The penalty for criticising the BNP

Patrick Stevens

Nick Bourne the Tory Leader in the Welsh Assemby is under investigation by the Standards Commissioner who has received 180 complaints following his criticising the BNP, who he said exists to spread bigotry.

The Commissioner has asked Nick Bourne to withdraw his comment but he has refused to do so and the investigation continues.

Things have come to a pretty pass if we're losing the right to describe the BNP as a bunch of feral, neo-Nazi, knuckledragging thugs.

Richrd2205

For about the first time, I'm in complete agreement with you, Patrick.
Maybe the original comment was wrong: they also exist to make fascism acceptable...
Either way, they're a stain on the country & it's shameful that they have any seats anywhere.

UH DH

If you publicly criticise the BNP, they smash your windows and burn crosses on your lawn while wearing all white costumes.

It happened to my second cousin twice removeds mothers sisters daughters dog.

piedwagtail91

free speech has gone, you should be able to pass reasonable comment on anyone or any group but can't now.
on a similar theme, what about the magistrate under investigation for refusing to hear the case of someone he couldn't see. i e a muslim woman covered from head to toe. he was using common sense as it could have been anyone. it's pathetic.

cpsimon

The BNP should be allowed to say what it likes. If you agree with what the BNP says, vote it into power. If you don't agree with what it says, don't vote fot it. What's the problem? Meanwhile the BNP is entitled to as much protection against those who seek to defame it as any other political party - unless of course you are one of those who thinks that certain sections of the population need to be protected from the political views of others in the population.

redcogs

i assume from your stout defence that you a registered member of the BNP?

What is your Party policy towards the BBC? Will it be de-nationalised when you win office?

What are your intentions for its major 'liberal' journos like Paxman, Wark, Humphries et al? Will they be entitled to redundo pay outs before being shipped to a remote 'holiday' camp?

Ravenbait

cpsimon wrote:

The BNP should be allowed to say what it likes.

In that case we should all be permitted to describe them as neo-fascist, knuckle-dragging thugs and Mr Bourne's comment seems fairly mild.

Sam

naz-t

they exist regardless of your personal views, some of us would like to think as above that there are still some choices left to us be made in this country. bigotry is just the other side of the coin surely.
a good debate looks at both sides of the arguement and is not about following Political correctness like sheep.
i for one am glad some one is strong enough to speak out in a direction that for some reason people seem not to want to go in, however i do not condon any violence or intimidation that may surround certain followers of the BNP party.

we are ALL entitled to our views, imposing them on others is different

Ravenbait

And therein lies the rub.

Because if the BNP were to get in they would impose their views on everyone, including those who don't agree with them.

Sam

spen666

Ravenbait wrote:

And therein lies the rub.

Because if the BNP were to get in they would impose their views on everyone, including those who don't agree with them.

Sam

unlike other parties eh?

I mean we are all allowed to express our oppposition to say the Iraq War - by protesting in Parliament Square.... ooops sorry we're not cos Tony imposed his view on the war on us and stiffles criticism.

Ravenbait

I didn't say that the rest of them didn't do that, Spen.

But personally I don't want to live in a country that is ruled by fascist, knuckle-dragging thugs.

Anyway. Maybe Tony will get a surprise while he's being a peace ambassador to the Middle East :twisted: .

Sam

cpsimon

redcogs wrote:

i assume from your stout defence that you a registered member of the BNP?

Of course you do Redcogs. You are a socialist and given to all sorts of assumptions, all of them based on little or no evidence.

Th BNP is a political party. It should have all the rights and responsibilities that all political parties have. If you agree with what the BNP say, vote for them. If you don't agree, don't vote for them. Simple. Why do so many people who regard themselves as 'liberal' feel that they need to remove this freedom of voting choice from others? 'Liberals' won't be happy until only parties that they deem politically correct are allowed to stand in elections - this situation exists in places like China and Cuba, and was very popular in eastern Europe until recently. 'Liberals' thoroughly approve of such systems, as evidenced by their extreme reluctance to criticise them, and a gullible desire to believe fairy tales of the wonders they achieve.

Ratkilla

I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

Voltaire, (Attributed)

redcogs

As you suggest simoncp, i have no evidence whatsoever that you carry BNP membership, which is why, (you may not have noticed) there was a question mark at the end of my first sentence. You are at liberty to defend the fascists if you so wish, if you did, i might feel some disappointment, but hey ' its a free country' isn't it?

Of course, you could easily dispel any lingering doubts that may or may not exist about your affiliation (or otherwise) by simply stating an answer - which i would accept at once.

For my part, i hold no Party cards, simply a democratic equalitarian collectivist. Its not that hard being straightforward is it?

BTW, will Paxo and Wark and Humphries, and any other pinko types employed by the BBC be whisked away for a 'holiday' when the BNP capture the state?

Ratkilla

The BNP aren't going to get in.
If you look at France for example Front Nationale average about 10% of the vote. While the BNP don't even get a look in in Scotland.
What I'm saying here is that the majority of the electorate in any country are , in fact, normal,rational people who would never vote for an extremist party of any colour.
Therefore I don't see that voters in England would be any different overall.

Patrick Stevens

Here's the link :

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news ... _page.html

If the complaint is fully upheld, then Nick Bourne can be excluded from the Welsh Assembly which will establish an interesting benchmark for the penalty to be imposed on anyone guilty of criticising the BNP.

Yorkshireman

That was a bit of a `let down` Patrick ... Looks like the standard rough and tumble of of Politics from here .

