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Cyclists in Oxford fined again for RLJing

dakidcpdakidcp Posts: 744
edited July 2007 in Campaign
Can't see it posted anywhere else, and thought people might find it interesting.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/6245422.stm

<hr noshade size="1">"Get a bicycle. You will not regret it, if you live."
<i>Mark Twain</i>
<hr noshade size="1">"Get a bicycle. You will not regret it, if you live."
<i>Mark Twain</i>
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  • 2 and a half grand, not bad for a morning's work.
  • Mosschops2Mosschops2 Posts: 1,774
    I am curious to know whether motorists complained because a) they thought it was genuinely dangerous or b) they were simply narked off with RLJers.

    Either way, it's clear as day that cagers don't like it........ no big suprises there then.....

    <font size="1">Haszn lat ut n hideg v¡zben mossa ki, ‚s t”r”lje sz razra. Ne hagyja k”zvetlen napf‚nynek kit‚ve.</font id="size1">
    baby elephants? Any baby elephants here?? Helloo-ooo
  • Small FishSmall Fish Posts: 84
    Why do you assume it was motorists who complained?
    Maybe it was pedestrians fed up with having to avoid cyclists who take no notice of the pedestrian crossing phase of the lights.
    There's relatively few cars round that part of Oxford - lot's and lots of people on foot.
  • dakidcpdakidcp Posts: 744
    A colleague of mine used to work in Oxford city centre, and he said he often got almost hit by cyclists who jumped red lights as he was crossing the road. Despite being a cyclist myself (and enjoying it a lot), I still think I'd be liable to throw a kick at the wheel of an eejit who decided my life and wellbeing was less important than his getting somewhere a few seconds faster!

    Still, I'm looking forward to seeing the police fining motorists who drive too close to the car in front ... now that one WILL be a nice little earner.

    <hr noshade size="1">"Get a bicycle. You will not regret it, if you live."
    <i>Mark Twain</i>
    <hr noshade size="1">"Get a bicycle. You will not regret it, if you live."
    <i>Mark Twain</i>
  • CometGirlCometGirl Posts: 2,681
    Broad Street / Parks Road?

    Excellent.

    I used to live in Oxford. It was crossing that junction on foot that my rib was broken by a numpty RLJer.
  • Bing oBing o Posts: 4
    Cyclists should be held accountable for their actions when they contravene existing laws and the highway code. Red light jumping is dangerous end of. You can't cherry pick which rules to obey. Can you imagine the furore if as many drivers jumped the lights as often as I see cyclists doing the same?

    I drive a Lotus, therefore I am...
    I drive a Lotus, therefore I am...
  • Fab FoodieFab Foodie Posts: 5,155
    Good.
    It's getting bl00dy dangerous stopping for a Red light in Oxford. Been rear-ended twice by numptys who don't think the lights apply to them.

    The pessimists of this world are rarely disappointed....
    Fab's TCR1

    The pessimists of this world are rarely disappointed....
    Fab's TCR1
  • rothbookrothbook Posts: 943
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Can you imagine the furore if as many drivers jumped the lights as often as I see cyclists doing the same? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    They do:

    A key finding which should be noted was that, when commenting on the scenarios it was usually the behaviour of the cyclist that was criticised "no matter how small the misdemeanour". Few links were made between the cyclist's behaviour and any external influences that could be affecting their choice of behaviour; i.e. the respondents' comments indicated that they thought the cyclist's actions were inherent and dispositional behaviours. In contrast, the motorists' misdemeanours were excused or justified in terms of the situational influences. As this tendency seemed to continue across the groups and the individual depth interviews and was unprompted, it is unlikely that group dynamics had any significant effect on this finding. [...] This aligns with the psychological prediction of targeting of members of an 'out group'..

