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Impact of speeding on wildlife

ACcpACcp Posts: 655
edited July 2007 in Campaign
Thought this was deserving of a wider audience than it may get in a Road Tax debate....

I asked Cretin the following question (apologies for not being able to link / paste properly): -

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Can you tell me how one can safely speed without increasing the dangers to wildlife compared to staying within speed limits?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

This was the response: -
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
I couldn't care less about wildlife. If it appears I'll try and avoid it. If it runs out in front of me, that could be at any time and at any speed and it isn't going to be pretty.

Tell me, what measures do you undertake to avoid swallowing flies while riding? How can you reduce the danger to insects while riding? And what makes insects less important than sheep or deer?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

A rather telling display of selfishness and ignorance really. Cretin demonstrates that constant speeder mentality that the lives of anything else on the road is less important than their personal needs and desires.

Finally, rather than get into the debate of the importance of flies versus sheep, I'd probably rather have a debate about which adds more value to our community and environment - speeders or sheep?

I don't eat newly created species of marine life, or even newly discovered species of marine life for that matter, but if I did eat any sort of marine life, I would use this guide: -www.fishonline.org/information/MCSPocket_Good_Fish_Guide.pdf
I don\'t eat newly created species of marine life, or even newly discovered species of marine life for that matter, but if I did eat any sort of marine life, I would use this guide: -www.fishonline.org/information/MCSPocket_Good_Fish_Guide.pdf
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Posts

  • CretinCretin Posts: 266
    Do you care about the wildlife displaced to build the factory that manufactured the computer you're using to access this forum? Do you care about the wildlife displaced by agriculture to feed you and your family?

    So what measures do you take to protect the flies you swallow while cycling, and the beetles you crush under your tyres? What about the insects that get caught in the hair on your arms/legs/head?

    Are they worth less than creatures with fur?

    What a stupid thread.
  • ArchcpArchcp Posts: 8,987
    Well, I take measures not to swallow flies if I can help it - keep my mouth shut as musch as possible, and especially if I can see lots of bugs in the air... I'll admit, more because I don't like eating them much, rather than for their welfare. As for avoiding running things, I try not to ride or drive faster than I can stop if I have to... (bad grammar, but you know what I mean). Same precautions as for avoiding people and other traffic.

    And I'd rather have most animals in the world than some of the humans I've met (for real, or here...) I'm a bit averse to wasps though.





    If I had a baby elephant, it could help me clean the car. If I had a car.
    If I had a baby elephant, it could help me clean the car. If I had a car.
  • CabCab Posts: 770
    Its a fair question though. And the answer is that (a) you kill very few bugs cycling, they normally bounce off, (b) you value the life of an insect less than that of a mammal, which is an accepted societal norm that carries on well into legal definitions of how you're allowed to treat animals, and (c) you minimise your impact on insect life by cycling rather than motoring; bugs bounce off you, they splat on windscreens.

    But to be honest, Cretin is missing your point. He's more likely to hit an animal at a higher speed, and he's more likely to kill it than just to wing it and leave it bruised (you'd be amazed by the kind of accidents sheep walk away from). Many walks along country roads will reveal the horrific toll on our wildlife caused by motoring.



    <i>Free baby elephants for every citizen</i>
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  • Rigid RaiderRigid Raider Posts: 1,568
    As the man says this is a pointless thread. If you hit any living creature at above about 10 mph you are likely to kill it. You would need to revert to having a man waving a red flag if you wanted to avoid killing anything and even then some idiot chav squirrel would dash between your spokes and get decapitated.

    If I was driving along at 30 mph and I had the choice between hitting a dog or swerving to avoid it and hitting another car or a child, I know what I would do.

    Global TH1.5 Ti hardtail.
    Global TH1.5 Ti hardtail.
  • JadedJaded Posts: 6,663
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cab</i>

    Many walks along country roads will reveal the horrific toll on our wildlife caused by motoring.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    You can see the roadkill on rides too. [:D]

    To be fair, it isn't motoring that causes the roadkill, it is the speed, lack of awareness and anticipation combined with the kind of total self-importance shown by Cretin.

