Lack of respect for others...

bigdawg

whys everyone so hung up on corporal punishment and schooling..??! This was just a part of the problem.

Personally my parents taught me from an early what manners are, how to respect others and where I live and that if I misbehaved id get punished. Today it seems that a lot of parents expect someone else to do this for them.

I was down the beach the other day and a kid no more than 10 was playing football with his dad and a couple of other kids. He was tackled, fell over, nothing severe, just part of a game of football, he got upo and yelled ''youre a f**king p**ck...'' I was gob smacked and you know what dad did...laughed :shock: If Id have done that when I was that age I would have got the hiding from hell.

I also know quite a few techers and policemen, the teachers really depress me when they tell me of parents coming in to parents evening and asking when the school is going to start teaching manners, as litlle charlie is getting a bit mouthy at home...and when I hear stories of 12-14 years who try and start fights with the Police, cos all their mates are filming them and want to get the police in trouble, cos theyre just scum!

These kids never come up against authority. Theyre pretty much left to do what they want when they want, and this is the end result. Watch BadLads Army, ok just a tv programme but look at the reaction when they come up against unmoving authority, they break down, dont know whats hit them or what to do.

Teach them respect, what authority is and what hard work can achieve and youre on your way, but this is down to the parents who would rather sit and watch 'Stenders & Corrie than cook their kid dinner, sit down at the table and talk.

formerlyknownasbonj

ransos wrote:

Unfortunately for Bonj, he hasn't demonstrated a causal link. His logic is that because we had the cane when respect was pperceived to be higher, then bringing back the can would solve the problem. There is no reson to suspect that this is true. And in any case, many commentators have noted this supposed problem to be a recent problem, yet the cane has been banned for over 20 years. So why wasn't there a sudden upsurge in problems in 1986?

it's not just the cane, it's a whole myriad of symptoms of political correctness and 'human rights' culture which renders teachers hands tied when it comes to dealing with unruliness. The cane is just one of them.

You say why is it only recent yet the cane has been banned for over 20 years, maybe like I say it's a generational thing. We are only just starting to get through the children of children who knew they could get away with disruptiveness without being caned.

L60N

Thats true. I think you wouldnt see an instant shift in behaviours, because when the cane was banned, and for a period after; kids would still have had respect for their seniors, its a steady decline in behaviours. I know when i was younger (im 30), my school teacher kept her cane in the corner as a kind of object of fear, she couldnt use it, but we felt like "maybe she will".

I dont beleive in bashing kids, and its a very hard line to distinguish when you should punish a child, and what the best course of action should be. True its down to the parents, so what are we saying here, its not ok for a teacher to smack a naughty child but its ok for the parent to? Im just trying to get a common understanding here, ive seen some very definate No's to teachers punishing kids, but not syaing whether the parent should, just that its the job of the parents to teach thier kids respect, so tell me, how would you best do that??

Leon

bigdawg

when I was at school, in the 80's, the cane, slipper and flying board rubber (now they did really hurt!) were all used if needed.

However I think we're getting a bit sidetracked here, by the time kids get to school, aged 5, surely they should already have manners and respect instilled by their parents, if a kid has been able to get away with anything by the time hes 5 a teacher has no hope.

THe problem lies with the collapse of th family unit, all to often I hear parents saying they dont have time to cook dinner, to sit and eat with their children, when really what they;re saying is Soaps start in five minutes turkey twizzlers for you and shut up while Im watching telly.

Bringing up kids is bloody hard work and im sorry if this offends some people but there are a lot of parents who are too damn lazy to be bothered to do it.

L60N

Yeah, i read somewhere that a persons traits & personality are mostly formed by the time he/she is 4yrs of age, things such as trust, right/wrong, etc.

So a solid first few years is a good base to start from i pressume?

bigdawg

its essential, its where the majority of us learn the things that stay with us for the rest of our lives...

passout

Respect for whom? Our elders, our betters, the police? Society is dead, class is less important than it ever has been, the C of E has had it, people don't trust politicians or the police. Times have changed and of course there are problems that need sorting eg petty crime, binge drinking. However reactionary and out of date suggestions, which typically come up, are pants and an excuse to rant. But how can you suggest solutions without really knowing what the problem is? I mean the British have always been surly towards their social betters and the state. Crime in victorian England, when respect was talked about alot, was terrible - much worse than today. Personally I meet nice people of all ages all the time. So things probably haven't got worse - so I repeat what is the problem? And be specific.

