Primary Pants?

dondare · June 2007

Did Franklin invent the concept of primary position? It's not something I bother about myself, I use whatever part of the road I need to from the gutter to the other side of the centre line. I might be one foot out from the kerb, or four, or ten depending on whatever else is around, the state of the road and how fast I'm travelling. Simply maintaining primary seems too inflexible and isn't something that can be understood by anyone who hasn't read Franklin's book; most motorists for instance.
(I usually keep a spair pair of pants at work but am quite happy to go commando if not.)

"da sapienti et addetur ei sapientia doce iustum et festinabit accipere."

jamesAC · June 2007

You don't occupy the PP all the time. Usually, you are in secondary position (2 - 3 feet from the kerb). But, when things get dodgy (like the situation I described in the OP, or if there's a traffic island ahead and not much room, and so on), you put yourself in the PP - that way, you are most likely to be seen by drivers behind you, and those creeping out from behind obstructions at junctions. To a lesser extent (in my experience [:(]) it discourages motorists from trying to overtake you, squeezing you against railings etc.

Cheers

Why did Noddy pay the ransom? - Because the elephants have got big ears!

jamesAC

formerlyknownasbonj · June 2007

sounds like the driver made the logical progression along the lines of
"Cyclist ahead" => "therefore I must overtake".

Origamist · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Did Franklin invent the concept of primary position? It's not something I bother about myself, I use whatever part of the road I need to from the gutter to the other side of the centre line<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Much of what is in Cylecraft is based on John Forester's "Effective Cycling". The term "Primary position" may have been coined by Franklin, but it is the same as Forester's "Taking the Lane". However, my memory is a bit hazy as it is a long time since I read either text.

Folders

Jacomus-rides-Gen · June 2007

Has anyone else noticed that if you take a very primary position on a wide road cars will try and undertake you?

It happens to me most nights on the approach to the traffic lights at Blackfriars as I'm coming down Queen Vic st. holding a lane position for the lights.

_________________________
Quote: "25mph is pretty fast when you aren't wearing a car..."

domtyler · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jacomus-rides-Gen
Has anyone else noticed that if you take a very primary position on a wide road cars will try and undertake you?

It happens to me most nights on the approach to the traffic lights at Blackfriars as I'm coming down Queen Vic st. holding a lane position for the lights.

_________________________
Quote: "25mph is pretty fast when you aren't wearing a car..."
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's when weaving around becomes useful.

So people who like primary position should wear Red, Yellow or Blue pants then, and people who naturally tend towards secondary position should wear green, orange, purple etc. and people who ride in the gutter should wear brown pants.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Porridge not Petrol
________
CALIFORNIA DISPENSARY

Pete Owens · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jamesAC

I argue to myself that I was in the correct position; I find that the more experience I have of cycling, the more I adopt the primary position when conditions dictate.

But I just had a cold, gut wrenching moment when the guy roared off round the ti -- suppose a mother with a baby in a pram had stepped off in front of him, not expecting someone on the wromg side of the road? Technically, I suppose, it would be completely his fault.. but ..
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And from your description it sounds like a very good argument for appropriate use of the primary position - and it probably saved you a close shave.

Think about what would have happend if you were in the secondary position. The idiot overtaking you would would almost certainly have attempted to squeeze between you and the island. Yes there is the possibility that the gap on the other side of the island may have been occupied by a pram or whatever, but the gap on your side definately was occupied - by you.

Your position has not forced that driver to do anything - merely prevented him from squashing you.

Pete

dondare · June 2007

I am always in the correct position, it's everyone else who's wrong.

"da sapienti et addetur ei sapientia doce iustum et festinabit accipere."

domtyler · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Pete Owens

And from your description it sounds like a very good argument for appropriate use of the primary position - and it probably saved you a close shave.

Think about what would have happend if you were in the secondary position. The idiot overtaking you would would almost certainly have attempted to squeeze between you and the island. Yes there is the possibility that the gap on the other side of the island may have been occupied by a pram or whatever, but the gap on your side definately was occupied - by you.

Your position has not forced that driver to do anything - merely prevented him from squashing you.

Pete
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Nicely put Pete! [:)]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Porridge not Petrol
________
Jailbroken

habibi · June 2007

it'll be a cold day in hell before i adopt secondary position on ANY road. the only use for it is when slowing down to stop. i'd rather deal with the flack from ignorant motorists than take myself out of the traffic flow.

Tynancp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by habibi

it'll be a cold day in hell before i adopt secondary position on ANY road. the only use for it is when slowing down to stop. i'd rather deal with the flack from ignorant motorists than take myself out of the traffic flow.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

with respect that's nonsense, you'd do primary on a road where traffic is travelling at 30 or 40 mph?

Cab · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Tynan
with respect that's nonsense, you'd do primary on a road where traffic is travelling at 30 or 40 mph?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Depends very much on the road. Maybe.