    --
    <font size="1">[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one</font id="size1">
  • ACcpACcp Posts: 655
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rigid Raider</i>

    As the man says this is a pointless thread. If you hit any living creature at above about 10 mph you are likely to kill it. You would need to revert to having a man waving a red flag if you wanted to avoid killing anything and even then some idiot chav squirrel would dash between your spokes and get decapitated.

    If I was driving along at 30 mph and I had the choice between hitting a dog or swerving to avoid it and hitting another car or a child, I know what I would do.

    Global TH1.5 Ti hardtail.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Glad you saw fit to respond to a pointless thread then, hmmmm.

    The point that cretin is missing, is that one's behaviour has an impact on other people, wildlife and the environment. All people have a choice about how much effort they put into reducing that impact.
    In my opinion, the effort that speeding motorists put into reducing their impact is woefully inadequate. Their happiness to demonstrate that, indicates their worthlessness to society.


    I don't eat newly created species of marine life, or even newly discovered species of marine life for that matter, but if I did eat any sort of marine life, I would use this guide: -www.fishonline.org/information/MCSPocket_Good_Fish_Guide.pdf
    I don\'t eat newly created species of marine life, or even newly discovered species of marine life for that matter, but if I did eat any sort of marine life, I would use this guide: -www.fishonline.org/information/MCSPocket_Good_Fish_Guide.pdf
  • Rigid RaiderRigid Raider Posts: 1,568
    I'm normally politely reserved in my opinions but that, my friend, is sanctimonious intellectual onanism.

    Global TH1.5 Ti hardtail.
    Global TH1.5 Ti hardtail.
  • marinyorkmarinyork Posts: 271
    As cab says, walks along some country lanes do reveal the extent of things. I see pheasants, other birds and rabbits regularly strewn across a particular road I go on.

    I knew someone who once unintentionally hit a sheep at low speed and felt guilty about it for years afterwards. Seems in complete contrast to a few people like someone who ran over a goose a few months ago round here and was cursing and swearing that the thing had dared to stop the human exceeding the 15mph speed limit.
  • ACcpACcp Posts: 655
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rigid Raider</i>

    I'm normally politely reserved in my opinions but that, my friend, is sanctimonious intellectual onanism.

    Global TH1.5 Ti hardtail.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Well, we are all free to our opinions aren't we? Sounds like I value wildlife more than you do. That makes me a [email protected] does it?

    I don't eat newly created species of marine life, or even newly discovered species of marine life for that matter, but if I did eat any sort of marine life, I would use this guide: -www.fishonline.org/information/MCSPocket_Good_Fish_Guide.pdf
    I don\'t eat newly created species of marine life, or even newly discovered species of marine life for that matter, but if I did eat any sort of marine life, I would use this guide: -www.fishonline.org/information/MCSPocket_Good_Fish_Guide.pdf
  • CretinCretin Posts: 266
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jaded</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cab</i>

    Many walks along country roads will reveal the horrific toll on our wildlife caused by motoring.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    You can see the roadkill on rides too. [:D]

    To be fair, it isn't motoring that causes the roadkill, it is the speed, lack of awareness and anticipation combined with the kind of total self-importance shown by Cretin.

    --
    <font size="1">[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one</font id="size1">
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I thought I was supposed to be the troll here. Inventing more things Jaded? You're getting desperate aren't you?
  • CretinCretin Posts: 266
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by AC</i>
    The point that cretin is missing, is that one's behaviour has an impact on other people, wildlife and the environment. All people have a choice about how much effort they put into reducing that impact.
    In my opinion, the effort that speeding motorists put into reducing their impact is woefully inadequate. Their happiness to demonstrate that, indicates their worthlessness to society.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I haven't missed the point - you have. I'm not going to mercilessly mow down any wildlife, but I'm not going to drive at a snail's pace to avoid the risk. If I'm doing 30mph and a squirrel darts under my wheel from 10 feet away, theres nothing I can do. If I'm doing 60mph and it darts under my wheel from 30 feet away, again theres nothing I can do.

    If I'm driving over the moors and there are sheep bordering the road, then I'll be more careful. I don't want to hurt a sheep, and I don't want to pay for the damage to my car either.

    I have had 2 cats killed when they ran out into the road and were run down by cars. It isn't nice, but I'm not going to blame the people driving those cars as there isn't much they can do to avoid it.