PS You earn respect.

Kaipaith

passout wrote:

PS You earn respect.

Indeed you do.

Whenever I hear people talking about how society has gone to the dogs, I have to wonder if it really has, or whether this is only a perception. Maybe I'm lucky or naive, but I've never been mugged, stabbed, shot, had my house burgled or my car broken into. I've not had a bike stolen or my online bank account fraudulently accessed.

While I live in a predominantly white neighbourhood, I work with people from a range of ethnic and religious backgrounds. We all get on as well with each other as most people do.

The kids in my road are a little noisy and can be boisterous, but that's kids for you. Yes they swear... but then I've been known to do that on occasion too, and I wouldn't want to be a hypocrite.

I lost my wallet on the street once. Someone found it and returned it to me in person, and oddly enough nothing was missing.

In truth, I think people worry. It's what we do, and it's probably an evolutionary trait to keep us safe. I remember back in the early nineties there was a bomb scare in my local city. The shopping centre was evacuated and there was a fairly decent police and fire service presence.

It didn't even make the local news - nowadays it would probably hit the national.

Yet strangely one of my neighbours openly confessed how nervous the attempted attacks in Glasgow make him feel. The entire world's problems have become a microcosm, and rather than examine the relative benefits of our immediate area he sees worldwide issues directly affecting him, even if they never could.

BigWomble

One problem, which hasn't been mentioned, is teacher selection. The standard route into teaching is a degree plus a PGCE.

I don't see that this is a good thing. Firstly, just because someone is intelligent enough to get a degree doesn't mean they're going to be good at getting information across. Nor does it mean that they will be able to keep discipline in class. One of the most intelligent teachers at my old grammar school was incapable of keeping discipline, and had to get another teacher to help him.

They would be better off hiring teachers with 'A'-levels, & with yoof leader potential. They would be closer to the children in age, in understanding, and quite possibly better at keeping discipline.

It is possible for people to be too intelligent.

penugent

bigdawg wrote:

when I was at school, in the 80's, the cane, slipper and flying board rubber (now they did really hurt!) were all used if needed.

However I think we're getting a bit sidetracked here, by the time kids get to school, aged 5, surely they should already have manners and respect instilled by their parents,.

I was at school in the 60s and 70s and came up against some brutal teachers. I accept that I always deserved any punishment that I received and I don't think it did me any harm at all. I think the teachers of today need more training and authority in the area of control.

Apart from this I firmly believe that good parenting is essential. I only have one child, a boy, for whom I took full bedtime responsibility from birth. From day one I talked to my boy during his bedtime routine and explained how the world worked and how important it was to be the best at everything he did. I controlled my son by exuding authority - I have never even contemplated striking him. My son is now almost 15 and is a perfect gentleman who is doing extremely well at school. He makes me so proud I could simply burst. Assaulting children shouldn't be needed if the parenting job is properly undertaken from day 1.

Buggi

There's nothing wrong with corporal punishment in schools or being smacked by a parent... and it's completely different from being beaten/abused as a child by a parent.

being smacked or corporal punisment does not teach children that violence is the acceptable answer to anything, being beaten and abused by your parents does, but they are two different things for this reason.

if you punish a child with corporal punishment, it is carried out in a controlled manner, not when the person is angry. and my mum told me she never once smacked us because she was "angry", she smacked us because we were naughty, and that is where the control is.

therefore, i've never related a smack or a cane at school with acceptable violence, i saw it as a punishment for being bad and it deterred me from being bad.

my brother had the cane at school. cocky little git put some kid in a wheely bin and sent him flying out of the school gates, with no concern for the bus that was coming up the road. obviously my brother thought he was home safe and dry because the school had to ask my parents to carry out the punishment (and rightly so) only he wasn't banking on my mum and dad saying yes when they realised what mortal danger he had put the kid in. which brings me to another point... it would really help if parents started to support teachers more..

and if smacking kids teaches them to be violent and it's been banned ... then how come my teaching assistant mate comes home from school with kicks and bruise marks all over her everyday and she's thinking about jacking it in (one kid actually opened up a teachers face with his fingers!). it would seem to me that the lack of physical punishment has caused a violent generation... and here's the shocking part.... they are only 5 years old! what hope for the future?

so me and my siblings were smacked as kids, and my brother was on the receiving end of corporal punishment at least twice. none of us have turned out to be angry violent people.

dynohub

I'm another one in favour of sorting out the parents...

