English Nationalism

Noodley · June 2007

We were having a conversation at work today re Scottish Nationalism and it was generally agreed (Scots and English) that, although it may have it's roots to some extent in anti-Englishness, there was a general agreement that it has a feeling of inclusiveness for different races, beliefs and cultures (I am sure there are examples of this not being the case, but this was the general feeling.)

It got me thinking about English Nationalism. From what I see on here and have read elsewhere it appears English Nationalism is very much based on the hatred of difference and generating a feeling of non-inclusiveness, trying to divide people. Do you think it is possible for English Nationalism to devlop to the stage where people can be proud to be English without having rely on hatred? Or I am off the mark and have got this wrong? There may be is a feeling of inclusiveness present which is not promoted in the media?

spire · June 2007

Generally, Scots are welcomed in all parts of England. I don't think there's anywhere you'd get a kicking for simply being Scottish. Sadly the converse is not true - if an Englishman walked into a rough boozer in Glasgow he'd probably regret it!

ankev1 · June 2007

Noodley,

the ugly English nationalism to which you refer is the nationalism of the football crowd i.e. people who are being nationalistic about a country of whose history and values they know virtually nothing, despite it being their own country.

The reason for this is probably twofold: firstly the English tended to be much more happy to identify themselves with being British than, say, the Scots and secondly it seemed that for many years any overt expression of patriotism on the part of the English and to a lesser extent of British patriotism was frowned upon if not positively disapproved of. That sort of attitude seemed to set in in the 60s/70s and reflects the current left/"liberal" leanings of the anything but intelligent intelligentsia.

The current English nationalism seems to have been provoked into being, to an extent, by anti-English Scots nationalism, which is a shame as Britain was always more than the sum of its parts.

Yes there is a wholesome English nationalism, patriotism is probably a better word, but it is rare for the above reasons. The way ahead is probably for a more positive view of English history to be taught in schools and it should be celebratory as opposed to an attempt to induce shame.

workers_united · June 2007

spire I almost agree. I'm born and bred Glaswegian but my kids were all born in England and sound English. I'm a bit sensitive about this issue but I've never encountered any problems in the Glasgow area but in Perthshire (and all points further north and east), the anti-English feeling is very noticeable. On holiday, I've heard the locals miss-calling my kids because they are English. When I've ask them what their problem is, in my retrained strong Glaswegian accent, the locals seem to start taking a lot of interest in their shuffling feet. I, personally, have never encountered any anti-Scottish sentiments in my many years in England.

Noodley · June 2007

Spire, you are a star! I reckoned you'd be the first to answer with some stereotyped rubbish [:D]

I was trying to get a serious answer rather than a retort in the "yeah but, no but.." manner you have provided.

As I said in the OP I am aware there will be examples of behaviour most people would view as abhorent. The point I am making is the consensus at my workplace - including the English people who have lived in Scotland for various lengths of time from a few months to many years - was that the climate was one of inclusiveness, of welcoming "difference" and "otherness", of being open to other cultures. I am not speaking about individual incidents rather a framework at a political and cultural level which welcomes people and which promotes difference. Scotland is comfortable with it's culture, with it's identity and welcomes others to be part of and to participate in an evolving culture which takes into account their difference.

Can English nationalism promote such a feeling, or is it based on "hatred"? Is it based on "hatred" or is their English nationalism in existence which is based on a feeling of inclusiveness, which welcomes difference?

I am not trying to open up a Scotland/England debate rather to establish if there is or can be such a thing as English nationalism which is inclusive.

spire · June 2007

Noodley

Then why start your OP with warm remarks about Scottish nationalism which you contrast unfavourably with English nationalism?