    Transport Research Laboratory research report 549, 2003

    Woman hits cyclist, cyclist falls off and is killed. Woman goes to court, pleads that points will mean an automatic ban (she has already been convicted of several offences), and that means she would have to walk two miles to school. Intolerable! So she walks away with her licence and a œ250 fine. That, my friend, is the reality of motorists' accountability, brought to you by registration plates, excise duty, compulsory testing and insurance. Now read on...

    A survey by the RAC found that, yes, a lot of cyclists run red lights. It also found that one in ten drivers in Manchester and London crossed traffic lights more than three seconds after the lights turned red, and one in five bus drivers ran red lights. There are ten thousand traffic light camera prosecutions annually in London alone, a small part of the 1.5 million prosecutions annually based on camera evidence (I don't know what proportion are speed versus red lights), in turn the tip of the iceberg of twelve million prosecutions and cautions for motoring offences by UK police forces in 2002.

    Lawbreaking, then, is not restricted to bikes. Motorists break the law in vast numbers. Speeding, in particular , is rife, and despite the evidence that the faster you go the more likely you are to kill or be killed if you crash, when speed cameras are erected we don't laugh at the idiots who get caught, we rail against the "stealth tax" on motorists. Gatsos are a stealth tax on motorists in the same way that city centre video cameras are a stealth tax on muggers and DNA testing is a stealth tax on rapists. People will brake to 20mph when they see a Gatso in a 60 limit, because they haven't a clue what the limit is - they simply don't care enough to know. I drive a car, and I drive within the speed limit, which means for a start knowing what the limit is. I haven't always, and I've driven when too tired, and while talking on the phone, but I don't do that stuff any more because it's too bloody dangerous. When you wake up as you hit the rumble strips on the M3 at 135mph at 3am after a 44 hour shift you realise that life's too short for that kind of stupidity. The plain and obvious fact is that, however illegal the cyclists' behaviour may be, the likely consequences are trivial compared with the daily consequences of illegal behaviour we claim as a right as drivers.

    Drivers also park illegally, causing danger and inconvenience. And they fail to observe box junctions (many drivers haven't a clue what these are anyway), they overtake on the inside, they hog the middle lane on motorways, they drive on the pavement and damage it, they use fog lights when it's not foggy or raining, they drive while drunk or stoned or smoking or talking on the phone, they drive with the stereo turned up too loud, they drive looking over their shoulders at screaming children, and they kill and injure over a quarter of a million people a year. And they seem to think that an annual payment of a hundred and fifty quid gives them a right to do this.

    So on the matter of cyclists and illegal behaviour, I quote the well known words of John 8:7 - let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
  • CometGirlCometGirl Posts: 2,681
    Rothbook.

    Sweetie.

    The Pledge applies.

    Bloody good post though. [:D] In fact, I like this bit so much I think I'll quote it.

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Drivers also park illegally, causing danger and inconvenience. And they fail to observe box junctions (many drivers haven't a clue what these are anyway), they overtake on the inside, they hog the middle lane on motorways, they drive on the pavement and damage it, they use fog lights when it's not foggy or raining, they drive while drunk or stoned or smoking or talking on the phone, they drive with the stereo turned up too loud, they drive looking over their shoulders at screaming children, and they kill and injure over a quarter of a million people a year. And they seem to think that an annual payment of a hundred and fifty quid gives them a right to do this.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
  • Bing oBing o Posts: 4
    rothbook, dear chap, an utterly predictable response. I don't deny that motorists transgress red lights/parking and speed limits as well. The post was about cyclists jumping lights and being fined for it. Some of the responses were that this was unfair. I think it is perfectly fair - in all the circumstances you mention, the motorist is held accountable, and may have their license taken away, whereas a cyclist can continue to transgress without fear of prosecution.

    I am not trolling, I am trying to add some balance to these debates - I am all for people cycling where possible, however I believe that we all should be bound by the same rules of the road.

