English Nationalism

Gary Askwith · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Patrick Stevens

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gary Askwith

English nationalism? Like so many things wrong in modern Britian it is the historic product of an ugly alliance of the postmodern left and the neo liberal right...a pathetic tit for tat, black v white endless game of oneupmanship both protaganists united in contempt for tradition and human nature.....I could elaborate but I could not realistically do better than this:

[blue]Who cares about England? Politically, it is the love that dare not speak its name among the liberal classes. On the right, that love, if love it is, is as strong as ever.

By Paul Kingsnorth

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Later in the same article he says:

"As part of this, let us embrace both controversy and necessity by confining the troublesome concept of multiculturalism to the historical dustbin."

Are you with him on that?
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Why do you ask patrick?
Multiculturalism? Yip. I have never defended it [xx(]

So does that mean I will be turfed out of the extreme left pigeon hole you had me in last week then [;)]

[url][/url]http://www.kenanmalik.com/essays/against_mc.html[url][/url]

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gary Askwith

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Later in the same article he says:

"As part of this, let us embrace both controversy and necessity by confining the troublesome concept of multiculturalism to the historical dustbin."

Are you with him on that?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Why do you ask patrick?
Multiculturalism? Yip. I have never defended it [xx(]

So does that mean I will be turfed out of the extreme left pigeon hole you had me in last week then [;)]

[url][/url]http://www.kenanmalik.com/essays/against_mc.html[url][/url]

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

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Well, it wasn't long ago that the slightest criticism of multiculturalism was taken as proof positive of BNP membership.[;)] Now, I notice a very large chunk of the left distancing themselves from it.

spire · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Patrick Stevens

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gary Askwith

Multiculturalism? Yip. I have never defended it [xx(]

So does that mean I will be turfed out of the extreme left pigeon hole you had me in last week then [;)]

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Well, it wasn't long ago that the slightest criticism of multiculturalism was taken as proof positive of BNP membership.[;)] Now, I notice a very large chunk of the left distancing themselves from it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So you can't lose your lefty label that easily, Gaz.[;)]

Gary Askwith · June 2007

You won't catch me defending PC/ positive discrimination for able bodied ethnic or religious groups either (you may be gratified to hear)
Or indeed that other form of positive discrimination, strangly absent from the 'right-wing' consciouness- for the royalty/ aristo and the inherited-wealth filthy idle rich ( you may be less gratified to hear)
[:)]

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gary Askwith

Or indeed that other form of positive discrimination, strangly absent from the 'right-wing' consciouness- for the royalty/ aristo and the inherited-wealth filthy idle rich ( you may be less gratified to hear)
[:)]

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No problem, Gaz, I agree that they don't need any positive discrimination.

Flying_Monkey · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Patrick Stevens
Well, it wasn't long ago that the slightest criticism of multiculturalism was taken as proof positive of BNP membership.[;)] Now, I notice a very large chunk of the left distancing themselves from it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

AFAIK, it's always been one of many options for how one deals with cultural variation within society. For example, both mainstream left and right in France have always been very much against 'multiculturalism', and strongly in favour of integration as a necessary precursor of 'egalite'; Canadian 'multiculturalism' is somewhere between this and the UK version, being prefixed with the necessity of understanding what it means to be 'Canadian' but allowing other 'identities' too.

The problem in the UK is we that the state (whether left or right) was too fixated on the economic costs and benefits of immigration (and whether it is perceived as a cost or a benefit has changed at various times in recent history) and not on the social and human dimension. Importing people as cheap labour and leaving them without help in learning English etc. and calling it 'celebrating diversity' has always seemed like a cheap and misleading cultural gloss on a fundamentally economically-driven agenda to me.

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Flying_Monkey

The problem in the UK is we that the state (whether left or right) was too fixated on the economic costs and benefits of immigration (and whether it is perceived as a cost or a benefit has changed at various times in recent history) and not on the social and human dimension. Importing people as cheap labour and leaving them without help in learning English etc. and calling it 'celebrating diversity' has always seemed like a cheap and misleading cultural gloss on a fundamentally economically-driven agenda to me.

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Couldn't agree more. There has been of recent years a tacit alliance between employers and certain of the left. The employers like having a supply of cheap labour and the left feel that all immigration is a good thing. One side is monumentally uninterested in the human side and the other hasn't really thought it through.