Anyway, I refer you to your countryman who has echoed my point - and he clearly has no intrinsic anti-Scottish views! And neither have I!![:D]

Noodley · June 2007

sorry ankev and workers united I was writing my reply when you posted. I know there is still anti-Englishness in Scotland (my father in law is English and I have first hand experience of what he has met with on a few occassions), but it is the framework of society I am looking at here - I believe, as do my colleagues (who are from differing political persuasions as well as being from differing national backgrounds) that there is a genuine framework which encourages inclusiveness - people from other countries, cultures, races are welcome to participate in developing Scotland's identity within Europe. They are not seen as some kind of "other" rather they can participate. Maybe I am wrong?

Ankev, re the growth of English nationalism being a product of anti-English Scots' nationalism - it is my view that some of the current english nationalism is based on a "why does Scotland get more than us" as well as a "we (England) do not want you (everyone else)" attitude - again I may be wrong, and I realise this is a very base and simplistic view. I know what I mean, but may have to take a bit more time thinking it through. I would like to see an England which is comfortable enough in it's identity to welcome others, to develop a culture of inclusiveness.

Noodley · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

Noodley

Then why start your OP with warm remarks about Scottish nationalism which you contrast unfavourably with English nationalism?Anyway, I refer you to your countryman who has echoed my point - and he clearly has no intrinsic anti-Scottish views! And neither have I!![:D]
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I was trying to convey the context of my post, rather than just jumping in and saying I think English nationalism is based on hate. I am genuinely not trying to start a Scotland/England debate. I know there are still problems but this stretches beyond these problems - it is a framework which promotes inclusiveness. I am basing this on what I have experienced and I would say it is a framework which is a recent development since devolution. It includes not only race but also gender, sexuality, disability, etc. Perhaps as similar devolved England would promote a comfortable identity which promotes rather than excludes.

mjones · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Noodley
...
Can English nationalism promote such a feeling, or is it based on "hatred"? Is it based on "hatred" or is their English nationalism in existence which is based on a feeling of inclusiveness, which welcomes difference?

I am not trying to open up a Scotland/England debate rather to establish if there is or can be such a thing as English nationalism which is inclusive.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'd tend to agree with you, though I'm not clear what you meant by "from what I've seen here" in your earlier post. There are of course exceptions, but Scottish nationalism does in general seem to be more associated with the politics of the governance of Scotland, whereas English nationalism is unfortunately most closely associated with anti-immigration and anti-European views.

Sadly, Welsh nationalism (and I was born and grew up in Wales, and my family live there) is also too often of the type you described previously: "the hatred of difference and generating a feeling of non-inclusiveness". Welsh nationalism is closely linked to the Welsh language, all too often promoted in way that gives the impression that non-Welsh speakers (the vast majority) aren't truly welsh. Some comments made by nationalist politicians about English 'immigrants' have led to accusations of racism (search Google for "Plaid Cymru racism" ..).

workers_united · June 2007

Noodley Fair points. I've seen it from both sides. In my youth in Scotland, the constant English-centric (probably really London-centric) nature of the TV was really irritating. I lived through bad social times in Scotland just the same as many people in the North of England did. I'm sure we all blamed "them" but in Scotland it was very easy to equate "them" with the English. I can believe that Scotland, in general, has a greater appreciation of the world outside the UK than England but I think that is to do with small/large countries - just look at the US's knowledge of the rest of the world.

As for the English nationalism, I can see why the English are fed up with the Barnet formula but that's now tied-up with the Labour party's implementation of a completely asymmetric devolution system. I don't blame the Scottish parliament for their approach to NHS drug provision, university fees etc. They have they money to do it. Whether they should have that money or not, is a different question.

Noodley · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mjones
...though I'm not clear what you meant by "from what I've seen here" in your earlier post...
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Sorry, that was a reference to the many posts (usually made by spire [}:)][:D]) which seem to concentrate on non-acceptance and moaning about "everyone else". I have seen English people like this when I have visited England but all the English people I know as friends (some of my best friends are...[:D]) do not seem to be like this - they mostly seem to be fairly welcoming to others and get along fine with everyone irresective of race, sexuality, etc.

