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One brave lady.

jibijibi Posts: 857
edited August 2007 in Campaign
One impressive woman

Here is a powerful and amazing statement on Al Jazeera television.

The woman is Wafa Sultan, an Arab-American psychologist from Los Angeles. I would suggest watching it ASAP because I don't know how long the link will be active.

http://tinyurl.com/qehbo

Refreshing and educational.
Her comments at the end about Jews and Buddhists not retaliating make absolute sense.

george
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Posts

  • graham56graham56 Posts: 634
    Amazing!!!!!!! as you say a very impressive woman.

    It`s a state of mind.
  • bad companybad company Posts: 2,293
    Well said that lady :D
    I AM THE STIG - HONEST
  • CanriderCanrider Posts: 2,253
    edited July 2007
    The link isn't working for me, but it's opening up FrontPage to 'edit' a page with MEMRI displaying, so I'm going to assume you are linking to memri's site, on which they also have their transcription of some of the dialogue.

    Here's the problem: MEMRI have been known to edit their transcriptions, particularly to bring out certain portions they feel are important. These 'important' bits are sometimes quite selective, and tend to portray Islam in a negative light. For example:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Eas ... ontroversy

    Here is another translation of the entire dialogue with no bits edited out:

    http://aqoul.com/images/wafa_sultan.pdf

    There's also a discussion of the two translation efforts here:

    http://www.aqoul.com/archives/2006/03/a ... _trans.php

    I note in particular that MEMRI's use of the word 'heretic' is disputed, when the actual word used appears to translate better as 'atheist'.
    "We will never win until the oil runs out or they invent hover cars - but then they may land on us." -- lardarse rider
  • CanriderCanrider Posts: 2,253
    Still not working, but it's probably at my end--we're having server problems today.

    What did you think of the differences in translation?
    "We will never win until the oil runs out or they invent hover cars - but then they may land on us." -- lardarse rider
  • Absinthe MindedAbsinthe Minded Posts: 1,351
    Great stuff. Thanks for posting it!
    <hr><font><b><font>Ja sam napisao ovo ovde samo zbog toga da izgledam pametan...</font></b></font>
    <font>See My route to work!</font>
  • cygnetcygnet Posts: 92
    I saw this version: http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp? ... wmv&ak=nul

    She seems to makes valid points, but at c. 4.45 (according to the translation) "We have not seen a SINGLE Jew protest by killing people" (my emphasis) um, wasn't the man who assassinated Rabin Jewish? IIRC his reasons were to do with being against the peace process that Rabin was involved in. (haven't checked this by the way) It certainly de-railed the Oslo accords. (and yes, it is easier to find an exception)
    _____________________
    I'm part of the association!
  • Saddle bumSaddle bum Posts: 2,044
    cygnet wrote:
    I saw this version: http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp? ... wmv&ak=nul

    She seems to makes valid points, but at c. 4.45 (according to the translation) "We have not seen a SINGLE Jew protest by killing people" (my emphasis) um, wasn't the man who assassinated Rabin Jewish? IIRC his reasons were to do with being against the peace process that Rabin was involved in. (haven't checked this by the way) It certainly de-railed the Oslo accords. (and yes, it is easier to find an exception)

    The Stern Gang didn't do too bad in the late 1940s.


    Molon Labe.
  • Patrick StevensPatrick Stevens Posts: 13,398
    Saddle bum wrote:
    cygnet wrote:
    I saw this version: http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp? ... wmv&ak=nul

    She seems to makes valid points, but at c. 4.45 (according to the translation) "We have not seen a SINGLE Jew protest by killing people" (my emphasis) um, wasn't the man who assassinated Rabin Jewish? IIRC his reasons were to do with being against the peace process that Rabin was involved in. (haven't checked this by the way) It certainly de-railed the Oslo accords. (and yes, it is easier to find an exception)

    The Stern Gang didn't do too bad in the late 1940s.

    That was a while ago. In the here and now, there's a dearth of Jewish suicide bombers.
  • CanriderCanrider Posts: 2,253
    Plenty of Jewish settlers beating, stoning and shooting at Palestinian Arabs over the past few decades--does any of that count Patrick? Feel free to refer to B'Tselem for specific incidents...