    I drive a Lotus, therefore I am...
    I drive a Lotus, therefore I am...
  • DuduDudu Posts: 4,637
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bing o</i>

    rothbook, dear chap, an utterly predictable response.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    But still a bloody good post. Especially the last bit that Cometgirl quoted.

    I'm happy to hear of the Plod nicking cyclists who run red lights. But I'd be even happier if there were equally high-profile campaigns against motorists who jump red lights, including those who block ASLs, pedestrian crossings and yellow boxes.


    <font size="1">*** Have you got rock salmon?
    No, but we've got soul ***</font id="size1">
    ___________________________________________
    People need to be told what to do so badly they'll listen to anyone
  • rothbookrothbook Posts: 943
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Can you imagine the furore if as many drivers jumped the lights as often as I see cyclists doing the same? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    This implies cyclists transgress ruules more than motorists.

    Considering the number of uninsured drivers in the UK (1.25m) outnumber the total number of cyclists (1m), it's clear you're talking out of your censored .

    And who said it's unfair to fine RLJ's anyway?

    You're not making lies up , are you?
  • rothbookrothbook Posts: 943
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> in all the circumstances you mention, the motorist is held accountable <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Twaddle.

    80% of motorists admit speeding.

    80% of motorists are not fined for speeding, and only 3% of drivers on a mobile get caught.

    Have an opinion bingo by all means but don't post stuff you've made up out of thin air.
  • RegulatorRegulator Posts: 417
    When police in London carried out a clampdown on RLJing earlier this year, in 8 hours at one set of traffic lights they stopped 3 cyclists......



    ... and 147 motorists!

    ___________________________
    censored elephants - capabari are cuter!


    *Edited for clarity
    ___________________________
    censored elephants - capabari are cuter!
  • Bing oBing o Posts: 4
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by rothbook</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Can you imagine the furore if as many drivers jumped the lights as often as I see cyclists doing the same? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    This implies cyclists transgress ruules more than motorists.

    Considering the number of uninsured drivers in the UK (1.25m) outnumber the total number of cyclists (1m), it's clear you're talking out of your censored .

    And who said it's unfair to fine RLJ's anyway?

    You're not making lies up , are you?


    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Not making anything up, and there is no need to be rude.

    I didn't say that cyclists transgress more rules than motorists - the number of idiot drivers out there outweighs the total number of cyclists I see.

    The original point I was making is that we should all be accountable for all of the rules on the road.

    I wish that police would target all forms of antisocial road use WHOMEVER commits it.

    The tone of a couple of posts on here seemed to convey the opinion that they thought it was a bit unfair...if I have misinterprted that, then I apologise.
    2 and a half grand, not bad for a morning's work.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Mosschops2I am curious to know whether motorists complained because a) they thought it was genuinely dangerous or b) they were simply narked off with RLJers.

    Either way, it's clear as day that cagers don't like it........ no big suprises there then.....

    I drive a Lotus, therefore I am...
    I drive a Lotus, therefore I am...
  • Mosschops2Mosschops2 Posts: 1,774
    Small Fish - fair point!! Somehow I read motorist in there - even though it didn't say it [:I][:I]

    <font size="1">Haszn lat ut n hideg v¡zben mossa ki, ‚s t”r”lje sz razra. Ne hagyja k”zvetlen napf‚nynek kit‚ve.</font id="size1">
    baby elephants? Any baby elephants here?? Helloo-ooo
  • PringlecpPringlecp Posts: 771
    I'm with rothbook on this one.

    rantModeOn//

    I don't support any cyclist breaking the law, but the total amount of media coverage given to the "problem" of lycra louts as opposed to anti-social motorist never fails to amaze me.

