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Giro bizarre blood values

edited June 2007 in Pro race
Here we go again

http://www.cycling4all.com/d_news.php

Not positives, but "so negative it's not natural"
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Posts

  • yenrodcpyenrodcp Posts: 9,991
    What can you say....

    [;)] 'tuono nel mio cuore...[:)]
    [;)] \'tuono nel mio cuore...[:)]
  • TheBigOneTheBigOne Posts: 99
    EPO - Old news.
    Test. - Old news.
    Roids - Old News.
    Blood Transfusing - Old news.
    Blood Doping - Old news.

    Blood Manipulation - The latest fad.

    Dopers - 1.
    Testers - 0.
  • oily sailoroily sailor Posts: 235
    The two Saunier lads were so evasive in that interview in last month's ProCycling, slating Millar for making a song and dance about anti-doping.

    I'm sure it's all an innocent mistake eh?
  • wasp707wasp707 Posts: 116
    I would like to see a situation where riders have to be accountable for spurious blood test results regardless of whether drugs are detected or not. This kind of thing is indicative of drug taking or use of masking agents.
  • squiredcpsquiredcp Posts: 964
    Presumably, if they were riding for T-mobile they would be suspended and potentially fired. It would be the same with CSC I imagine. Whethere anything happens with them or not I think this is a good example of why the way to go is for all teams to do something along the lines of T-Mobile, CSC, and Slipstream.
  • EurostarEurostar Posts: 1,806
    For some stupid reason I thought Simoni might be clean. How naive of me. I hope he gets barred from the Tour.
    <hr>
    <h6>What\'s the point of going out? We\'re just going to end up back here anyway</h6>
  • Perhaps all pro's should have to take a substance which will show up in tests yet doesn't really do anything. Then if it doesn't show up in the test, alarm bells should be ringing?
  • kavcpkavcp Posts: 101
    When I frist read that Iain, I thought "the world has gone mad" then on reflection I thought "good idea". My sympathy for the riders is wearing thin, and it is about time they woke up to the changing landscape around them.

    It'd be good if the riders' blood tests were published in the public domain too. Transparency is the order of the day.
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Eurostar</i>

    For some stupid reason I thought Simoni might be clean. How naive of me. I hope he gets barred from the Tour.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Simoni was never intending to do the Tour. But I agree with the sentiment [:)]
  • Keith OatesKeith Oates Posts: 22,036
    Let's wait and see how it turns out before passing judgement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Ride Daily, Keep Healthy

    Ride Daily, Keep Healthy
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Keith Oates</i>

    Let's wait and see how it turns out before passing judgement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Hormone levels of world class cyclists during the Tour of Spain stage race - "Both morning and evening aMT6s levels decreased significantly during the study. A similar pattern was observed for morning serum levels of cortisol and testosterone."

    http://bjsm.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstrac ... type=HWCIT



    cyclingfever.com/
    cyclingfever.com/
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Hormone levels of world class cyclists during the Tour of Spain stage race<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Problem is, were the "world class cyclists" they studied clean in the first place?
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by BenR</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Hormone levels of world class cyclists during the Tour of Spain stage race<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Problem is, were the "world class cyclists" they studied clean in the first place?
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    There's a difference between hormone levels decreasing and those hormones being completely indetectable surely?

    Did you get planning permission for that sense of humour bypass?
  • Simoni to sign Uci-charter

    http://www.saunierduvalteam.com/cycling ... 2752163313

    cyclingfever.com/
    cyclingfever.com/
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by lucybears</i>

    Simoni to sign Uci-charter

    http://www.saunierduvalteam.com/cycling ... 2752163313

    cyclingfever.com/
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Bully for him. What does that change? If he's willing to cheat, then he'll be willing to lie.


    There is a MASSIVE difference in having decreased hormonal levels and having levels so low that they match those of a pre-pubescent kid.

    Although I don't agree with trial by press, if the statements made are true it looks very suspicious for the riders involved.