Patrick Stevens

Yorkshireman wrote:

That was a bit of a `let down` Patrick ... Looks like the standard rough and tumble of of Politics from here .

I expected a terse comment from the Standards Commissioner to say that he was not going to waste time on such a spurious set of complaints. However, we now have a very po faced investigation.

Yorkshireman

Patrick Stevens wrote:

Yorkshireman wrote:

That was a bit of a `let down` Patrick ... Looks like the standard rough and tumble of of Politics from here .

I expected a terse comment from the Standards Commissioner to say that he was not going to waste time on such a spurious set of complaints. However, we now have a very po faced investigation.

Parts of Wales seem (to me) to be pretty good at `po faceing` .

naz-t

ratkilla, no offence mate but the uk is not just england!

cpsimon

redcogs wrote:

As you suggest simoncp, i have no evidence whatsoever that you carry BNP membership, which is why, (you may not have noticed) there was a question mark at the end of my first sentence....


BTW, will Paxo and Wark and Humphries, and any other pinko types employed by the BBC be whisked away for a 'holiday' when the BNP capture the state?

I did notice the question mark, but the sentence was not a question. It was a statement. Putting a question mark at the end doesn't make a statement a question.

When I run the country, the BBC will be free to do exactly as it likes, including the freedom to raise its own revenue by whatever normal method it chooses because I'd scrap the tax on TV usage that the government uses to fund the BBC. The BBC would be properly free and independent, and we'd all be free of it unless we chose to subscribe. Paxo and his pals would just have to get used to being paid by willing customers.

redcogs

i understand your reluctance to reveal your political affiliation simoncp. Embarrassment can produce an excruciating emotional response. Even so, what have you to lose from a little more openness?

Don't people who carry a Party allegiance win more respect for their organisation if they don't conceal it?

Ratkilla

NAZ! Neither is France! I was trying to summarise, man! 06:49 was a BIT early to enter into a deep political discourse hence why I chose France and Scotland and mentioned England.

redrobbo

Does Mr Bourne not understand that the BNP are decent, upstanding members of the community and of course not

a “nasty, mean, distasteful and grubby bunch of sub-human flotsam and jetsam”

;

they just happen to hold different opinions to his? e.g.

Phil Edwards, a spokesman for the BNP, said: “I think he should be put in the stocks, and tarred and feathered and driven out of town.”

ddraver

SimonCP should be allowed to defend the BNP...but the Tory Leader in wales should also be able to say what he likes in response

boring are nt I?!

Tourist Tony

Basically, yes, that's true democracy.
I remember the debates at college about "no platform for fascism". I always argued that the best way to deal with such dross is to put them up on a public forum and let them get laughed at.
Imagine Hitler speaking today....."Nice 'tache mate! I know a good Leather Club down the road if you're into bears!"

Big n Daft

Any one wanting to be a politician should automatically be disbarred from being one.

All little piggy's in the trough. Far more interested in keeping the status quo and feathering their nests a little more than dealing with the real issues that are dragging this country down.

Lack of investment, shoddy public services, private companies using public infrastructure who get away time and time again at minimising service while maximising profits, mass uncontrolled immigration, rising crime, a whole generation of violent, feral, youth's with nothing to aim for, nothing to behave for and a welfare system that will encourage nothing but lethargy and apathy.

Silence gives consent.
-- Canon Law

Patrick Stevens

Tourist Tony wrote:

Basically, yes, that's true democracy.
I remember the debates at college about "no platform for fascism". I always argued that the best way to deal with such dross is to put them up on a public forum and let them get laughed at.
Imagine Hitler speaking today....."Nice 'tache mate! I know a good Leather Club down the road if you're into bears!"

I agree - if you let anyone from the BNP come up with anything other than a carefully prepared sound bite, it rapidly becomes clear what a bunch of knuckle dragging thugs they really are.

alecstilleyedye

i think the rise of the bnp (such as it is) is in part attibutable to the lack of a strong, traditional Conservative party. the tories' eagernes to occupy the middle ground that new labour have taken a morgage out on has marginalised the more hard core tory voters who were on the right of the political spectrum.

fortunately, we didn't want that from the tories in '97, and the bnp won't get very far as a single issue party with it either.

i dislike the bnp, but i think the issue is that of opinion vs incitement. they have the right to say "we don't think asians should live in this country", but not the right to incite hatred. it's a fine line isn't it?

Shadowduck

"If we do not believe in freedom of speech for those we despise we do not believe in it at all." ~Noam Chomsky

As the man said, the BNP have all the rights of any other political party. They're a symptom, not a cause.

Disclaimer: Before redcogs marks me down as a neo-nazi, I'm not very political but probably lean more towards the left than the right.

Big n Daft

That's the whole problem isn't it.

If you see the reasons behind the BNP and do not believe in stifling their right as a legitimate political party to campaign and address the issues they think matter to people, you are automatically labelled as a member or a sympathiser, whether or not you agree with them.

Much like the well worn tactic of suppressing any debate on immigration by using the 'your a racist' gambit.

Thing is, by suppressing any debate or reason in these types of debates, you prove the very points that some use to justify their view.

Free speech within the laws of the country, (for example, not incitement to hatred or violence) should apply to everyone.

Labelling a whole group of people as neo-nazis because they agree with certain policies of a political party is no debate, it is more akin to the policies of National Socialism than a lot seem to realise.

Suppress all those who think differently by making that disagreement illegal. Orwell called that thought crime.