I am curious if this non-inclusiveness of English nationalism can ever be taken away and whether thosse people who are comfortable to be proud of their open acceptance and of "others" and promote Englishness which includes "others".

cuddy duck · June 2007

Gypos are filthy scum, and muslims are degraded, subhuman scum, and I'm a morally superior, wholesome English nationalist.
Hope that helps.

There are 9 million bicycles in Beijing. But no cyclists: that's one thing we can be sure of....

Richrd2205 · June 2007

[long ramble]
I moved up to Scotland (the family home 3 generations ago) about 2 years ago & have had a mixed reception...
First, it needs to be said that I moved away largely because I hated the parochial, numpty, right-wing, attitudes that were common where I was staying: I had a choice between Glasgow & Lyon as my next home & don't regret for a moment the choice I made, however....
Yes, I've been subject to any number of verbal attacks on the basis of my accent. What upsets me more is that I'm categorised as "english" when folk find my attitudes different, when english folk wouldn't identify as so at all (in fact , would normally describe me as "weird").
I think that there's something "Northern British," that's distinctly different from the rest of Britain: having spent my formative years in Yorkshire enables me to fit in well!
However, I can't help but notice that there's a rump of SNP support that's anti-english (eg my fiancee's uncle who told me that I was "an English c***" when we were talking about england being thrashed in the ashes in the winter.
I'm really unsure about what I'm trying to say but: quite clearly, Northern & Southern Britain are VERY different; however, Scotland has a variety of attitudes therein & Edinburgh is as close in Britain that I've seen to London culture...
So: Scotland is so much cooler than England for acceptance of other cultures; however, Salmond wouldn't be first minister without the numpty vote. So I'm really confused about this point...
I also struggle with the idea that Orcadians, Glaswegians, teuchters & folk from Edinburgh (let's not mention the Borders!) have a common culture that is distinct from anything south of the border...
[/long ramble]
So, yes, English nationalism drove me away from England & is offensive & unpleasant, whilst Scottish nationalism is less bad, it's still not very good...

snorri · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ankev1

The reason for this is probably twofold: firstly the English tended to be much more happy to identify themselves with being British than, say, the Scots
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I don't think this is true, I think many English people have difficulty accepting that England is just one part of Britain. It is just in recent years that many English seem to have realised the English flag is the flag of Saint George and not the Union flag.

Noodley · June 2007

ok, this is getting into a Scotland/England sort of thing which I did not want. I can appreciate what is being said from all points, but it stretches beyond the reception some English people get from some Scottish people and the reception some Scottish people get in England.

The Scotland/England thing is confusing as people tend to think Scottish nationalism refers to the SNP. I beleive nationalism in Scotland stretches beyond this, and that when Scottish Labour were in power there was still a strong Scottish identity. But this was not an identity which excluded, this was not an identity which had hatred; this was an identity which was comfortable with it's past (however history may have skewed reality), and forward-looking in it's forward-lookingliness ([:D]) I also think Scottishness extends to Conservatism, as there is a clear identity of Scotland within the Uinion.

My belief is that Scotland can be strong within Europe, welcoming to others. My fear is that England cannot. (I suppose I have now entered the argument I was trying to stay away from).

Please can someone convince me that England can unite in inclusiveness not hate.

Richrd2205 · June 2007

Apologies, Noodley...
I'm largely in agreement with that post (& (damn you!) it's a darn site more erudite than my ramble).
I agree that Scotland is far more able to welcome others than England, hence the rump of what I posted before.
I'd like to see England develop some identity not based on hate, but my inability to see this led me to leave...
I might try to explain my point more accurately whilst sober & awake on Monday when I'm online again...
If the thread's dead by then, sorry if I took it OT...

ankev1 · June 2007

At the root of the OP is the idea that English nationalism is intrinsically linked to hatred of others. I think hatred may be a bit strong and suggest that "contempt" catches it better. Three points:

The English took a while to adjust their self-view in the light of the dissolution of the Empire. There was probably a general view that anything or anyone not British or English was inferior (with the possible exception of Anzacs and Canadians).