    Graffiti reading 'Arabs to the crematoria' has been seen in Hebron within the past five years. Apparently the council workers weren't particularly interested in removing it...until some leftists drew a swastika next to it. Then it got washed off. :roll:
    "We will never win until the oil runs out or they invent hover cars - but then they may land on us." -- lardarse rider
  • CanriderCanrider Posts: 2,253
    Rabbi Stephen Julius Stein on Wafa Sultan:

    "The more Sultan talked, the more evident it became that progress in the Muslim world was not her interest. Even more troubling, it was not what the Jewish audience wanted to hear about. Applause, even cheers, interrupted her calumnies.

    Judea Pearl, an attendee and father of murdered journalist Daniel Pearl, was one of the few voices of restraint and nuance heard that afternoon. In response to Sultan's assertion that the Koran contains only verses of evil and domination, Pearl said he understood the book also included "verses of peace" that proponents of Islam uphold as the religion's true intent. The Koran's verses on war and brutality, Pearl contended, were "cultural baggage," as are similar verses in the Torah. Unfortunately, his words were drowned out by the cheers for Sultan's full-court press against Islam and Muslims.
    (...)
    As I experienced the fervor sparked by Sultan's anti-Muslim tirade and stoked by a roomful of apparently unsuspecting Jews, I thought: What if down the street there was a roomful of Muslims listening to a self-loathing Jew, cheering her on as she spoke of the evils inherent in the Torah, in which it is commanded that a child must be stoned to death if he insults his parents, in which Israelites are ordered by God to conquer cities and, in so doing, to kill all women and children — and this imagined Jew completely ignored all of what Judaism teaches afterward?"

    Link: http://www.ncpa.info/news/view_newsdetails.asp?id=258
    "We will never win until the oil runs out or they invent hover cars - but then they may land on us." -- lardarse rider
  • Patrick StevensPatrick Stevens Posts: 13,398
    Canrider wrote:
    Plenty of Jewish settlers beating, stoning and shooting at Palestinian Arabs over the past few decades--does any of that count Patrick? :

    No, it doesn't count as suicide bombings. In any event, even if Jewish settlers were suicide bombing Palestinians, I don't see it as justification for killing civilians in Britain.
  • timdanahertimdanaher Posts: 120
    I Thought I'd see if I could find this on YouTube...the links don't work for me. Didn't find it, but did find a lot about this particular lady. There seems to be a cottage industry dedicated to discrediting her.

    Have a look at this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztXaNwbbJQU

    Can you get to the end of it? I lasted nearly three minutes.
  • homers_doublehomers_double Posts: 6,939
    And she's still alive?
    Advocate of disc brakes.
  • CanriderCanrider Posts: 2,253
    "No, it doesn't count as suicide bombings."

    No, but it does fit the definition of terrorism, defined as '...violence or other harmful acts committed (or threatened) against civilians by groups or persons for political or other ideological goals. Most definitions of terrorism include only those acts which are intended to create fear or "terror", are perpetrated for an ideological goal (as opposed to a lone attack), and deliberately target "non-combatants".'

    And what does this have to do with attacks on Britain?

    And did you have any opinion on the reliability of Dr. Sultan's interpretation of the Koran, or MEMRI's translation of the televised debate?
    "We will never win until the oil runs out or they invent hover cars - but then they may land on us." -- lardarse rider
  • Patrick StevensPatrick Stevens Posts: 13,398
    As I don't speak Arabic, I have no opinion on the translations involved. This is the New York Times' version of what she said:

    She went on, "We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people."

    She concluded, "Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them."
  • CanriderCanrider Posts: 2,253
    Right. And your opinion on the presenting of selected quotes, versus presenting a translation of the entire debate would be?
    "We will never win until the oil runs out or they invent hover cars - but then they may land on us." -- lardarse rider
  • Patrick StevensPatrick Stevens Posts: 13,398
    Canrider wrote:
    Right. And your opinion on the presenting of selected quotes, versus presenting a translation of the entire debate would be?

    That this is not unusual. Academic papers often contain quotes with the reference at the bottom of the page.
  • CanriderCanrider Posts: 2,253
    Patrick, it's not an academic paper.
    "We will never win until the oil runs out or they invent hover cars - but then they may land on us." -- lardarse rider
  • Patrick StevensPatrick Stevens Posts: 13,398
    Canrider wrote:
    Patrick, it's not an academic paper.