It then leaves decent people in the middle struggling with the practical problems. Thus, Aled Roberts, leader of Wrexham Councillor - a local solcitor and thoroughly decent chap, has to work out how the council is to deal with ten thousand migrant workers in the borough, as many have brought their families with them and need school places.

I've made my position clear many times - as a libertarian, I don't think people should be forced to integrate. If they want to form their own little enclaves, then that's up to them. However, learning to speak English is essential if people are to work and communicate effectively and I think every effort should be given to teach English to all incomers.

workers_united · June 2007

Broadly agree on the main points. Tony Bliar et al keep saying that immigration is good for the economy. I dare say the same thing was said about slavery and now we are very contrite about that. I can't stand the "They will do jobs that we won't" argument. That is exploitation and we have no right to assume that their kids will see life the same way (nor should they), so what do we do then? Import some more cheap migrants?

As for the <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> don't think people should be forced to integrate. If they want to form their own little enclaves, then that's up to them. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> what if these enclaves decide that stoning people to death for adultery is a good idea and think that anyone escaping their enclave is fair game for an "honour" murder?

spire · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by workers_united

I can't stand the "They will do jobs that we won't" argument. That is exploitation and we have no right to assume that their kids will see life the same way (nor should they), so what do we do then? Import some more cheap migrants?

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This is a very, very good point.

My guess is that the children of Eastern Europeans will be almost indistinguishable from Brits; they will be wholly integrated; and they won't want to do the nasty jobs their parents did.

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by workers_united

Broadly agree on the main points. Tony Bliar et al keep saying that immigration is good for the economy. I dare say the same thing was said about slavery and now we are very contrite about that. I can't stand the "They will do jobs that we won't" argument. That is exploitation and we have no right to assume that their kids will see life the same way (nor should they), so what do we do then? Import some more cheap migrants?

As for the <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> don't think people should be forced to integrate. If they want to form their own little enclaves, then that's up to them. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> what if these enclaves decide that stoning people to death for adultery is a good idea and think that anyone escaping their enclave is fair game for an "honour" murder?

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They do the jobs we won't but get paid a relatively large amount of money. If I were to be paid œ200k per year for going to Poland and cleaning toilets I may think about doing it for a couple of years and I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one. Would I be exploited?

workers_united · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

They do the jobs we won't but get paid a relatively large amount of money.
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Very egalitarian. What for foreigners or "dark coloured" people?? Bowls of rice next? If you are happy to treat them as "unter menschen" are you happy to apply the same to their kids?

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by workers_united

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

They do the jobs we won't but get paid a relatively large amount of money.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Very egalitarian. What for foreigners or "dark coloured" people?? Bowls of rice next? If you are happy to treat them as "unter menschen" are you happy to apply the same to their kids?
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You seem to have missed off the rest of my comment and gone into some rubbish implying I am in some way racist? I guess you are not able to answer the question.

I put it into perspective by asking the question - am I being exploited if I could earn œ200k per year to clean toilets in Poland. So am I?

workers_united · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco
I guess you are not able to answer the question.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
and I guess you are not able to answer the question about their kids

ankev1 · June 2007

On the subject of multiculturalism I think FM neatly sidestepped Patrick's point about it which was that for years those who had the wit to see it for the nonsense it was and who voiced their reservations were immediately subject to attempts to muzzle them on the grounds of their obvoius racism. It was an indefensibly stupid and divisive policy and only clowns stuck up for it. Anybody remember the late Robin Cook pointing out that it was obviously the right thing because we all like chicken tikka marsala? And he was supposed to be the intellectual heavyweight of New Labour!

If we were honest about this sort of thing and said that we do welcome immigrants who are prepared to do the crap jobs, we could probably devise policies to deal with it. For instance you could advertise the jobs in third world countries on the understanding that the applicants could spend only a max of five years in the country after which they had to spend a year outside the EU. On no account could they bring their families over. That would be crystal clear and probably keep everbody happy. Obviously it couldn't be applied to EU citizens.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by workers_united

As for the <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> don't think people should be forced to integrate. If they want to form their own little enclaves, then that's up to them. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> what if these enclaves decide that stoning people to death for adultery is a good idea and think that anyone escaping their enclave is fair game for an "honour" murder?

