Lack of respect for others...

andyoxon

In light of : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6274736.stm is there much that can be done...

Thought a poll maybe worth a shot ...

Andy

Red Lemon

Is it overly cynical of me to think that this country is more or less beyond hope in that respect?

Edit: Actually, a good start would be to eradicate the phrase "human rights" from the vernacular and replace it with "human responsibilities".

Ticaboy

I see no issues with corporal punishment. In my school days, the thought of getting a good hiding with a cane or slipper was enough to make sure I didn't behave like the kids of today do. I had one occasion where I actually received it, and it was done in front of the class. The embarrassment was more than the actual pain.

The idea that kids today can get in teachers' and other adults' faces and quote the law and their rights and know they can essentially hit you and you can't strike back is absurd. No wonder society is out of control with violence, stabbings, gangs etc. National service would be a great idea too.

ransos

Ah yes, directing violence towards a minor in order to teach them that violence is wrong. Good one.

L60N

Ransos.

Its simple cause and effect: Kids thesedays have no idea of the pain and hurt they can cause people, they are kids afterall, its only when they grow up and look back they may feel shame.

So whats wrong with the prospect of a smack? No long term damage, just a reminder, if you misbehave, you will receive a punishment. IT NEVER DID ME ANY HARM!!!!!!

I fcuking hate this nanny state.

ransos

That's balls and you know it. Corporal punishment has been banned in schools for well over 20 years. Yet was there a sudden, massive rise in antisocial behaviour when the ban was introduced? Of course not. "Never did me any harm" is the refuge of the bully.

Squaggles

I don't know about 3 strikes but we definitely need to get a bit of discipline back into schools .

L60N

Im not, and never have been a bully, on the contrary I loathe bullying in any form.

Bullying by definition is an unprovoked attack.

What im talking about is discipline.

I was the class clown at school, and was at the thick end of a punishment on more than one occasion, Didnt stop me being an arse but curbed it to a large extent. And beleive me i NEVER felt that i didnt deserve it and in time realised the notion of consequence, which is totally irrelevant in todays society. Such a pity.

Leon

Drfabulous0

I was beaten by my parents as a child, It was acceptable back then but nowadays it would be considered child abuse. Did it teach me respect? Hell No, it taught me that violence was an acceptable and effective way to exert control over another person. Only years of real life experience and jail have taught me otherwise.

The only way I know to be treated with respect is to respect others in turn. It is wrong to suggest that the young are disrespectful, it is common throughout all age groups. But IMO it is the job of parents and not schools to teach manners to kids.

ransos

Corporal punishment ban was brought in when I was at school. There was no sudden disresepct for our teachers, nor were we any less worried about getting on the wrong side of them. Frankly many would have preferred corporal punishment to sitting in detention. Whatever malaise we currently have in society, it will not be solved by adults hitting children.

Canrider

"But IMO it is the job of parents and not schools to teach manners to kids."

Hear hear. I voted 'There is another option...', being precisely that one. Not parenting classes, just a society-wide recognition that certain behaviours are unacceptable.

ransos

Canrider wrote:

"But IMO it is the job of parents and not schools to teach manners to kids."

Hear hear. I voted 'There is another option...', being precisely that one. Not parenting classes, just a society-wide recognition that certain behaviours are unacceptable.

And now we get to the heart of it. For what it's worth, I think that the real problem in schools is that parents almost encourage their kids to disrespect their teachers. When I was a kid, a detention note going home would have (and did) landed me in really hot water with my folks, now parents just tell their kids that they don't have to do what the teachers say.

Ratkilla

I think that human rights are a vital and important part of society and that they are enshrined in law is equally as important.

What is lacking is the joined up thinking where with rights come responsibilities ie that if an individual claims a right then equally they must also claim a responsibility not to infringe another persons' rights at the same time. In other words respect other peoples' rights.
This is essential for the ethos of 'human rights' to actually work.
Unfortunately the concept wasn't thought through properly and the right=responsbility part appears to be non existent in the legislation.
Therefore, it looks to have become a 'Charter for the Selfish' to exploit for their own ends and ironically diminishes the rights of the majority.

As for corporal punishment. It didn't work for me. Being a recipient of the belt on numerous occasions in no way made me change my attitude. After all how can one respect an adult who smacks a 12 year old on the hands with a large piece of leather merely for farting in class?! This is where the absurdity exists.

