and not a criminal one. To get you to remove your car she would have to go to court and obtain an order. All of which could cost her in terms of time and money. Carry on parking there and enjoy using the land. Tell the old bag on the horse to bugger off as well0 -
formerlyknownasbonj wrote:
Well, I can. i didn't give my name when I phoned up.passout wrote:AndyGates wrote:So she owns it, you asked her and she said no.
As I understand it, you'd now be committing deliberate trespass if you parked there. You'd certainly be being rude.
Yes - you can no longer claim ignorance. I'd stop parking there. With hindsight you shouldn't have asked!
Ignorance isn't a valid defence in English law...There is no secret ingredient...0