    It really isn't difficult to comprehend is it? A good driver always anticipates the possible hazards ahead, but he cannot be expected to avoid the unavoidable.

    You enjoy a lifestyle built on an economy that relies on manufacturing to exist. Your job, your home, everything you own has been built from materials that nature provides - that means that your consumption has a pretty negative impact on the environment around you. Look in your home and ask yourself what you really need to survive, and what are mere extravangences. Ask yourself how many forests were cut down, how many animals had their habitat destroyed to provide those items for you - and then come back to me and justify your argument that I'm being selfish.

    As I've said, its a stupid argument.
  • Joe SaccoJoe Sacco Posts: 4,907
    If you really care about animals you don't kill them to eat them. A much bigger impact than killing them on the road. A road kill is accidental, a steak for your dinner is 100% intentional. You may or may not avoid a roadkill if you drive more slowly but you can definitely avoid eating them!
  • JadedJaded Posts: 6,663
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cretin</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jaded</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cab</i>

    Many walks along country roads will reveal the horrific toll on our wildlife caused by motoring.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    You can see the roadkill on rides too. [:D]

    To be fair, it isn't motoring that causes the roadkill, it is the speed, lack of awareness and anticipation combined with the kind of total self-importance shown by Cretin.

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I thought I was supposed to be the troll here. Inventing more things Jaded? You're getting desperate aren't you?
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cretin</i>

    <b>I couldn't care less about wildlife.</b> If it appears I'll try and avoid it. If it runs out in front of me, that could be at any time and at any speed and it isn't going to be pretty.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    My bold. Self importance highlighted. Not inventetd (unless you made it up!)

    --
    <font size="1">[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one</font id="size1">
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Joe Sacco</i>
    You may or may not avoid a roadkill if you drive more slowly but you can definitely avoid eating them!
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    It would be a shame to waste them though, especially if it was a deer or similar! Not sure about squirrels, badgers, foxes and the other usual suspects though.
  • CabCab Posts: 770
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cretin</i>

    Do you care about the wildlife displaced to build the factory that manufactured the computer you're using to access this forum? Do you care about the wildlife displaced by agriculture to feed you and your family?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Yes, and yes. As a result of that I reuse and recycle as much electrical equipment as I feasibly can, and I only possess a computer for work reasons. Can't help that. Oh, and I eat meat that has been grazed locally, on grass, and wild animals that led a good life till they died as quickly as can be managed. The rest of my diet is mostly home grown and wild foraged vegetables and fruit, as well as bulk purchased grains, flour, that kind of thing. My alcohol consumption is minimal, but what I do drink is, for the most part, home brewed.

    How about you? What steps are you doing to minimise your environmental impact and your impact on wild habitats?

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
    So what measures do you take to protect the flies you swallow while cycling, and the beetles you crush under your tyres? What about the insects that get caught in the hair on your arms/legs/head?
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Depends what kind of bug. If I find an aphid on me I crush it. If I find a ladybird on me I let it go. I try not to swallow bugs, its unpleasant, and I try not to run over them because theres just no point to it.

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
    Are they worth less than creatures with fur?
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Yes. Morally, legally, and in all social contexts, yes, they are worth less than vertebrates. You know it, I know it, we all know it. From an absolutist vegan standpoint maybe that isn't true, but I'm no vegan.

    What are you doing to minimise your environmental impact, the risk you pose to wild animals and of course the damage your lifestyle may be doing to habitats?




    <i>Free baby elephants for every citizen</i>
    Vote Arch for Prime Minister
  • CabCab Posts: 770
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Joe Sacco</i>

    If you really care about animals you don't kill them to eat them. A much bigger impact than killing them on the road. A road kill is accidental, a steak for your dinner is 100% intentional. You may or may not avoid a roadkill if you drive more slowly but you can definitely avoid eating them!
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I eat steak <i>because</i> I care about animals. I care that they're well raised, I care that rare breeds are maintained and preserved, I care that they've had a good life, I care that traditional the fields they're grazing are protected. So when I buy beef I buy with all of those things in mind, and if I couldn't buy beef that fulfilled all those criteria then I wouldn't buy beef.

    An ethical carnivore demonstrably cares about animal welfare as much as and often more than any vegan, IMHO.