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No one would be exempt from the law.

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by workers_united

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco
I guess you are not able to answer the question.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
and I guess you are not able to answer the question about their kids
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The kids would be brought up in this country so would expect a job just like anyone else in the country after being used to the UK average wage and standard of living.

So can you now answer how it is exploiting someone to pay them much more than they get in there own country please. They choose to come because the money is good and they can have a better life. So what if the jobs they sometimes end up doing are not the most desirable jobs.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

Generally, Scots are welcomed in all parts of England. I don't think there's anywhere you'd get a kicking for simply being Scottish. Sadly the converse is not true - if an Englishman walked into a rough boozer in Glasgow he'd probably regret it!
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As usual Spire shoots from the hip with the accuracy of Stevie Wonder.

I recall this little incident a few weeks ago: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/sou ... 757773.stm

As others have posted there is a wide spectrum of experiences of English (and other) nationals visiting Scotland. Some of them, disappointingly are bad experiences.

On the other hand Spire tells us that Scots are welcome in all parts of England. It would be interesting to search the archives for Spire's comments on a few Scots he welcomes: Gordon Brown; Dr John Reid; Des Browne etc. It seems to me that his main objection to these gents is not their political views but the fact that they are Scots in positions of power. How welcoming!

_____________________________________________________________________
Be nice to grumpy old men (or else)

workers_united · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by workers_united

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco
I guess you are not able to answer the question.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
and I guess you are not able to answer the question about their kids
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The kids would be brought up in this country so would expect a job just like anyone else in the country after being used to the UK average wage and standard of living.

So can you now answer how it is exploiting someone to pay them much more than they get in there own country please. They choose to come because the money is good and they can have a better life. So what if the jobs they sometimes end up doing are not the most desirable jobs.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You are exploiting them because you are not paying them the same wage as the indigenous population; a wage that is deemed to be necessary in order to let them have the better life that you mention. As their kids expand the population and are permitted to enjoy "the UK average wage and standard of living" and hence not take these jobs, we have to import even more cheap labour. and so it goes on. It is not a sustainable model.

Addressing skill shortages is one thing, exploiting the world's poor to do jobs that are beneath us is contemptible, IMHO, of course.

spire · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by killiekosmos

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

Generally, Scots are welcomed in all parts of England. I don't think there's anywhere you'd get a kicking for simply being Scottish. Sadly the converse is not true - if an Englishman walked into a rough boozer in Glasgow he'd probably regret it!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

As usual Spire shoots from the hip with the accuracy of Stevie Wonder.

I recall this little incident a few weeks ago: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/sou ... 757773.stm

As others have posted there is a wide spectrum of experiences of English (and other) nationals visiting Scotland. Some of them, disappointingly are bad experiences.

On the other hand Spire tells us that Scots are welcome in all parts of England. It would be interesting to search the archives for Spire's comments on a few Scots he welcomes: Gordon Brown; Dr John Reid; Des Browne etc. It seems to me that his main objection to these gents is not their political views but the fact that they are Scots in positions of power. How welcoming!

_____________________________________________________________________
Be nice to grumpy old men (or else)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Twisting the truth, racist and sightist KK!

As I have said many times, these Scottish POLITICIANS make me sick because they have one rule for their own countrymen, and another for the English!

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by killiekosmos

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

Generally, Scots are welcomed in all parts of England. I don't think there's anywhere you'd get a kicking for simply being Scottish. Sadly the converse is not true - if an Englishman walked into a rough boozer in Glasgow he'd probably regret it!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

As usual Spire shoots from the hip with the accuracy of Stevie Wonder.

I recall this little incident a few weeks ago: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/sou ... 757773.stm

As others have posted there is a wide spectrum of experiences of English (and other) nationals visiting Scotland. Some of them, disappointingly are bad experiences.

On the other hand Spire tells us that Scots are welcome in all parts of England. It would be interesting to search the archives for Spire's comments on a few Scots he welcomes: Gordon Brown; Dr John Reid; Des Browne etc. It seems to me that his main objection to these gents is not their political views but the fact that they are Scots in positions of power. How welcoming!

