20 limits - legally enforceable

Not Responding · June 2007

On about page 16 of the 60+ page thread, someone states that 20mph limits are not legally enforceable? Where on earth does that idea come from?

I've started a new thread as it seems utterly pointless to tack a serious discussion onto the end of 60 pages of troll baiting.

<hr noshade size="1"><h6><center>Wearing a helmet for normal cycling is pointless in terms of safety and serves only as a vote for compulsion.</h6></center>

The Bosscp · June 2007

Where on earth does the idea that they ARE enforceable come from?
The 20mph signs are basically just a request, not an order.

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Tourist Tony · June 2007

Reference the law then, Bonj. Your opinion has no force.

If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or Dick

Not Responding · June 2007

Trust me, if you regard them in that light, you'll soon get a rude awakening!

<hr noshade size="1"><h6><center>Wearing a helmet for normal cycling is pointless in terms of safety and serves only as a vote for compulsion.</h6></center>

gavintc · June 2007

There are 2 types of speed limit sign in UK. The advisory and the legal. The legal one is white background, black lettering and with a red surrounding circle. The advisory ones can be any style and can be ignored. I suspect that the confusion has arisen because someone has seen an advisory sign in a residential street.

CometGirl · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

Where on earth does the idea that they ARE enforceable come from?
The 20mph signs are basically just a request, not an order.

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<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Er, the Highway Code? As shown here, complete with a pretty picture so even bonj can understand it.

Just a request? That's fabulous. Back when I did criminal law, I met some pretty stupid people with some pretty shite defences, but "the law is just a request" has got to be one of the best I've ever heard. [:D][:D][:D]

speshcp · June 2007

From the FAQ (my italics)
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Will it be enforced and who will do it?

The speed limit will only be lowered where the existing speeds are 24mph or less. It has been found elsewhere that by reducing the speed limit alone with repeater signs as a reminder the average speeds are reduced by 3-4mph. For this reason it is not expected that extensive enforcement will be needed. However, if we find that there are specific and persistent non-compliance issues in some of the roads then the Police will make spot checks and issue speeding fines to offenders.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I think that last bit counts as enforcement, don't you? [;)]<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Will speed cameras be installed?

No, speed cameras are not permitted to be used to enforce a new speed limit.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Whilst that may be the case (anyone wish to clarify?), I think the real reason why no cameras are being set up in addition to the ones on the north/south main roads lies within the Traffic Regulation Orders. Anyone who takes the time to read all of these will rapidly work out that there are a lot of streets which will be subject to the new speed limit. That's a lot of cameras, even if you just used SPECs at the entry/exit points for the 20mph zones.

Out of interest, how does the Council's answer square with the usage of speed cameras in roadworks? Or is the difference that reduced limits in roadworks are temporary?
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Will it be permanent?

It is intended that the new speed limit will be permanent although thorough monitoring of its effectiveness will be carried out and if necessary further measures introduced to ensure compliance.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">To reiterate - because the average speeds in the affected streets are already below 25mph, the expectation is that the new limits will be largely self-enforcing. In other words, drivers in Portsmouth's residential areas are already largely choosing to drive at a speed that is appropriate for narrow streets lined with parked cars.

If monitoring shows that there are still people who cannot be relied upon to drive safely in residential areas then, as it says in the first piece I quoted, external methods of enforcement such as coppers with radar guns, will be used.

That's clear enough, methinks.

<hr noshade size="1">"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein)

ScumOfTheRoad · June 2007

Not Responding,
I believe that there is confusion here.
20mph limits are enforcable - witness the people who have been ticketed for driving over Tower Bridge in London at over that limit.

What is probably being talked about here is "self-enforcement".
From what I've read, all 20mph zones are designed to be self-enforcing,
ie they have traffic calming measures - chicanes, speed humps, build-outs.
The gist of it is that the police will not actively enforce the limits by using speed guns etc. (though they could, and as quited above will if there is persistent speeding).