I don't agree that society is out of control. Society has never really been under control.
If you look at the past 100 years, say, there have been periods of relative 'stabilty' and 'instabilty' it has never been constantly or consistently one or the other.
Society is organic and constantly evolves and changes. At this moment it appears that we are in a period of relative instability. Given time this will change as it always has done.
The reason why society has not totally broken down is because as humans collectively and individually we have an absolute instinct and desire to survive.

As we all know respect has to be earned. It is also a reciprocal 'contract' between the individual and 'authority' and can't be delivered on demand.

Stream of consciousness over.

Ticaboy

ransos wrote:

Ah yes, directing violence towards a minor in order to teach them that violence is wrong. Good one.

You're brilliant.
So, in your infinate wisdom, why is it that today there is so much anti-social behaviour from children compared to 20 years ago (oh, coincidentally, when corporal punishment was around)?

Canrider

There's always been anti-social behaviour from children and young adults. The misty-eyed telescoping of the past into a mythical 'golden era' serves to conceal it.

ransos

Ticaboy wrote:

ransos wrote:

Ah yes, directing violence towards a minor in order to teach them that violence is wrong. Good one.

You're brilliant.
So, in your infinate wisdom, why is it that today there is so much anti-social behaviour from children compared to 20 years ago (oh, coincidentally, when corporal punishment was around)?

Corporal punishment in state schools was banned in 1986, which I make 21 years ago. So to answer your question, I do not know why there is more bad behaviour now than 20 years ago, but it's not because of banning corporal punishment. I suspect it's more to do with parents' changing attitudes towards teachers, which I stated in an earlier post, had you bothered to read it.

andyoxon

Canrider wrote:

"But IMO it is the job of parents and not schools to teach manners to kids."

Hear hear. I voted 'There is another option...', being precisely that one. Not parenting classes, just a society-wide recognition that certain behaviours are unacceptable.

OK, but how will society come to recognise this, by what means? To a large extent people need help to change there attitudes, and behaviour do they not?

Our two girls are at primary school and are pretty well behaved by all accounts, when they get to secondary school (state) - I hope that there are better more effective mechanisms to deal with unruly children - disruptive influences... Discipline is key, and the means to enforce this at the disposal of teachers has to have 'teeth'...IMO. Bad behavior, language, bullying should be stamped on... But , it is a complex situation...and little things can help - like good firm but fair leadership, building self-respect in the school, and having a vision for the children.

Ratkilla

'So, in your infinate wisdom ... ' Ticaboy

So what's the story here Ticaboy? Were you too busy getting slapped about by your teacher to learn how to spell properly?!!

Mumping and moaning about the state of the country and he can't even use the Queen's English properly!
I ask you! In my day we'd have been beaten senseless by the headmaster, Mr Penis, for making such an elementary mistake!
Blahdeblahdeblah

christian dieu

Children seem to have more awareness of their rights than they did when I was young. We just accepted we would get a smack if we did wrong (rightly or wrongly) whereas when I say to my 14 year old "in my day you would have got a smack for that" he comes back with "what gives you the right to..."
I don't get to hear the last bit of his sentence as i have my hands around his throat by then

Ticaboy

Ratkilla wrote:

'So, in your infinate wisdom ... ' Ticaboy

So what's the story here Ticaboy? Were you too busy getting slapped about by your teacher to learn how to spell properly?!!

Mumping and moaning about the state of the country and he can't even use the Queen's English properly!
I ask you! In my day we'd have been beaten senseless by the headmaster, Mr Penis, for making such an elementary mistake!
Blahdeblahdeblah

Ratkilla,
You are some piece of work. Where the hell do you get off starting a personal assault on me on this forum? This is a place where people are allowed to give their OWN opinion, which means there is no right or wrong answer. As for the spelling, I (and many others) don't particularly worry about it on a quick-response forum, as up until the Bike Radar forums starting, this sort of posturing by insignificant little boys like you was just not prevalent.

I'm glad you enjoy spending you day trawling the forums for spelling mistakes, it only confirms my suspicions about you. I do also hope this throws you into the inevitable forum rage, as again, this is very much predictable. Well done.

L60N

lol Ticaboy, thats made my day ^^

Heading for the trails, cya

Richrd2205

Ratkilla,
You are some piece of work. Where the hell do you get off starting a personal assault on me on this forum?