    I see motorists breaking the law so frequently it scares me. For example. Today, 3 mile commute:
    car parked on zebra crossing
    car overtakes another car at different zebra crossing while ped on it - ped has to stop or get hit
    lost count of the number of car, lorry and van drivers on the hand held mobile while driving
    at every set of lights, I'd say an average of 4 cars went through on red (noticed one bike do the same)
    loads of undertaking and generally wee poor selfish behaviour..the list could go on

    But it's as if all this behaviour is invisible to the average motorist - they'll just remember the cyclist that jumped the red - they've got the morality of the censored down the pub who's on the dole and works cash in hand but will sit there all night taking the moral high ground moaning about all these "bloody foreigners coming here and sponging off the state."

    The amount of people I other wise respect who turn into absolute ****ers when they talk about driving - you know the ones: "I parked on the pavement so I wasn't blocking the road, and they still gave me a ticket." or "got done on my mobile the other day, you'd have thought the police would have better things to do." type comments are so often listened to and sympathised with by the vast majority of people. Can you imagine coming out with lines such as "I only took a few items without paying, and they still arrested me." or "I only wanted to feel her censored , so I put my hand up her skirt, and now she's doing me for sexual harassment" and getting anything like the sympathy that the poor old law breaking motorist gets when they rant on the unfairness of it all.

    With rant mode firmly on now, I've posted this story once before, so sorry if anyone can actually remember it - Cycling through Twickenham last summer. There is a junction outside the station. The light was red, I stopped in the ASL. The light changed to green, I set off, a car sped up and jumped the red light to my left, and would have taken me out if I hadn't taken avoiding action. As the driver entered into the bus lane outside the station, he leaned out of his window, made a rude gesture with his hand and said words to the effect that it made a difference he'd jumped a red because it was normally cyclists that did that. He drove off laughing. The next two occasions where I told people what had happened (in the pub that evening and at work on Monday) their immediate action was to say that the driver did have a point and then went on to slag off cyclists in general. No one referred to his actions as being wrong.

    My point is that most of us will see examples of poor to criminal behaviour on the road on most days - especially here in London. And I'm talking here about ALL road users. BUT, when you look on the internet, read local and national papers, listen to radio phone-ins, watch local and national news, listen to everyone from MP's to colleagues at work and friends down the pub etc, there is a disproportionate amount of anger and annoyance and time directed towards the behaviour of irresponsible cyclists.

    rantModeOff//


    Another year older, another Budweiser
    Another year older, another Budweiser
  • CometGirlCometGirl Posts: 2,681
    [Devil's Advocate]

    Could the plod actually be doing us law-abiding cyclist types a huge favour by nicking RLJs? As the moton goes past, at 35mph, mobile phone clamped firmly to ear, bucket of Star$s balanced precariously on lap, speeding up for the amber light before pulling sharply into a disabled bay while they "just" pop to the cash machine, they can think smugly "Hah! That'll teach 'em!" This <i>might</i> mean that (1) they stop taking vigilante action against every random cyclist they see in retrospective revenge for the one who sailed through the lights, and (2) when they're pulled over for any of the above, they won't moan about being the poor persecuted motorist.

    So really, it's much better that they get away with it while RLJ cyclists are pulled over. Makes for a happier climate all round. [}:)]

    [/Devil's Advocate]
  • Mister PaulMister Paul Posts: 719
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bing o</i>

    I wish that police would target all forms of antisocial road use WHOMEVER commits it.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    IME they do. In which particular areas do you think road users are getting away with it?

    __________________________________________________________
    <font size="1">What we need is a new, national <b>White Bicycle Plan</b></font id="size1">
    __________________________________________________________
    <font>What we need is a new, national <b>White Bicycle Plan</b></font>
  • rgismergisme Posts: 1,598
    I don't really get the point here. Some cyclists got nicked for RLJing. So what, really? What are we arguing about actually? I mean it always seems that whenever cyclists are targetted someone else will come along and say motorists commit more serious offences - but does that mean that there shouldn't be any enforcement against cyclists too while motorists are still committing offences or what? I don't particularly like it if I get stopped for something or other, but I don't complain that the police should be out doing more important things if it happens.
  • CabCab Posts: 770
    Excellent rant Pringle. I wholeheartedly agree. I don't for an instant condone cyclists breaking the law, but it seems like so many people have no sense of perspective on this.



