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20 limits - legally enforceable

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  • _Bonj__Bonj_ Posts: 39
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cunobelin</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Someone posted something about them not being enforceable,<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Just shows why you need to read the "evidence" - have we convinced you yet of the legality (and enforceability) of 20 mph zones?

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Not quite. Slightly. I'm in two minds to tell you the truth. Previously I can't see why they wouldn't be enforceable, but I can't see why someone would post about them not being, and why the police would put out a statement trying to make an example of someone who broke it, that strikes me as the type of thing they would do if they <i>weren't</i> enforceable.

    oh, and you appear to have had me banned yet again for disagreeing with speed limits. That's nice. It really is pointless though.
  • rothbookrothbook Posts: 943
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> but I can't see why someone would post about them not being <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Allow me to reply to this.

    Banjo, the interweb is full of nutjobs and raving frothers who post garbage and claim it's true in the face of all the clear evidence to the contrary.


    But then I guess you of all people know this...
  • ArchcpArchcp Posts: 8,987
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by CometGirl</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>

    Where on earth does the idea that they ARE enforceable come from?
    The 20mph signs are basically just a request, not an order.


    <hr noshade size="1">
    CyclingIsPermittedAlongThisFootpathGenericPath

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Er, the Highway Code? As shown here, complete with a pretty picture so even bonj can understand it.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Er... it says they are <font size="6">MOSTLY</font id="size6"> prohibitive. Doesn't say they ALL are.


    <hr noshade size="1">
    CyclingIsPermittedAlongThisFootpathGenericPath

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Good grief, the teddy I knitted this week and stuffed with cotton wool has more brains than you...

    Top heading on that page:

    <b>Traffic signs: Signs giving orders</b>

    Next line:

    <b>Signs with red circles are mostly prohibitive. Plates below signs qualify their message.</b>

    So, look at the top one again. Signs giving orders. 'Orders' must be obeyed.

    Next line: 'mostly prohibitive'. This means that most of the orders are prohibitive - telling you you <i>must not</i> do something - "no right turn", "no overtaking" etc. However, some are telling you that you <i>must</i> do something - "give priority to oncoming vehicles", "stop". These are not prohibitive, as they are positive instructions, but they are still orders that must be obeyed.

    In fact I suspect you could interpret a speed limit as either - it either means you <i>must not</i> travel at over that speed, or that you <i>must</i> travel within it. Either way, it's still an order. And not open to your own special brand of interpretation.

    Just to make it clear, when you see a black number, inside a red border, it's called a 'speed limit', and you must not travel faster than that speed. Otherwise you are what we call 'speeding', and the police can do you for it. Maybe you should brush up on your Highway Code. Or get a brain. Or preferably, both.


    If I had a baby elephant, it could help me clean the car. If I had a car.
    If I had a baby elephant, it could help me clean the car. If I had a car.
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by ScumOfTheRoad</i>
    no court in the land would entertain a defence of "I read somewhere on te Internet that someone said I could go a 30mph and I wouldn't get done".


    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    It would give everyone a good laugh though. [:p]
  • dondaredondare Posts: 2,113
    I originally suggested that 20 mph limits might not be enforceable. (Tho' someone else may have made that point as well.)

    Reference to the highway code does not prove it one way or t'other; a lot of the HC is advisory.

    Some 20 mph limits probably aren't enforceable, but the links given by SOTR clearly indicate that since 1999 the legal mechanism for creating 20 mph limits has been in place and therefore they could be.

    I am grateful to SOTR for furthering my education.



    "da sapienti et addetur ei sapientia doce iustum et festinabit accipere."
    This post contains traces of nuts.
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
    I am grateful to SOTR for furthering my education.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Don, don't put it like that. This is only a cycling forum, for goodness sake. I just Googled.
  • dondaredondare Posts: 2,113
    Using Google you can find anything. I'd found a reference to a case in which 20 mph limits were shown not to be legally enforceable, but perhaps that pre-dated 1999.

    "da sapienti et addetur ei sapientia doce iustum et festinabit accipere."
    This post contains traces of nuts.
  • CometGirlCometGirl Posts: 2,681
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by CometGirl</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>

    Where on earth does the idea that they ARE enforceable come from?
    The 20mph signs are basically just a request, not an order.


    <hr noshade size="1">
    CyclingIsPermittedAlongThisFootpathGenericPath

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Er, the Highway Code? As shown here, complete with a pretty picture so even bonj can understand it.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Er... it says they are <font size="6">MOSTLY</font id="size6"> prohibitive. Doesn't say they ALL are.


    <hr noshade size="1">
    CyclingIsPermittedAlongThisFootpathGenericPath

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    ROFLMAO!

    You complete prat. Yes, those are "mostly prohibitive" (telling you NOT to do something) and a few are "instructive" (telling you you MUST do something).

    It doesn't mean speed limits generally are "mostly" prohibitive.

    But thanks for the giggle.
  • CometGirlCometGirl Posts: 2,681
    Ah, I see Arch beat me to it. Still, probably bears repeating in case he didn't get it the first time...
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by dondare</i>

    Using Google you can find anything. I'd found a reference to a case in which 20 mph limits were shown not to be legally enforceable, but perhaps that pre-dated 1999.