This sense of superiority expressed itself in genuine racism and the first people to feel the brunt of this were W Indian immigrants who started coming over in (I think) the 50s. Had they simply been accepted as part of English society, subsequent English social history might have looked a lot different. It's taken a long time but there seems to have been a general shift on the part of the English away from such racism. How long it will take for W Indian communities to completely get over it is another question.

Even the thickest bigot has probably got around to the idea that integration of immigrants is probably better than rejection. This brings us on to the establishment's response: multiculturalism was barmy from the word go and by encouraging "difference" it was guaranteed to get up the hackles of even those who didn't regard themselves as racist. I suspect a lot of the current antipathy towards immigrants is directed against those who don't wish to integrate. There needs to be a policy which is the opposite of multiculturalism IMO.

I know that last point goes against some of what Noodley is saying but if the English attitude to immigrants differs from the Scottish one in that they demand that immigrants fit in with them and not the other way around, then so be it, if we want peace and harmony, which one hopes is everybody's wish.

In any event even the biggest bigot can be happy: we've still got the EU and nobody at all minds if you slag off the French!

Simon L2 · June 2007

it's the provincials I detest

ankev1 · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Simon L2

it's the provincials I detest
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It's always been a mystery to us northern types that you southerners exist at all given your inherent gayness. Presumably artificial insemination is big business down there.[:D][;)]

Simon L2 · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ankev1

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Simon L2

it's the provincials I detest
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It's always been a mystery to us northern types that you southerners exist at all given your inherent gayness. Presumably artificial insemination is big business down there.[:D][;)]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
[:D]

Saddle bum · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ankev1

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Simon L2

it's the provincials I detest
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It's always been a mystery to us northern types that you southerners exist at all given your inherent gayness. Presumably artificial insemination is big business down there.[:D][;)]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No, we occasionally take a few females from the Frozen North back to civilisation, scrub them up and teach then to use a knife and fork. They breed very well. They are also grateful for men without semi-permanent Brewer's Droop. [:D]

Molon Labe.

Unknown · June 2007

Nationalism tends to thrive when a small country/province/principality feels dominated by another larger country. Hence, there are nationalist movements in Scotland and Wales. However there is no nationalist movement as such in England. There is patriotism and there is a form of football thuggery which is often confused with nationalism, but the two are very different.

southlaker · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Saddle bum

No, we occasionally take a few females from the Frozen North back to civilisation, scrub them up and teach then to use a knife and fork. They breed very well. They are also grateful for men without semi-permanent Brewer's Droop. [:D]

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If it wasn't for the Frozen North (Sheffield) you cockneys would still be eating with your fingers. I'm not sure you would have soap either. Or Baths. Or trains. Or bicycles.

redcogs · June 2007

The question is, could the English ever break with the chauvinist attitudes which are become so characteristic? i would say yes, certainly. But doing so needs to involve a recognition of a root cause of negative and damaging nationalism, ie, the activities of the English establishment and their creatures in the media. The 'elite' have always been prepared to mobilise racist patriotism whenever it has felt its economic interests to have been under threat. A good example of this was when the UK had accute labour shortages and needed reconstruction following WW2. The ruling class then, (as now) had no difficulty facilitating and encouraging people from a wide range of national origins to fill gaps in the labour market, particularly in transport and the NHS, but afterwards, when a burgeoning labour movement was beginning to make equalitarian demands the same 'elite' was quick to identify 'other' people of different national origins as being responsible for all societal problems. It was a crude divide and rule politics, a nasty game, that can infect even people of intelligence, indeed, under some circumstances, it has been known to develop into something possessing a truly catastrophic nature, unless there is a strong and united counter resistance.

please look up to the stars.. ***

Simon L2 · June 2007

I agree with Redders!...except, and I'm perfectly serious here, the idea of England has, from where I sit, never been so weak. Without getting in to the whys and wherefores I truly doubt whether most Londoners think of themselves as English.

redcogs · June 2007

Been resident in North East Scotland for six months. Moved from Yorkshire for a variety of reasons, very important on the list was 'quality of life' factors, in its broadest sense, not simply limited to crude economics and/or materialism.

i share the objection made by others above to narrow English racist chauvinism, and it would be dishonest of me not to include that as a factor motivating the relocation.