Free baby elephants for every citizen
Vote Arch for Prime Minister

domtyler · June 2007

I can think of no reason to go primary when out on open A/B roads with no junctions, side roads, pedestrians, parked cars, traffic islands, speed bumps and so on to deal with. To do so is possibly slightly selfish and maybe even more dangerous than tucking in nearer the edge of the road, especially as the motor traffic is likely to be doing 50 mph or more. In narrow country lanes I use the full width of the lane.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Porridge not Petrol
________
City

Tynancp · June 2007

some people are so sctahing about bad drivers but seem to not consider that cyclists are subject to the same highway code

due care and consideration to other road users, making reasonable progress and so on, I'm still surprised at some of the primary zealots, I do use it a lot when there's a reason to but secondary is the correct place to be if there's no good reason to be in primary imho

habibi · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">with respect that's nonsense, you'd do primary on a road where traffic is travelling at 30 or 40 mph?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

routinely. i'm going a fair lick myself, and if they want to overtake, the highway code is quite clear about the correct procedure. i'm incoveniencing no one if they play by the rules - in fact i'm making sure that they do.

habibi · June 2007

i'd also posit the question - where's the merit in dodging potholes and debris at speed in secondary position on open A/B roads just so that motorists can pass you within inches without bothering to use any of the oncoming lane?

Cab · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Tynan

some people are so sctahing about bad drivers but seem to not consider that cyclists are subject to the same highway code

due care and consideration to other road users, making reasonable progress and so on, I'm still surprised at some of the primary zealots, I do use it a lot when there's a reason to but secondary is the correct place to be if there's no good reason to be in primary imho
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Wrong way round. The safest default location is primary, you're more visible, and the absolute greatest courtesy you can pay to other road users is to be in a place where you're most visible and least likely to be hit.

Free baby elephants for every citizen
Vote Arch for Prime Minister

Tynancp · June 2007

I ride as wide as I see fit, if it's a bad stretch of road of course I'll ride wider

potholes out in the middle too

My issue is with your statement that you do it always, I consider that to be showing a lack of consideration for other road users, we'd all go ballistic if a car drove too close to the curb to let us pass on the inside

again, I do plenty but not without reason, you'd have to be very quick to be able to ride primary all journey without holding up other vehicles

Cab · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Tynan

I ride as wide as I see fit, if it's a bad stretch of road of course I'll ride wider

potholes out in the middle too
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If you're by the kerb then to get past any debris, peds who step out or potholes you have to swerve outwards. If you're in primary position you can choose to swerve inwards. The latter is safer.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
My issue is with your statement that you do it always, I consider that to be showing a lack of consideration for other road users, we'd all go ballistic if a car drove too close to the curb to let us pass on the inside
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I can't speak for anyone else, but primary is my default location. Its the safest and most visible place to be, the highway code is absolutely clear about how to overtake and if other road users are obeying that code then I'm no inconvenience to them. If I find I'm holding other road users up I'll look for a safe place to let them past by pulling into secondary, then I'll re-claim primary. I wouldn't go ballistic if motorists kept close to the kerb (some do), I'll simply go around their outside.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
again, I do plenty but not without reason, you'd have to be very quick to be able to ride primary all journey without holding up other vehicles
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It is not your duty to never hold up other vehicles, it is your duty to not hold them up more than is necessary to make safe and reasonable progress along the road. Any motorist who believes that you should take a less safe road position to let them past is not fit to be behind the wheel.

Free baby elephants for every citizen
Vote Arch for Prime Minister

Eat My Dust · June 2007

If you were to ride in the primary position all the way on my commute, I have no doubt someone would run you off the road on the first day. Please don't tell me you ride in a primary position on roads where drivers are doing 50mph+, that seems suicidal!!

SNAPS

Tynancp · June 2007

I very rarely swerve around a potholes I'm sure you don't cab, forward planning is the thing isn't it

and secondary is three feet wide isn't it?

I'd love to see you lot on a journey, I can't understand your arguments, I simply can't believe them, with all respect, you;re either very very fast riders or you have a very suitable route

Cab · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Eat My Dust

If you were to ride in the primary position all the way on my commute, I have no doubt someone would run you off the road on the first day. Please don't tell me you ride in a primary position on roads where drivers are doing 50mph+, that seems suicidal!!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Like I've always said, its my default position but it depends on the road and conditions. There are some roads where drivers are doing that speed and the visibility is good where I'd be in primary, others where the visibility is bad where I'd be in seconary.

Free baby elephants for every citizen
Vote Arch for Prime Minister

Cab · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Tynan

I very rarely swerve around a potholes I'm sure you don't cab, forward planning is the thing isn't it
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I can often have to move about on the road to avoid potholes, although I obviously try to avoid any sudden swerves. There are some cycle lanes I stay completely outside because the surface in them is outrageous, and there are some thumping great potholes on my regular routes that are distributed on the road such that you have to swerve one or more of them.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
and secondary is three feet wide isn't it?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Secondary ends about eight inches to the right of you. Thats how close cars will pass if they don't have to really pull out to go around you. Primary is all about being in a position such that anyone wanting past has to actively overtake you, rather than simply contine without much moving.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
I'd love to see you lot on a journey, I can't understand your arguments, I simply can't believe them, with all respect, you;re either very very fast riders or you have a very suitable route
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Not that fast on my normal journeys. Doubt I got above 22mph today. My route is very suitable for primary position; lots of traffic, lots of 'traffic calming', plenty of traffic islands, longer roads where people want to overtake dangerously, etc.

Free baby elephants for every citizen
Vote Arch for Prime Minister

mazcp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by domtyler

I thought this post was going to be about leaving a spare pair of pants at work.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You've made the classic error of confusing 'primary pants' with 'secondary pants'.

Primary Pants?

Comments

Categories