_____________________________________________________________________
Be nice to grumpy old men (or else)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This is one of the worst tragedies to befall Scotland. Apparently some youths were taunted by teenage girls. The whole nation is in mourning after this tragic incident and the youths involved are being counselled. Scotland is now officially a "victim nation" and special arrangments are being made to exclude teenage girls from all Scottish sporting events.

ankev1 · June 2007

Killiekosmos,

the link you posted says more about the state of the UK generally than Anglo-Scottish relations. To elevate a small piece of unpleasant but typically juvenile behaviour into a "hate crime" as opposed to somebody getting a grip of the silly little tarts shows us just how much "progress" we have made in the PC-driven Blair years. I'm not being anti-Scottish in this BTW, as I'm sure we would be hearing similar drivel from a Scottish policeman had a similar incident occurred in Scotland involving English Morris dancers.

I take it that your example represents the barrel scrapings of the catalogue of anti-Scottish incidents in England during recent years. Not a wise tactic as if somebody wants to start tit for tatting they only have to quote the example from a few years ago of a teenager who was beaten to death in Scotland because of his English accent. Back to the drawing board, I think.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ankev1

Killiekosmos,

the link you posted says more about the state of the UK generally than Anglo-Scottish relations. To elevate a small piece of unpleasant but typically juvenile behaviour into a "hate crime" as opposed to somebody getting a grip of the silly little tarts shows us just how much "progress" we have made in the PC-driven Blair years. I'm not being anti-Scottish in this BTW, as I'm sure we would be hearing similar drivel from a Scottish policeman had a similar incident occurred in Scotland involving English Morris dancers.

I take it that your example represents the barrel scrapings of the catalogue of anti-Scottish incidents in England during recent years. Not a wise tactic as if somebody wants to start tit for tatting they only have to quote the example from a few years ago of a teenager who was beaten to death in Scotland because of his English accent. Back to the drawing board, I think.
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Ankev1

My post was simply intended to refute Spire's post that "Scots are welcome in all parts of England" - and that's all. I chose this one because it happened this month.

I agree that we could find much worse on both sides but that was not the point of my post.

_____________________________________________________________________
Be nice to grumpy old men (or else)

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by workers_united

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by workers_united

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco
I guess you are not able to answer the question.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
and I guess you are not able to answer the question about their kids
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The kids would be brought up in this country so would expect a job just like anyone else in the country after being used to the UK average wage and standard of living.

So can you now answer how it is exploiting someone to pay them much more than they get in there own country please. They choose to come because the money is good and they can have a better life. So what if the jobs they sometimes end up doing are not the most desirable jobs.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You are exploiting them because you are not paying them the same wage as the indigenous population; a wage that is deemed to be necessary in order to let them have the better life that you mention. As their kids expand the population and are permitted to enjoy "the UK average wage and standard of living" and hence not take these jobs, we have to import even more cheap labour. and so it goes on. It is not a sustainable model.

Addressing skill shortages is one thing, exploiting the world's poor to do jobs that are beneath us is contemptible, IMHO, of course.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I see, you have now brought a new factor into it. I was basing it on the immigrant toilet cleaner getting standard toilet cleaner pay.
They are doing jobs that UK people would rather not do, but they are not getting paid any less that UK people would. Do you see why it is not exploitation now?

workers_united · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Originally posted by Joe Sacco
I see, you have now brought a new factor into it. I was basing it on the immigrant toilet cleaner getting standard toilet cleaner pay.
They are doing jobs that UK people would rather not do, but they are not getting paid any less that UK people would. Do you see why it is not exploitation now? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I am saying that an immigrant worker should be paid the same amount for the same job, commensurate with his/her skills. I don't like the implication that all they are good for is cleaning toilets. That suggests an, at best, unfortunate attitude.

Bcp · June 2007

I'm not sure that I recognise the idea that somehow 'things English' are based on hate or a hatred of difference. In fact historically and to date England is known for its moderation. Consider that:

England never had pogroms against the Jews (the expulsion of the Jews by Edward I being the possible exception but that was after a fifteen year period in which they were 'supposed' to integrate!) and it was not violent. Such actions were frequent in eastern and central Europe.