Garybee

For those advocating National Service spare a thought for the military before you fill it with people who will just become a massive training burden. The military has been thinned out so much by reduction in manpower while at the same time increasing it's commitments abroad that burdening in with a load of unmotivated, uneducated louts would almost certainly destroy it.

passout

If you move to a nice middle class area, with good schools ,then none of this will be a problem - sorted. Next issue...

L60N

If you move to a nice middle class area, with good schools ,then none of this will be a problem - sorted. Next issue...

If you think that then you really do have your head up your Microcosm.

I

wildmoustache

i was at school when the belt was phased out ... and ... all hell broke loose!!

actually, things were kept somewhat contained by a game called "dodgeball". basically involved kids running around the gym in gymslips/ barefeet and a a teacher absolutely blasting a mitre mouldmaster football at them as hard as possible. if you were hit, you were out. last man standing. all those who remember the mouldmaster will concur that this is one hell of a game!!

passout

L60N wrote:

If you move to a nice middle class area, with good schools ,then none of this will be a problem - sorted. Next issue...

If you think that then you really do have your head up your Microcosm.

I

I resemble that remark!

..... society is dead and we all live in 'mircocosms' anyway. We form social relationships through religious groups, family, special interest groups (eg cycling) and even on-line communities. Society (and class), as was, has changed and no longer forms the basis of much social interaction. So we pick and choose who we socialise with i.e. we select our own microcosms - this process is often referred to as post modernism.

As for 'respect', if society is dead and there are so many different groups of people out there, then it's difficult to generalise about 'society' at all. If there is less respect out there it could be that 'society' is unable to exert much (if any) influence or control. The positive side of this is that we have greater individual freedoms and can largely escape the class restrictions which bound our grandparents.

One point - the media does exert a great influence over many and should perhaps play a role in this debate.

In the end though it is the immediate 'microcosm', family, that really matters - especially to kids. It's clear that respect is something that is taught from home through a mixture of discipline & positive role-models. Perhaps this is where the problem sometimes lies and not in some wider notion of society.

Discpline in schools is just that, for schools, and doesn't necessarily effect behaviour outside school. It's parents & other family members, rather than teachers, that kids tend to see as rolemodels.

drewfromrisca

Oh I remember the mouldmaster!!!!
Nothing like a welt on your thigh with the pattern of the dimples imprinted for 10 hours...especially on a cold winters day!!!

Do any of you who have posted on the forum ever or do work with kids?

passout

I teach.

pliptrot

Oh God, here I go again....

All the things mooteed are sticks. We need carrots; inclusion. Do you not think kids at school see our current obsession with celebrity and status (think of the media time devoted to footballers [not football]) and feel let down by society, with their own struggles in life utterly devalued? And what examples do we hold up from the regular workforce? Bankers and stockbrokers, people earning sums of money which -again- devalue the struggle for the rest of us?

To be a decent member of society you need to be -and feel - part of it. That means being given a sense of purpose and some self-worth. Imagine leaving school today, with inequality in society at the worst levels for 50 years, with salaries for most creeping up at levels lower than inflation, with salaries for those with inordinate exposure at the top of the tree leaping ahead by many times that.

As usual, I inject an impertinent anecdote: I'm an engineer with 15 years in the oil industry and an impressive list of qualifications and training. I earn pretty much what most in the city of London (think: CEO of Northern Rock to gauge my view of the finance industry) wouldn't accept as a bonus, and wonder what I did wrong. How do you think my nephew, who has yet to land a job, who has yet to buy a house, thinks, reading every day in the newspaper about just how much today's celebrities enjoy?

And you wonder about respect?