    <i>Free baby elephants for every citizen</i>
    Vote Arch for Prime Minister
  • Tourist TonyTourist Tony Posts: 8,628
    The point here is "them, us". To the great unwashed, we are "them", eating swans and RLJing.
    The cagers are "us" to the press, and therefore have a valid reason for ignoring nanny-state (continues for 94 interminable pages)

    If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or censored
    If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or censored
    http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=3 ... =3244&v=5K
  • BigBrenBigBren Posts: 145
    Rothbook is on fire in this thread! Bingo was, as the kids might say, 'owned'. (I'm not entirely sure what it means, but I would like to establish some kind of yoof credentials.)

    Also:

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I'm happy to hear of the Plod nicking cyclists who run red lights. But I'd be even happier if there were equally high-profile campaigns against motorists who jump red lights, including those who block ASLs, pedestrian crossings and yellow boxes.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I concur completely, but would add my new pet hate to that list - mobile phone users. I drive on the motorway virtually every day and see a preponderance of arrogant asshats chattering away on their mobile phones. Stuck on the M62 this morning, I was alongside a twunt in a chelsea tractor for a good 30-40 mins - never once took his phone away from his ear. Where are the rozzers when you need 'em? It would have made my day see him get nicked.

    Bren
  • Can anyone here who cycles regularly swear on oath that they have never jumped a red light on their bike?
  • Mike HealeyMike Healey Posts: 1,023
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Tourist_Tony</i>

    Can anyone here who cycles regularly swear on oath that they have never jumped a red light on their bike?
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Amber gambled on the odd occasion but never rlj'd. T'ain't necessary

    Organising the Bradford Kids Saturday Bike Club at the Richard Dunn Sports Centre since 1998
    Organising the Bradford Kids Saturday Bike Club at the Richard Dunn Sports Centre since 1998
    http://www.facebook.com/groups/eastbradfordcyclingclub/
    http://www.facebook.com/groups/eastbradfordcyclingclub/
  • rgismergisme Posts: 1,598
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Tourist Tony</i>

    If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or censored
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Hmm. It looks like you'll have to call it Tourist_Tony now...
  • rgismergisme Posts: 1,598
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by rgisme</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Tourist Tony</i>

    If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or censored
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Hmm. It looks like you'll have to call it Tourist_Tony now...
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Oh well, it didn't last long anyway (now n/a) good riddance.
  • Bing oBing o Posts: 4
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mister Paul</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bing o</i>

    I wish that police would target all forms of antisocial road use WHOMEVER commits it.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    IME they do. In which particular areas do you think road users are getting away with it?

    __________________________________________________________
    <font size="1">What we need is a new, national <b>White Bicycle Plan</b></font id="size1">
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Ok, let's start with incorrect lane discipline - out-to-in-to-outing over roundabouts, middle or outside lane hogging, and move onto inconsiderate/dangerous parking, general lack of observation/ability from some.

    I drive a Lotus, therefore I am...
    I drive a Lotus, therefore I am...
  • Absinthe MindedAbsinthe Minded Posts: 1,351
    It's bollocks - just because lots of motorists drive dangerously, doesn't mean it excuses the cyclists that do.
    <hr><font><b><font>Ja sam napisao ovo ovde samo zbog toga da izgledam pametan...</font></b></font>
    <font>See My route to work!</font>
  • Tourist TonyTourist Tony Posts: 8,628
    I don't think most people ARE saying that, just pointing out that more motorists do illegal things, they are far more dangerous than cyclists could ever be, and that there is more press coverage of "lycra louts who RLJ" than there is of the real killers.
    Let us improve road safety by targetting the killers.
    If you get caught, don't whinge. Your choice.
    If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or censored
    http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=3 ... =3244&v=5K
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