The CoE was a model of compromise in trying to encompass the demands of Protestants and Catholics and the amount of violence here in comparison to that on the Continent during the Reformation and Counter-Reformation was miniscule (Massacre of the Anabaptists anyone? Or the complete wiping out of the Cathars centuries earlier?)

England agonised about killing a king (Charles I) - look at the histories of other European monarchies - far bloodier and less likely to try to reach a settlement.

England never had a legal colour bar (like the USA and various other countries). Evidently there was racism - but not by parliamentary law.

Finally Scotland had a much bloodier history - often entwined with English history but often pretty brutal on its own account. When William Wallace found that a Scottish town was unwilling to raise the troops he demanded he had 1 in 5 of the men in the town killed - something that caused horror in England when reported - and something I have never heard of in any English town from 1066 onward.

So - are we really worse than France, Germany, Spain, Poland, the USA in the hate stakes...?

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by workers_united

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Originally posted by Joe Sacco
I see, you have now brought a new factor into it. I was basing it on the immigrant toilet cleaner getting standard toilet cleaner pay.
They are doing jobs that UK people would rather not do, but they are not getting paid any less that UK people would. Do you see why it is not exploitation now? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I am saying that an immigrant worker should be paid the same amount for the same job, commensurate with his/her skills. I don't like the implication that all they are good for is cleaning toilets. That suggests an, at best, unfortunate attitude.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I haven't said the immigrant worker should be paid less, nor have I said all they are good for is cleaning toilets.

What I have said is that if they want to come and reap the benefits of getting better pay than in their own country for the same job (or even a lesser job) then why is that exploiting them?

You have made a big assumption that they are getting paid less in your narrow minded exploitation comment.

jackhunt · June 2007

Why do we need to define ourselves in terms of the country we were born or raised in? I'm British but I don't get all dewy eyed about it. I reside here, I pay taxes and I am afforded protection and fredom by laws etc. But that's it.

I don't have any particular affinity with other British people - if fact when I am abroad I actively avoid them. There are sometings to be admired and cherished about this country - just as there are things to be admired and cherished in other countries.

Does the clutching of national identity reveal a deficiency of character elsewhere?

workers_united · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by workers_united

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Originally posted by Joe Sacco
I see, you have now brought a new factor into it. I was basing it on the immigrant toilet cleaner getting standard toilet cleaner pay.
They are doing jobs that UK people would rather not do, but they are not getting paid any less that UK people would. Do you see why it is not exploitation now? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I am saying that an immigrant worker should be paid the same amount for the same job, commensurate with his/her skills. I don't like the implication that all they are good for is cleaning toilets. That suggests an, at best, unfortunate attitude.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I haven't said the immigrant worker should be paid less, nor have I said all they are good for is cleaning toilets.

What I have said is that if they want to come and reap the benefits of getting better pay than in their own country for the same job (or even a lesser job) then why is that exploiting them?

You have made a big assumption that they are getting paid less in your narrow minded exploitation comment.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You are the one who associated migrant workers with toilet cleaning which clearly demonstrates your mindset.

Smeggers · June 2007

I'm no anthropologist, but it always fascinates me the number of Brits going on holiday (in airports) wearing "England" branded clothing (football or otherwise)...

My latest theory is that its borne of insecurity of going somewhere foreign, almost like saying, "yeh, Im different, what you gonna do about it?"

Hickory Dickory Dock,
A baby elephant ran up the clock,
The clock is being repaired

Bcp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Smeggers

I'm no anthropologist, but it always fascinates me the number of Brits going on holiday (in airports) wearing "England" branded clothing (football or otherwise)...

My latest theory is that its borne of insecurity of going somewhere foreign, almost like saying, "yeh, Im different, what you gonna do about it?"

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

On the other hand you also see a lot of English people wearing Brazil shirts (with no evident connection and no 'Brazil game' coming up anywhere) and plenty wearing clothing which is definitely 'American' or 'Italian' branded - either through its logo or the label.

I don't really like the wearing of sports kit as leisurewear but (and it's massive in the north-east) but I don't think it is intrinsically linked to nationalism - just what is thought of as fashionable at the moment. And in an era when many of the most high-profile celebs are sportsmen/women is it a surprise? By the same token why is that old geezer wearing a replica pro-shirt when wheezing up the hill - is he really sponsored by the US Postal Service?

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