    TdG
  • afx237viafx237vi Posts: 12,630
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Timoid</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by lucybears</i>

    Simoni to sign Uci-charter

    http://www.saunierduvalteam.com/cycling ... 2752163313

    cyclingfever.com/
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Bully for him. What does that change? If he's willing to cheat, then he'll be willing to lie.

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Same could be said of anyone. Why should we believe that Millar's new holier-than-thou attitude is legit? Why does everyone now seem to laud T-Mobile and CSC as the posterboys for clean cycling... because they tell us they're clean? Why should we believe it when Riis and Aldag are still in charge?
  • What does that change?

    The change is that the riders have to put the money where their mouthes are...

    In order to confirm their commitment, riders signing the declaration agree to pay an amount equal to their annual salary for 2007 to the UCI's anti-doping campaign if they break their pledge.

    cyclingfever.com/
    cyclingfever.com/
  • HoullierHoullier Posts: 1,253
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by lucybears</i>

    What does that change?

    The change is that the riders have to put the money where their mouthes are...

    In order to confirm their commitment, riders signing the declaration agree to pay an amount equal to their annual salary for 2007 to the UCI's anti-doping campaign if they break their pledge.

    cyclingfever.com/
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I'd sign it too if I had the blood values of a virgin child

    ---\*/
    ----?
    ----/>'
    --(+)(+)
    You'll never ride alone
    ---\*/
    ----?
    ----/>\'
    --(+)(+)
    You\'ll never ride alone
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by afx237vi</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Timoid</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by lucybears</i>

    Simoni to sign Uci-charter

    http://www.saunierduvalteam.com/cycling ... 2752163313

    cyclingfever.com/
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Bully for him. What does that change? If he's willing to cheat, then he'll be willing to lie.

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Same could be said of anyone. Why should we believe that Millar's new holier-than-thou attitude is legit? Why does everyone now seem to laud T-Mobile and CSC as the posterboys for clean cycling... because they tell us they're clean? Why should we believe it when Riis and Aldag are still in charge?
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I don't really believe Millar. I think the boy has issues and lives in denial. Maybe not doping, but certainly turning a blind eye to his teammates practices.

    T-Mobile I believe, but that could be naivity (spelling), but CSC I take with a bit of a pinch of salt. I still think there is something funny with the team and wonder how surprised their riders are when the Danish University doctors come calling.

    Simoni himself has history (and I don't just mean the charlie incident) and though I applaud him as a gutsy rider I've never thought of him as clean. Just personal opinion.

    TdG
  • So how exactly do you reduce your hormone levels? How does it work? What other physiological parameters would this change?



    Self confessed King of The Mole Hill
    Self confessed King of The Mole Hill
  • To be fair Millar has openly criticized the antidoping measures in place at Saunier Duval: something that Ricco and Simoni seemed not too pleased about in last month's procycling
  • DaveyLDaveyL Posts: 5,167
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by lucybears</i>



    Hormone levels of world class cyclists during the Tour of Spain stage race - "Both morning and evening aMT6s levels decreased significantly during the study. A similar pattern was observed for morning serum levels of cortisol and testosterone."

    http://tinyurl.com/2t4ngx



    cyclingfever.com/
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Then all the riders should be in the same boat, but these guys stand out. The scientists reporting this study also noted that riders with a heavy racing load leading up to the Vuelta had decreased testosterone levels. Perhaps an excuse for these guys. Well, maybe for Ricco. The others would, I imagine, have rested up before the Giro (but it'd be easy to check). It all seems suspicious to me.