As for the spelling, I (and many others) don't particularly worry about it on a quick-response forum, as up until the Bike Radar forums starting, this sort of posturing by insignificant little boys like you was just not prevalent.

Ticaboy, I'm intrigued to hear your answer to your first question. No-one's told you that you're wrong BTW, but that your logic is deeply flawed. There were also far fewer VCRs, telephones & cars 20 years ago. Are these also involved? (To clarify, correlation & causation are 2 different things)

FWIW, I think that the problem is far more complex than any one simple measure can change. There have been huge changes in the way society functions, in demographic patterns & what is deemed acceptable behaviour. There always has been anti-social behaviour & people have always looked back to a "golden age" in the recent past. Human beings are way more complex than simple cause & effect. Respect, or lack thereof, is one of many functions of the way society as a whole functions. The idea that violence against the weak will solve it is laughably simplistic. As is the idea that "acceptable violence" is helpful, but then a small increase therein is child abuse, which is a terrible thing...

OT, Ratkilla, you're in Paisley too? I was thinking I was the only one!
*waves*
(My location tag disappeared in the move & I haven't set it back up yet)

Ratkilla

Ratkilla laughs uncontrollably for a while and then regains his or her composure.

This is the dawning of a new era!
Where the once supposedly 'insignificant' now have a voice!
Vive la Revolution!
Viva Zapata's moustache!

Looks like I opened up your spinal cord and played your nerves like a banjo mon ami.
As for 'forum rage' everyone knows that the person with the problem is always the last to acknowledge it.
Get a dictionary and under R look up the word reactionary and then under S look up the word sarcasm. This may help you come to terms with our language and may go some way to lifting your obvious pain.
And you never did say whether you were slapped about by your teacher.

The little boy comment should be flagged as offensive and sexist as I am, indeed, a woman.

Now go and hit your own children!

Ta Richard! I did notice it and was going to leave it in but ... the words easy target spring to mind!

Ratkilla

And hello to you too Richard!

Tony666

Isn’t ironic? The title of the thread is about improving respect for others and reading some of the replies it seems that there is little understanding of the word respect!

As for corporal punishment, I weigh 12 and a half stone, my three year weighs about 2 and a half. So when she misbehaves, there is nothing I like more that hitting (sorry smacking her) I am sure that taking my frustration out on her is doing her the world of good and teaching her all about respect. But what to do when she gets expelled from school because she hit someone who wasn’t showing her respect? After all, that’s what I taught her didn’t I? Oh now my wife isn’t showing respect, so can I hit her next? What’s the difference? Maybe it’s better to hit the wife as she is old enough to know better.

Yes that too is meant to be irony!

formerlyknownasbonj

4 - words - Bring Back The Cane.
The only reason today's lippy little gobsh1tes think they can get away with anything is because they're right, they can. It's a sad fact of life with the mentality of today's kids that the only way they will respect their elders and betters is if they are allowed to use the fact that they are bigger and stronger. It was banned in the sixties or whatever, corporal punishment won't need to be in place for long ( < 30 years) before the standard of parents goes up, and there will be parents who actually care if their kids have been in trouble at school. I think we would then get into a situation where the cane is allowed to be used, just not used very often unless absolutely necessary. But at the moment, all teachers can do if a child is being disruptive is have them removed from the class, whereupon they just go on the park and smoke fags with the other chavs. And they can't be expelled, because that might impact on their 'human rights' to education. Whereas what they should have, is still have them educated, but if they are expelled instead of being educated in school they are educated in borstal. After a year in borstal, they are allowed back into school, but if they are expelled again, it's back to borstal for 2 years, etc.

Richrd2205

ha, ha, ha!!!
I'm assuming that you're being ironic, Bonj: since even a toatie wee look round the interweb will show you that your post makes very little sense with regard to the evidence...
I'll ignore the borstal nonsense & let you look up the long British history of this one & concentrate on the rest...

The only reason today's lippy little gobsh1tes think they can get away with anything is because they're right, they can. It's a sad fact of life with the mentality of today's kids that the only way they will respect their elders and betters is if they are allowed to use the fact that they are bigger and stronger. It was banned in the sixties or whatever, corporal punishment won't need to be in place for long ( < 30 years) before the standard of parents goes up, and there will be parents who actually care if their kids have been in trouble at school. I think we would then get into a situation where the cane is allowed to be used, just not used very often unless absolutely necessary

I take it that your point about the cane improving parenting, is about using it on the parents?
You're right, I think about kids thinking they can get away with things, but social behaviour tends to be defined by what is seen as acceptable. It's about the way that these limits are communicated. Violence is one way, but it's really not that effective. Effective non-violent parenting with commensurate societal messages will work far better.
To put it another way, most of my clients were these folk a few years ago & most respect me. I've never used any violence. How can this be if your post is valid?