    <i>Free baby elephants for every citizen</i>
    Vote Arch for Prime Minister
  • CabCab Posts: 770
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cretin</i>
    I haven't missed the point - ...

    (cut)

    You enjoy a lifestyle built on an economy that relies on manufacturing to exist. Your job, your home, everything you own has been built from materials that nature provides - that means that your consumption has a pretty negative impact on the environment around you.

    (cut)

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    That each living thing impacts in some ways on other living things, and many of the impacts of the lifestyles we choose can be negative, you're right. But you're still missing the point; that we often have a negative impact on the environment does not excuse us from choosing a mode of living (be it transport, how you shop, what you wear, etc.) which needlessly increases the amount of damage we cause. That even with our best efforts we're still far from perfect does not excuse is from trying, your conclusion there is absolutely flawed.



    <i>Free baby elephants for every citizen</i>
    Vote Arch for Prime Minister
  • Cab, don't do it!

    You'll just end up very frustrated after being accused of murder and generally being an uncaring person worthy of nothing but contempt!
  • CabCab Posts: 770
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Peyote</i>
    It would be a shame to waste them though, especially if it was a deer or similar! Not sure about squirrels, badgers, foxes and the other usual suspects though.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Deer has to be gutted quite soon after slaughter, and if its innards are churned and have got into the meat then it can be quite dangerous and unpleasant fare. So be very, very careful with roadkill deer.

    Squirrel, if its intact, is a very tasty creature to eat. censored to skin though.

    Of the other usual suspects, many of them are good if you get 'em fresh and mostly undamaged. Pheasant, rabbit, hare... If you're cautious and know what you're doing, you might have the occasional lucky find.



    <i>Free baby elephants for every citizen</i>
    Vote Arch for Prime Minister
  • CabCab Posts: 770
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Peyote</i>

    Cab, don't do it!

    You'll just end up very frustrated after being accused of murder and generally being an uncaring person worthy of nothing but contempt!
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Yah wer? Eh?

    Excuse me, I haven't followed everything here in soapbox. Murder? Uncaring? What?



    <i>Free baby elephants for every citizen</i>
    Vote Arch for Prime Minister
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cab</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Peyote</i>

    Cab, don't do it!

    You'll just end up very frustrated after being accused of murder and generally being an uncaring person worthy of nothing but contempt!
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Yah wer? Eh?

    Excuse me, I haven't followed everything here in soapbox. Murder? Uncaring? What?

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Sorry, I assumed you were aware of Joe's vegetarian views. Militant would probably be an understatement. I think the underpinning basis is that anyone who kills animals is a murderer (or I guess an 'Accessory' if they don't actually hold the rifle, bolt gun or blade) because, essentially they are only killing because they like the taste of meat.

    Makes for an interesting argument though!

    PS - Cheers for the roadkill info, I'll try and put it to good use...
  • ACcpACcp Posts: 655
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cretin</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by AC</i>
    The point that cretin is missing, is that one's behaviour has an impact on other people, wildlife and the environment. All people have a choice about how much effort they put into reducing that impact.
    In my opinion, the effort that speeding motorists put into reducing their impact is woefully inadequate. Their happiness to demonstrate that, indicates their worthlessness to society.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I haven't missed the point - you have. I'm not going to mercilessly mow down any wildlife, but I'm not going to drive at a snail's pace to avoid the risk. If I'm doing <b>30mph</b> and a squirrel darts under my wheel from <b>10 feet </b>away, theres nothing I can do. If I'm doing <b>60mph</b> and it darts under my wheel from <b>30 feet </b>away, again theres nothing I can do.

    It really isn't difficult to comprehend is it? A good driver always anticipates the possible hazards ahead, but he cannot be expected to avoid the unavoidable.

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Ignoring some of the other points you made, let's just have a slightly more professional 'design of experiment' shall we?

    Consider these two examples where just one variable changes, namely speed.

    1. A squirrel runs out from 30 feet away and you are doing 30 mph.
    2. A squirrel runs out from 30 feet away and you are doing 60 mph.

    In which of these does the squirrel have more chance of survival, all other things being equal?