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    You MIGHT have come across a case on speed limits on private land,
    for instance shopping centres.
    Such limits are not (I'm no expert here) enforcable in the same way as those on the public roads.
  • ArchcpArchcp Posts: 8,987
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by CometGirl</i>

    Ah, I see Arch beat me to it. Still, probably bears repeating in case he didn't get it the first time...
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    But you put it so much more succinctly, dear![;)]

    If I had a baby elephant, it could help me clean the car. If I had a car.
    If I had a baby elephant, it could help me clean the car. If I had a car.
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Arch</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by CometGirl</i>

    Ah, I see Arch beat me to it. Still, probably bears repeating in case he didn't get it the first time...
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    But you put it so much more succinctly, dear![;)]

    If I had a baby elephant, it could help me clean the car. If I had a car.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    When cometgirl has to start dealing with estate agents, she'll be even more succinct. [;)]
  • _Bonj__Bonj_ Posts: 39
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by dondare</i>

    Using Google you can find anything. <b>I'd found a reference to a case in which 20 mph limits were shown not to be legally enforceable</b>

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Ah, so they're NOT enforceable, and there's proof of it. I knew it.
  • rothbookrothbook Posts: 943
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> there's proof of it. I knew it. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Again using Google I found a source that says:

    "Bonj blows goats-I have pictures"

    Must be true, on the interweb innit?

    Did it end badly Banjo?

    I mean, did she want kids or summat...
  • ArchcpArchcp Posts: 8,987
    I'm so out of touch. I always thought, when you saw a speed limit sign you should avoid exceeding that speed limit. I didn't realise it was <i>de riguer</i> to google for a loophole so as to avoid obeying it. What's wrong with just driving at less than 20 for the duration of the limit?

    So old fashioned, I know...

    If I had a baby elephant, it could help me clean the car. If I had a car.
    If I had a baby elephant, it could help me clean the car. If I had a car.
  • CometGirlCometGirl Posts: 2,681
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by _Bonj_</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by dondare</i>

    Using Google you can find anything. <b>I'd found a reference to a case in which 20 mph limits were shown not to be legally enforceable</b>

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Ah, so they're NOT enforceable, and there's proof of it. I knew it.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Using Google, you can find people who have "proof" that they can survive without food or water.

    I suggest you try it.

    We've been through this. All speed limits (other than on certain private roads) are enforceable, and until you recognise this, you're not safe driving anything that doesn't have "Fisher Price" embossed on the side and a space underneath for your feet.
  • Could there be a new offence of googling whilst driving?
  • RavenbaitRavenbait Posts: 13,064
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by CometGirl</i>
    Using Google, you can find people who have "proof" that they can survive without food or water.

    I suggest you try it.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Excellent. Prana metabolism. About the level of credulous muppetry required for this sort of discussion.

    Sam

    <font size="1"><font color="teal">The cross product of Tank Girl and Ellen Ripley:</font id="teal">

    http://ravenfamily.org
    <font color="purple">"<u>You</u> might remember that 'annoyed' is my natural state!"</font id="purple">

    http://gentlemencyclists.org/clubhouse
    <font color="purple">"Ya'd think we could just attract ants, like normal people."</font id="purple"></font id="size1">

    http://ravenfamily.org
    "You might remember that 'annoyed' is my natural state!"
    http://gentlemencyclists.org
    "Ya'd think we could just attracts ants, like normal people."
  • ArchcpArchcp Posts: 8,987
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by notanotherusername</i>

    Could there be a new offence of googling whilst driving?
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Not quite, but almost:

    http://www.cyclingplus.co.uk/forum/topi ... _ID=133759

    If I had a baby elephant, it could help me clean the car. If I had a car.
    If I had a baby elephant, it could help me clean the car. If I had a car.
  • dondaredondare Posts: 2,113
    Is someone calling themselves Bonj and being stupid for a joke?


    "da sapienti et addetur ei sapientia doce iustum et festinabit accipere."
    This post contains traces of nuts.
  • ArchcpArchcp Posts: 8,987
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by dondare</i>

    Is someone calling themselves Bonj and being stupid for a joke?


    "da sapienti et addetur ei sapientia doce iustum et festinabit accipere."
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    If it's a fake, it's a damn good one - they've got the vacuous argumentativness just right...

    If I had a baby elephant, it could help me clean the car. If I had a car.
    If I had a baby elephant, it could help me clean the car. If I had a car.
  • Tourist TonyTourist Tony Posts: 8,628
    Shall I dig out the websites again? Those ones that prove that the Earth is flat (and square) and orbited by all other celestial bodies?

    Or just rehash Hydroplates.....

    If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or censored
    If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or censored
    http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=3 ... =3244&v=5K
  • Simon L2Simon L2 Posts: 2,908
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by CometGirl</i>

    Ah, I see Arch beat me to it. Still, probably bears repeating in case he didn't get it the first time...
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    he won't get it the fifth time.

    There's a little drama-ette played out on Tower Bridge these days. Motorbikes and yours truly gather at the northern end. Light turns green. Motorbikes roar off, followed by your h'mble and ob'd'nt servant. Motorbikes deccellerate rapidly <i>except for the dopey guy on the scooter</i>. Motorbike riders and yours truly exchange knowing grins...
  • rothbookrothbook Posts: 943
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Motorbikes deccellerate rapidly except for the dopey guy on the scooter. Motorbike riders and yours truly exchange knowing grins... <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I don't understand this, why decelerate?
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by rothbook</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Motorbikes deccellerate rapidly except for the dopey guy on the scooter. Motorbike riders and yours truly exchange knowing grins... <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I don't understand this, why decelerate?
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Because speed kills.
  • OddballcpOddballcp Posts: 197
    Because of 20 mph enforced speed limit on that section?

    That's a guess.

    http://victoryatseaonline.com/war/kellys.html
    Friends all tried to warn me but I held my head up high...
  • rothbookrothbook Posts: 943
    Oh. Sorry, as you were.
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Poppadoppaloppa Copper</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by rothbook</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Motorbikes deccellerate rapidly except for the dopey guy on the scooter. Motorbike riders and yours truly exchange knowing grins... <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I don't understand this, why decelerate?
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Because speed kills.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I don't trust you at all. You don't have enough posts.

    er...

    What's in my trolley?
    Bikes are traffic.
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