Our experience so far has been very positive.

A convincing example comes from Mrs redcogs, who works for the local authority, and has experienced a lot of positive Scottish attitudes towards people of other nationalities. She indicates that overwhelmingly 'incomers' (to use a perjorative English term) are welcomed and widely viewed as beneficial to Scottish society, as opposed to a parasitical drain upon resources, which was a widespread view amongst many of her former colleagues in England. There does seem to be a shared understanding, partly motivated by the 'body politic', that Scotland's future depends on embracing and encouraging an influx of different influences. This helps develop a warm feeling towards other humans, encouraging an optimism about our future which is almost absent in England.

please look up to the stars.. ***

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

There does seem to be a shared understanding, partly motivated by the 'body politic', that Scotland's future depends on embracing and encouraging an influx of different influences. This helps develop a warm feeling towards other humans, encouraging an optimism about our future which is almost absent in England.
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So, you've gone up there with English accents and been accepted?[:0]

paul_bhoy · June 2007

As a Glaswegian,of Irish descent, now living in leafy East Sussex. Lets not kid ourselves on that Scotland is a warm and welcoming host to all. It still has a lot of work to do, although not tainted with racial undertones, it still has sectarian issues which it likes to sweep under the carpet. Scotlands ex First Minister, Jack McConnell called in Scotlands Secret Shame.The Scottish Nationalists are learning valuable lessons on this and this is something that English nationalists have to take onboard.Unfortunately for many English nationalists they are lumped into the same category at the BNP. I dont have a problem, or should any intelligent being, with English people being proud to being English but they have to distance themselves from the over eager politicians who appear at every soundbite rubbishing outsiders, especially those from the new EU partner countries, before the non English population sees them not as right wing but as true nationalists

The beer always wins

Gary Askwith · June 2007

English nationalism? Like so many things wrong in modern Britian it is the historic product of an ugly alliance of the postmodern left and the neo liberal right...a pathetic tit for tat, black v white endless game of oneupmanship both protaganists united in contempt for tradition and human nature.....I could elaborate but I could not realistically do better than this:

Who cares about England? Politically, it is the love that dare not speak its name among the liberal classes. On the right, that love, if love it is, is as strong as ever. For decades now, virtually the only people who have been prepared to stand up for England are those whom most New Statesman readers would cross the street to avoid: flag-waving Tories; reactionary old buffers writing to the Daily Telegraph letters page; and, lurking on the dark margins, the racist right, their skins throbbing lobster pink with fear and fury.

But what about the rest, the great mass of people who are neither politicised nor particularly given to cultural analysis? These are the people who fly the George Cross from vans and cars; those for whom England is a reality, but who have been instructed not to mention it, in case they fan flames that nobody wants to see. For them - for us - England is now a forbidden word.

The left has played an enormous part in the deculturisation of the English people. The postmodern, liberal 21st-century line on Englishness is that it is meaningless - and a good thing, too. The English, after all, have a dark history: colonialism abroad and the oppression of the Scots, Irish and Welsh at home. Any resurgence of discussions about their identity can only serve to raise ghosts. Today, we are simply a collection of people living on a "multicultural" island in the North Sea.

Fear of being hijacked by the racist right has led the English - or at least, the English intelligentsia - to deny the existence of their own culture. This has had two dangerous consequences.