    I don't eat newly created species of marine life, or even newly discovered species of marine life for that matter, but if I did eat any sort of marine life, I would use this guide: -www.fishonline.org/information/MCSPocket_Good_Fish_Guide.pdf
    I don\'t eat newly created species of marine life, or even newly discovered species of marine life for that matter, but if I did eat any sort of marine life, I would use this guide: -www.fishonline.org/information/MCSPocket_Good_Fish_Guide.pdf
  • JadedJaded Posts: 6,663
    Cretin,

    As well as stopping distance (which you don't seem to fully understand) you also need to take into account the ability of the animal to react to a speeding predator. A squirrel is unlikely to be faced with a 30mph predator, and will never come up against a 60mph one unless the squirrel is on holiday in Etosha.

    A squirrel's natural reactions will almost certainly get it away from a 18mph bicycle.
    A squirrel's natural reactions will probably get it away from a 30mph car.
    A squirrel has almost no chance with a 60mph car driven by someone who "couldn't care less about wildlife".

    --
    <font size="1">[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one</font id="size1">
  • Joe SaccoJoe Sacco Posts: 4,907
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cab</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Joe Sacco</i>

    If you really care about animals you don't kill them to eat them. A much bigger impact than killing them on the road. A road kill is accidental, a steak for your dinner is 100% intentional. You may or may not avoid a roadkill if you drive more slowly but you can definitely avoid eating them!
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I eat steak <i>because</i> I care about animals. I care that they're well raised, I care that rare breeds are maintained and preserved, I care that they've had a good life, I care that traditional the fields they're grazing are protected. So when I buy beef I buy with all of those things in mind, and if I couldn't buy beef that fulfilled all those criteria then I wouldn't buy beef.

    An ethical carnivore demonstrably cares about animal welfare as much as and often more than any vegan, IMHO.



    <i>Free baby elephants for every citizen</i>
    Vote Arch for Prime Minister
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    The best solution I could hope for is to have 100% of meat eaters with the same view as yourself. However the 99%+ that don't give a t0ss where their meat comes from means this is never going to happen.

    What I was getting at was why someone should be that bothered about an accidental death when millions of intentional deaths are caused each day to keep up the meat industry.
  • CabCab Posts: 770
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Joe Sacco</i>
    The best solution I could hope for is to have 100% of meat eaters with the same view as yourself. However the 99%+ that don't give a t0ss where their meat comes from means this is never going to happen.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Well, I'm a little bit more optimistic than you. Our local butcher now stocks an excellent range of happy meat, and small scale providers of quality, ethically reared produce are doing better now than they have in years. But you're right in that we've still got a heck of a long way to go.

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
    What I was getting at was why someone should be that bothered about an accidental death when millions of intentional deaths are caused each day to keep up the meat industry.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I can quite see that if someone, say, keeps shovelling factory farmed poultry down their gullet then they're missing the point when they point at the impact of roadkill. But then again, the cruelty of one does not excuse the avoidable, futile roadkill deaths associated with driving excessively or rather too fast. I'd say that both issues are probably worth some introspection.



    <i>Free baby elephants for every citizen</i>
    Vote Arch for Prime Minister
  • ACcpACcp Posts: 655
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Joe Sacco</i>
    The best solution I could hope for is to have 100% of meat eaters with the same view as yourself. However the 99%+ that don't give a t0ss where their meat comes from means this is never going to happen.

    What I was getting at was why someone should be that bothered about an accidental death when millions of intentional deaths are caused each day to keep up the meat industry.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Surely I am allowed to be bothered by both of them? Plus, they aren't totally exclusive. I can see how all combinations of "meat eaters" / "not meat eater" and "bothered about wildlife killed by cars" / "not bothered about wildlife killed by cars".

    Even on this very thread we appear to have a member of each subset: -

    Cretin appears to be a meat eater not bothered
    Cab is a meat eater and bothered
    Joe is a non meat eater and not bothered,
    and I'm a non meat eater and bothered.

    What a bit of luck, eh?



    I don't eat newly created species of marine life, or even newly discovered species of marine life for that matter, but if I did eat any sort of marine life, I would use this guide: -www.fishonline.org/information/MCSPocket_Good_Fish_Guide.pdf
    I don\'t eat newly created species of marine life, or even newly discovered species of marine life for that matter, but if I did eat any sort of marine life, I would use this guide: -www.fishonline.org/information/MCSPocket_Good_Fish_Guide.pdf
  • Joe SaccoJoe Sacco Posts: 4,907
    AC, where did I say I wasn't bothered? I have never hit an animal whilst driving but if I did I wouldn't be happy about it.