    PS tinyurl is a wonderful thing....
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • afx237viafx237vi Posts: 12,630
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by DaveyL</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by lucybears</i>



    Hormone levels of world class cyclists during the Tour of Spain stage race - "Both morning and evening aMT6s levels decreased significantly during the study. A similar pattern was observed for morning serum levels of cortisol and testosterone."

    http://tinyurl.com/2t4ngx



    cyclingfever.com/
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Then all the riders should be in the same boat, but these guys stand out. The scientists reporting this study also noted that riders with a heavy racing load leading up to the Vuelta had decreased testosterone levels. Perhaps an excuse for these guys. Well, maybe for Ricco. The others would, I imagine, have rested up before the Giro <b>(but it'd be easy to check)</b>. It all seems suspicious to me.

    PS tinyurl is a wonderful thing....
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Yeah but who can be bothered with facts these days? Just print a couple of accusations in a newspaper, and wahey, off we go again.
  • DaveyLDaveyL Posts: 5,167
    Someone more fastidious than me can go check up, but I would not expect Di Luca and Simoni, GC contenders both, to have a lot of racing days leading up to the Giro (I'm talking about the couple of weeks preceding the start). Seems an extremely reasonable assumption, as far as assumptions go...
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • eheh Posts: 4,854
    How close do you want? Di Luca won L-B-L on 29th April and the Giro started on 12th May. Further Ricco, Simoni and Cunago were all in the top 25 at L-B-L with Andy Schleck a bit further back. So they were all racing hard before the Giro. Now I don't think many on here are going to be qualified enough to interpert the data and take into account things like L-B-L, so anything will just be speculation.
  • DaveyLDaveyL Posts: 5,167
    Seems like a bit of a redundancy to point out that anyone commenting on this story on this forum is just speculating...
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • DaveyLDaveyL Posts: 5,167
    PS in the study quoted by lucybears, the testosterone levels fell from initial values of 5 ng/ml to 3 ng/ml in the final two weeks of the Vuleta. The report seems to indicate the testosterone levels were *much* lower than that; 'Too negative, never the values were so low", was the reaction of several endocrinologists, who were carrying out the tests. "This looks like the results of children before their adolescence, but certainly not of those of cyclists with a body in full maturity"

    lucybears' post, and those others defending the riders, are just as speculative as those taking the opposite view.
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by DaveyL</i>
    lucybears' post, and those others defending the riders, are just as speculative as those taking the opposite view.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    lucybears post is NOT speculative. The post containing the study link qouted the study ONLY. The post saying that Simoni will sign the UCI charter simply reported what the Saunier website contained. If Simoni does sign, "The change is that the riders have to put the money where their mouthes are...", is fact, not speculation. lucybears does not give any opinion on, or imply, the guilt or innocence of Simoni or any other rider. More qualified people than lucybears will (eventually) decide upon that. However, lucybears DOES speculate that they will also be more qualified than the other posters here....

    cyclingfever.com/
    cyclingfever.com/
  • DaveyLDaveyL Posts: 5,167
    Implying they might be innocent is speculation since we don't know for sure right now. If that was not what you were inferring when quoting that study, then I apologise for mis-interpreting your post.

    For what it's worth I'm not saying anyone's guilty, just that it looks suspicious if the levels really were as low as the quote in my above post (and the original link) suggests. Then again, who knows what a specific stage like the Zoncolan one would do to a rider. We need to see how it affected the levels of all the other riders to be able to comment conclusively.
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by lucybears</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by DaveyL</i>
    lucybears' post, and those others defending the riders, are just as speculative as those taking the opposite view.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    lucybears post is NOT speculative. The post containing the study link qouted the study ONLY. The post saying that Simoni will sign the UCI charter simply reported what the Saunier website contained. If Simoni does sign, "The change is that the riders have to put the money where their mouthes are...", is fact, not speculation. lucybears does not give any opinion on, or imply, the guilt or innocence of Simoni or any other rider. More qualified people than lucybears will (eventually) decide upon that. However, lucybears DOES speculate that they will also be more qualified than the other posters here....

    cyclingfever.com/
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    The peloton long ago gave up any reasonable claim to the benefit of the doubt.

    Discuss[:D]

    Did you get planning permission for that sense of humour bypass?
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