    No, but I was merely pointing out that it is not unusual to quote from part of a whole. For example, The Guardian will often quote from part of a politicians speech, rather than print all of it. TV news is much the same. I cannot recall a BBC or ITV news item which showed the whole of a speech.

    This is for the reason, that there's insufficent space to publish everything that's been said and in any event, the reader might not want to read all of it.
  • CanriderCanrider Posts: 2,253
    Except that MEMRI doesn't bill itself as a news agency, they bill themselves as a provider of translations of Middle Eastern media:

    "The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) explores the Middle East through the region's media. MEMRI bridges the language gap which exists between the West and the Middle East, providing timely translations of Arabic, Persian, and Turkish media, as well as original analysis of political, ideological, intellectual, social, cultural, and religious trends in the Middle East.

    Founded in February 1998 to inform the debate over U.S. policy in the Middle East, MEMRI is an independent, nonpartisan, nonprofit, 501 (c)3 organization."

    Given which, I find it suspicious that they've only chosen to provide a partial translation.
    "We will never win until the oil runs out or they invent hover cars - but then they may land on us." -- lardarse rider
  • Patrick StevensPatrick Stevens Posts: 13,398
    Canrider wrote:
    Except that MEMRI doesn't bill itself as a news agency, they bill themselves as a provider of translations of Middle Eastern media:


    Given which, I find it suspicious that they've only chosen to provide a partial translation.

    Eh? What's this got to do with it? Irrespective of how accurate any part of an individual translation is, she's been saying the same sort of thing repeatedly. She's not going round saying she's been misquoted.

    I accept that she may have a dim view of Muslims - while she was at university, her professor was shot in front of her by the Muslim Brotherhood, but her views are pretty consistent.
  • CanriderCanrider Posts: 2,253
    ..which has also been disputed by various people who claim to have been at the same university at the same time, and that no such events occurred..

    But we're discussing in the context of various people on this thread watching the clip, reading the translation of her words and praising her point of view. I'm merely trying to point out that her point of view is 1) disputed by various other people as being inaccurate and defamatory and 2) being presented by a group who are also accused of presenting an inaccurate picture of Middle Eastern media under the cover story of 'impartial translation'.

    Consistency of viewpoint doesn't enter into it, what we're talking about here is whether her point has any validity, or is she just cashing in on a particular facet of Islamophobia.
    "We will never win until the oil runs out or they invent hover cars - but then they may land on us." -- lardarse rider
  • ElskippyElskippy Posts: 35
    I kind of found it slightly distrurbing that she continually referred to "muslims" as if the whole muslim race are engaged in hatred and violence. This kind of generalisation is dangerous and unfair. I know of plenty muslims who have contributed hugely to the society in which I live and to societies around the world.

    Hi everyone btw, new here and just checking the joint out. Cosy ain't it.
  • my god's better than your god, could it be any easier to explain. religions can be volatile.
    dangerous jules.
  • BigWombleBigWomble Posts: 455
    It seems a shame that they can't publish the whole conversation - instead they think that by editing the footage that they can make their spokesperson look knowledgeable, while the opposition sulks in ignorant silence.
    Ta - Arabic for moo-cow
  • vitesse169vitesse169 Posts: 420
    this woman speaks total sense. who is she, i've never seen or heard of her. let's hope that this and other speeches/discussions are given more airtime...
  • Patrick StevensPatrick Stevens Posts: 13,398
    For those who think that we've only got to change our foreign policy for the fanatics to leave us alone - Al-Queda have threatened to retaliate for our giving Rushdie a knighthood.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle ... 289110.stm
  • rprodgersrprodgers Posts: 45
    And she's still alive?


    That I think sums up the perception that certain Muslims have created.

    Our perception is that if any utters any thing against Muslims then threats of violence / death will be issued.

    What ever the truth about the contents in the Koran surely these terrorists have caused many non Muslims to be repulsed by the Islamic faith ..
  • BigWombleBigWomble Posts: 455
    rprodgers wrote:
    And she's still alive?


    That I think sums up the perception that certain Muslims have created.

    Our perception is that if any utters any thing against Muslims then threats of violence / death will be issued.

    What ever the truth about the contents in the Koran surely these terrorists have caused many non Muslims to be repulsed by the Islamic faith ..

    Not me. My experience of Muslims is that they are, if anything, over friendly. Dammit mate, I'm British. :oops:
    Ta - Arabic for moo-cow
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