    Yes, you are allowed to be bothered by both. Sorry, forgot you started the thread!
  • CretinCretin Posts: 266
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cab</i>
    Yes, and yes. As a result of that I reuse and recycle as much electrical equipment as I feasibly can, and I only possess a computer for work reasons. Can't help that. Oh, and I eat meat that has been grazed locally, on grass, and wild animals that led a good life till they died as quickly as can be managed. The rest of my diet is mostly home grown and wild foraged vegetables and fruit, as well as bulk purchased grains, flour, that kind of thing. My alcohol consumption is minimal, but what I do drink is, for the most part, home brewed.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    If your computer is for work reasons, then what element of your work requires that you post here? You're using up energy, wasting it. Think of the damage done to local wildlife by those trucks and trains transporting the fuel to and from the power stations.

    You're using agriculture for your food? You mean that you're buying from farms that use land formerly the province of wolves, bears, birds, insects, trees, fish, etc? How selfish of you. Why don't you forage for your own food then? How come you're not right now trapesing around the local woods hunting for roots, berries, crickets and wild mushrooms?

    How dare you buy food from farmland. How uncaring of you. Think of the wildlife displaced by that field from which you're getting your grains. You simply don't care do you! Just think of the hundreds of dormice and rabbits chopped to pieces by the combine harvestor that provides you with your flour and wheat. You <b>murderer!</b>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cab</i>
    How about you? What steps are you doing to minimise your environmental impact and your impact on wild habitats?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Not a lot. In fact not much at all. I buy tasty food, drive nice cars, and don't chuck litter away. Thats about it. I'm quite happy with that.

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cab</i>
    Depends what kind of bug. If I find an aphid on me I crush it. If I find a ladybird on me I let it go. I try not to swallow bugs, its unpleasant, and I try not to run over them because theres just no point to it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Shocking. So you brazenly admit to not caring about aphids. Disgusting. And I thought I was the bad person, but it turns out that you discriminate against insects. Whatever did they do to you? You're an specieist!

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cab</i>

    Yes. Morally, legally, and in all social contexts, yes, they are worth less than vertebrates. You know it, I know it, we all know it. From an absolutist vegan standpoint maybe that isn't true, but I'm no vegan.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Sorry, why are they worth less? Because they're smaller? Because they don't have Bambi eyes? Because you can't stroke them, or because they're not part of old MacDonald's farm?


    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cab</i>
    What are you doing to minimise your environmental impact, the risk you pose to wild animals and of course the damage your lifestyle may be doing to habitats?
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I burn wood and coal in my fireplace. I drive a car with a 3 litre diesel engine. Before that I drove a TVR with a 4 litre engine, and I'm saving for another one right now. I don't pose a risk to wild animals - they pose a risk to me. As you've already said, insects are worth less than sheep, well I'm at the top of the food chain so sheep are worth less than me - and they're certainly worth less than my car. As for habitats, I don't recycle anything but food in my composter. Everything else goes into the bin.
  • CretinCretin Posts: 266
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cab</i>
    That each living thing impacts in some ways on other living things, and many of the impacts of the lifestyles we choose can be negative, you're right. But you're still missing the point; that we often have a negative impact on the environment does not excuse us from choosing a mode of living (be it transport, how you shop, what you wear, etc.) which needlessly increases the amount of damage we cause. That even with our best efforts we're still far from perfect does not excuse is from trying, your conclusion there is absolutely flawed.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Rubbish. You're saying I'm irresponsible for my lifestyle choices, while defending your own. I'm saying your own choices make your critisism of mine hypocritical.

    You have no right to critisise my life without first ensuring that your own life does no damage whatsoever - and the fact that you're here, posting for fun on this forum, sat in a home using electricity and gas filled to the brim with plastic and metal objects, means that you're actually doing a fair amount of damage.

    Sort your own house out sir, before critisising others.
  • Joe SaccoJoe Sacco Posts: 4,907
    From where I am sitting I would argue that a sheep is worth much more than you cretin.
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