One is that the far right has been able to colonise Englishness for itself, conflate it with whiteness and make us all even more nervous about discussing it. The far right has exploited this lack of discussion to play on fears of a "liberal elite" or "Brussels bureaucracy" conspiring to do down the English. The fear and anger that this spawns among a people anxious about their identity is then turned on the wrong targets - the current favourites being immigrants and asylum-seekers.

The other consequence is that the full-on assault on what remains of a distinctive English culture, primarily by the forces of American capitalism, has gone virtually unchallenged by a left that should have been shouting the loudest against it.

But what is England? The English folk legend Martin Carthy puts it well. "The English don't know who they are," he says. "They have given up their identity and sold an idea of 'Britain' - the Tower of London is England; Buckingham Palace is England; the Yeomen of the Guard is England. Ain't no culture there . . . I think what identifies English people is their music, their dance, their literature and their painting."

Carthy is on to something. Music and the arts help to define a people. So, too, do modes of dress, crafts, culinary tradition, language and connection to a landscape. Together, these things go to make up the core of a culture.

It is perhaps in the English landscape that "culture" can be most easily glimpsed. The pubs, the shops, the clubs, the places of worship, the farms, the high streets, the villages: the places that the English built, that only the English could have built. The places that could not be anywhere else.

These are increasingly in short supply. Take the local pub - a cultural cornerstone if ever there were one. "When you have lost your inns," declared the French-turned-English poet Hilaire Belloc in the 1930s, "drown your empty selves, for you will have lost the last of England." It may be time to start running the bath, for the traditional pub is disappearing fast. Twenty of these go out of business every month. Half of those that remain are owned by giant pub chains, many financed by multinational banks. The number of true "family brewers" in Britain stands at just 38.

The same is true of our towns and cities. Virtually gone are the independent shops, the markets, the expressions of local identity. High streets become multinational malls, helping to turn urban areas into what the New Economics Foundation calls "clone towns". Its reports on this phenomenon merely put figures on what we can all see happening around us: between 1995 and 2000, the UK lost 20 per cent of its corner shops, grocers, high-street banks, post offices and pubs, amounting to a cumulative loss of more than 30,000 local economic outlets. Chain stores take their place.

The countryside fares no better. More than 100,000 farm jobs have been lost in the past decade alone. Family farms are disappearing. Our fisheries and their attendant fleets have been sucked dry. The once-famous orchards of England are being grubbed up in pursuit of EU subsidies; of the 6,000 varieties of our most famous native fruit, the apple, nine are readily sold in supermarkets. Faster and faster, England is becoming a one-stop shop on the road to a global market peopled by citizens of nowhere.

By Paul Kingsnorth

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

redcogs · June 2007

Fair points made by Kingsnorth Gaz. Reminded me of Richard Thompson's song:

The time has come for action
Leave your satisfaction
Can't you hear St. George's tune
St. George's tune is calling on you
Freedom was your mother
Fight for one another
Leave the factory, leave the forge
Dance to the new St. George

Don't believe pretenders
Who say they would defend us
While they flash their teeth and wave
The other hand is being paid
They choke the air and bleed us
These noble men who lead us
Leave the factory, leave the forge
Dance to the new St. George

The fish and foul are ailing
The farmer's life is failing
Where are all the backroom boys
The backroom boys can't save us now
We're poisoned by the greedy
Who plunder on the needy
Leave the factory, leave the forge
Dance to the new St. George

please look up to the stars.. ***

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gary Askwith

English nationalism? Like so many things wrong in modern Britian it is the historic product of an ugly alliance of the postmodern left and the neo liberal right...a pathetic tit for tat, black v white endless game of oneupmanship both protaganists united in contempt for tradition and human nature.....I could elaborate but I could not realistically do better than this:

[blue]Who cares about England? Politically, it is the love that dare not speak its name among the liberal classes. On the right, that love, if love it is, is as strong as ever.

By Paul Kingsnorth

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Later in the same article he says:

"As part of this, let us embrace both controversy and necessity by confining the troublesome concept of multiculturalism to the historical dustbin."

Are you with him on that?

English Nationalism

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