(Ratkilla, there's a disagreement between a pronoun in your first sentence & the penultimate sentence which you may want to edit if you want to avoid being flamed by a numpty )

& fantastic post, Tony!

formerlyknownasbonj

Richrd2205 wrote:

I take it that your point about the cane improving parenting, is about using it on the parents?

No. The biggest reason why a lot of kids don't respect teachers is because their parents haven't tought them respect. This is largely because their parents haven't got many morals, they believe the world owes them a living, and are out for what they can get out of the world. They have no morals, basically. It's always take, take, take. The parents don't even teach their kids respect for THEM - they can't be bothered. As long as they aren't getting in their way they don't care. They're just bad parents all round.

The cane would FORCE them to respect their teachers, and then when they had kids themselves, they would teach them morals and respect for others, especially teachers - once this 'second generation' started coming through, the cane wouldn't be needed as much. Hopefully just the knowledge that it could be used, and the prudent and fair use of it, would be enough in most cases even in the early stages of its reinstatement.

Richrd2205 wrote:

You're right, I think about kids thinking they can get away with things, but social behaviour tends to be defined by what is seen as acceptable. It's about the way that these limits are communicated.

So how do YOU think the limits should be communicated to the type of kids that think it's normal behaviour to tell teachers to 'f**k off' if they don't like what they're being asked to do, and that every lesson they rant and rave to such an extent that they disrupt the class for everyone else and make the teacher feel stressed and helpless? They don't listen to being lectured, they know their 'right' not to be laid a finger on, and if the teachers phone the parents, the parents tell them to 'f**k off'.

Richrd2205 wrote:

Violence is one way, but it's really not that effective.

As the bleedin' hearts would have us believe, but the problems with lack of respect for teachers that are widespread in today's schools were largely non-existent in the sixties. Why is that then?

Richrd2205 wrote:

Effective non-violent parenting with commensurate societal messages will work far better.

Yes but a lot of parents are lazy, and can't be bothered with 'effective' parenting.
they don't have any respect for society themselves, so there's no one to teach respect to their kids.

Richrd2205 wrote:

To put it another way, most of my clients were these folk a few years ago & most respect me. I've never used any violence. How can this be if your post is valid?

Well it's probably got something to do with what they're "clients" of. What are you? Are you a solicitor? Drug rehabilitation counsellor?
A lot of kids simply don't like school so they don't see the point in going, and they resent the fact that they're made to. But your "clients" presumably have enrolled with you because they think there's a point to your services - whatever they may be.

formerlyknownasbonj

Tony666 wrote:

Isn’t ironic? The title of the thread is about improving respect for others and reading some of the replies it seems that there is little understanding of the word respect!

As for corporal punishment, I weigh 12 and a half stone, my three year weighs about 2 and a half. So when she misbehaves, there is nothing I like more that hitting (sorry smacking her) I am sure that taking my frustration out on her is doing her the world of good and teaching her all about respect. But what to do when she gets expelled from school because she hit someone who wasn’t showing her respect? After all, that’s what I taught her didn’t I? Oh now my wife isn’t showing respect, so can I hit her next? What’s the difference? Maybe it’s better to hit the wife as she is old enough to know better.

Yes that too is meant to be irony!

But surely it's better to only use as much force as is necessary. If she's three, then shouting at her is likely to scare/shock her enough to know that she shouldn't do that again.
Kids in secondary school are more savvy and don't often respond to being shouted at, or just shout back.

Noodley

Good to see Soapbox is getting back into full swing and with different loonies to supplement the old familiar names as well :twisted:

ransos

Unfortunately for Bonj, he hasn't demonstrated a causal link. His logic is that because we had the cane when respect was pperceived to be higher, then bringing back the can would solve the problem. There is no reson to suspect that this is true. And in any case, many commentators have noted this supposed problem to be a recent problem, yet the cane has been banned for over 20 years. So why wasn't there a sudden upsurge in problems in 1986?