Upper limits
domtyler
Posts: 2,648
Bit of a weird question, but here goes...
When you are going all out, right at your limit, what is stopping you from carrying on, longer or faster?
Is it a mind over matter thing. I know there is pain involved but is it possible to overcome this? I guess what I am trying to say is are the limits psychological or physiological? And what would happen if you could overcome them and just keep pushing past the point where your body or brain is telling you to stop?
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Porridge not Petrol
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Fuck
When you are going all out, right at your limit, what is stopping you from carrying on, longer or faster?
Is it a mind over matter thing. I know there is pain involved but is it possible to overcome this? I guess what I am trying to say is are the limits psychological or physiological? And what would happen if you could overcome them and just keep pushing past the point where your body or brain is telling you to stop?
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Porridge not Petrol
________
Fuck
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Porridge not Petrol
Porridge not Petrol
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Comments
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The reason the brain tells you to stop is either because you can't go any harder without injuring yourself.
I think the best example of this is when you hear stories of extra ordinary strength when people are in real danger. For example (heard this on CBBC a few years back) 2 little girls were playing at a farm when a tractor tyre fell on one of them. No one else was around to help and the little girl not trapped lifted the tyre off her friend. Now this is a seriously heavy tyre, and she just lifted it off.
It's your mind saying, screw the consequences this has to be done (another example would be the Scotsmans leap).
If you were to push beyond this bounday then undoubtedly you would go very very fast for a short period of time, then do incredible damage to yourself.
Pride speaks, but Elephants listen..."I hold it true, what'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost;
Than never to have loved at all."
Alfred Tennyson0 -
(beaten to it while I was editing... but nevertheless):
Interesting point, and I know what you mean, when you are cycling at what you think is your limit you can usually manage a smidge more when you try.
I suppose our limits are psychological based on knowing the limits of what the body can sustain without serious damage.
Randomly, but still related, but when you are thrown back by an electric shock, it's your own muscles responding that moves you like that. Under ordinary circumstances your brain won't let you break the rules, but involuntary reactions can do a heck of a lot more than voluntary ones.
Rules are meant to be broken, and all that
I suppose after a certain point the muscles would tear and you would fall off the bike, but I'd be surprised if anyone could get to that point...!0 -
It's a mixture of both the psychological and the physiological really.
From the psychological perspective there's a lot to be said for pain tolerance really, and carrying on even though it hurts like hell. There's certainly a lot of suffering in any sporting event from a kilo to the TDF. Some of the sport's greats may not have been the physiolocially most capable or gifted, but could carry on pushing themselves through the pain more than others.
Physiologically, there will be several different mechanisms that play a limiting factor. The fuel supply that you have is obviously limiting, so if you can't supply enough you will slow down significantly. However, even if you do carry on taking in fuel, you will still have to slow down, so clearly this isn't the only thing. At a muscular level if you are exercising maximally then you could be flooding the area with lactic acid, which although is recycled as fuel, is gonna hurt bad. There might be things like overstimulation of nerve endings and pain receptors.
The nervous system is maybe the more interesting in terms of fatigue. As you have to keep on repeatedly carrying out an activity it becomes fatigued like your muscles. Submaximally, the nerves that supply the muscles will switch between the groups of fibres to give them a little rest and make the muscle work more efficiently. At a max effort then hopefully all are recruited so this can't occur. As you become more fatigued though this process becomes less efficient, so you slow down. There is also evidence that the chemical messengers involved in transmitting the impulses from the nervous system to the muscles also become depleted, so the process becomes less efficient again, and more slowing. Finally, there are certain chemicals released in the brain that cause feelings of fatigue and tiredness causing you to slow.
The psychological all links in with overiding these signals for as long as possible.
In terms of why and what would happen if you could carry on fully then you'd be into the realm of damaging your own body. Many of these act as defence mechansims to stop your body's internal environment going too much out of kilter that it will begin to effect other processes. Eg. body heat rising too high effecting enzyme function, or hydrogen ions causing too acidic conditions in the blood.
If you can push through you may well end up blacking out as your body has to try and stop you carrying on. In more extreme cases where you may be using artifical means to block these signals then more serious consequences may occur. Think of Tom Simpson's use of amphetamines allowing him to carry on that little further than he should of on the Ventoux...
"The trouble is, all year I haven't had the ability to go faster than possible" - Chris Boardman.0 -
Nolf, it's quite interesting this kind of thing, and there are many examples of 'ordinary' folk performing extraordinary feats of strength in circumstances like this.
As the central nervous system controls how much of a muscle is used for a certain task then in untrained folk it's not very efficient. Much of the strength gains in weight training, at least initially, are from improvements in efficiency of recruiting muscle fibres, rather than pure muscular changes. However, in extreme circumstances like this it's more difficult to say as these kind of conitions are not easily reproduced. There is clearly some kind of more basic overide mechanism though.
seventy2, the example of electric shocks and things of the same ilk like touching something hot or stepping on a pin, don't actually involve any brain processing at all. The massive stimulation of the sensory receptors causes a reflex action very quickly that is integrated in the spinal cord, with activation of muscles to move the limb out of the way. It's only after you tend to feel the pain once it's had time to reach the brain.
Fantasic thing the human body.
"The trouble is, all year I haven't had the ability to go faster than possible" - Chris Boardman.0 -
Not my particular area of physiology so am just theorising a little based on general principles, so no references off top of the head. I'll see if I can dig any up.
However, you do see riders collapsing on the line in summit finishes so it there could be some basis to it. Also IIRC Arnold Taurnant (spelling?) blacked out after the world kilo record in Bolivia, and Graeame O'Bree used to cough up blood sometimes after 4k pursuits as he had damaged the tiny blood vessels in his lungs. Now there's a man who knows about pushing yourself to the limit...
"The trouble is, all year I haven't had the ability to go faster than possible" - Chris Boardman.0 -
From some conclusions from papers on triathlons and fell running:
"Conclusion Myocardial damage occurs during intense ultra-endurance exercise and, in particular, there is a significant reduction in RV function. Almost all abnormalities resolve within 1 week."
"CONCLUSIONS: Ironman and half-Ironman competition resulted in reversible abnormalities in resting left ventricular diastolic and systolic function. Results suggest that myocardial damage may be, in part, responsible for cardiac dysfunction, although the mechanisms responsible for this cardiac damage remain to be fully elucidated."
"Two days arduous exercise over mountainous terrain resulted in cardiac dysfunction, and significant skeletal muscular degradation"
Certainly seems to be causing changes to cardiac function, albeit reversable.
"The trouble is, all year I haven't had the ability to go faster than possible" - Chris Boardman.0 -
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Wot stops me is simple. I cant breath any faster or push any harder. :-)
"People setting the pace too fast on the front are abused to slow down. Riders that do not share the work are abused. Riders that need abuse get abused and the abuse is done in every language so they get the message"0