Cunobelin · June 2007

The Police in Portsmouth are allowing a "self enforcement" period whilst the 20 mph limits are installed and motorists "get used to them"

The way it was / is being done was:

Area selected
Local consultation
Traffic orders placed
Signs put up in advance (and covered)
Enaction of Traffic Orders and unveiling of signs simultaneously to introduce
"Grace period"
A period of "strong" enforcement with speed checks and usual measures of speed enforcement.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Where on earth does the idea that they ARE enforceable come from?
The 20mph signs are basically just a request, not an order.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Just to clear things up:
A Traffic Order is a legal document made by a local authority, under its powers as a highway authority, that enables the local authority to introduce parking restrictions, speed limits, one-way streets, banned turns, disabled parking bays, width restrictions, weight limits, vehicular traffic restrictions, parking bays and to close roads
Failure to comply with the requirements of a traffic order, as indicated by signs or road markings, is an offence that results in prosecution by the Police and/or the local authority.

By using Traffic orders, the Council has ensured that these limits ARE legally binding and enforceable in law.

He that buys land buys many stones.
He that buys flesh buys many bones.
He that buys eggs buys many shells,
But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.
(Unattributed Trad.)

The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by CometGirl

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

Where on earth does the idea that they ARE enforceable come from?
The 20mph signs are basically just a request, not an order.

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<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Er, the Highway Code? As shown here, complete with a pretty picture so even bonj can understand it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Er... it says they are MOSTLY prohibitive. Doesn't say they ALL are.

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AndyGates · June 2007

Spesh, I believe roadworks cameras are safety measures, to ensure the safety of the workers and the drivers negotiating unfamiliar and changing, often narrow, lanes.

No longer looking for a pennyfarthing as I've got some powerbocks instead. Casualty here I come!
It is by will alone I set my ride in motion.

The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spesh

From the FAQ (my italics)
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Will it be enforced and who will do it?

The speed limit will only be lowered where the existing speeds are 24mph or less. It has been found elsewhere that by reducing the speed limit alone with repeater signs as a reminder the average speeds are reduced by 3-4mph. For this reason it is not expected that extensive enforcement will be needed. However, if we find that there are specific and persistent non-compliance issues in some of the roads then the Police will make spot checks and issue speeding fines to offenders.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I think that last bit counts as enforcement, don't you? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think what this means is that they will issue speeding tickets. It doesn't mean that they will be legally enforceabl - i.e. if they issue them, most people will simply pay. But there's no saying whether a ticket simply for exceeding 20mph is going to stand up in court.
i.e., officer issues ticket. Victim receives ticket. Victim contests ticket on the grounds that 20mph limits aren't legally enforceable. Authorities have no option but to cancel ticket.

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ScumOfTheRoad · June 2007

Just what 20mph limits are not enforcable then?
And why would "the authorities" have to cancel a ticket?
A 20mph limit has the same status as a 30mph limit.

Go on then - drive at 50mph over Tower Bridge in London and see if the ticket is ripped up when you do your barrack-room lawyer act.

I repeat - you tell me what 20mph limits, created following a local authority traffic regulation order, are not legally enforceable. Go on. I'm waiting.

ScumOfTheRoad · June 2007

That's funny. The "authorities" here - in this case the City of London Police - have not ripped up these tickets on speeding in a 20mph zone.

http://www.cityoflondon.police.uk/news/ ... 2.2007.htm

Hmmm.

Cunobelin · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">i.e., officer issues ticket. Victim receives ticket. Victim contests ticket on the grounds that 20mph limits aren't legally enforceable. Authorities have no option but to cancel ticket.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Or the alternative scenario:

Officer issues ticket. Speeding motorist receives ticket. Speeding motorist contests ticket on the grounds that 20mph limits aren't legally enforceable. Authorities point out that it was introduced as a Traffic Order, and is therefore legally enforceable, hence the ticket. Driver has no option but to back down, pay fine and now costs as well.

(Authorities laugh at motorist's stupidity and take bets that he got the idea the speed limit wasn't enforceable from a disreputable, very seedy and exceedingly dodgy pro-speeding website.)

PS - How did the driver breaking the law become "a victim"?
Is a rapist a "victim"?
Is a shoplifter "a victim"?

He that buys land buys many stones.
He that buys flesh buys many bones.
He that buys eggs buys many shells,
But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.
(Unattributed Trad.)

The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ScumOfTheRoad

Just what 20mph limits are not enforcable then?
And why would "the authorities" have to cancel a ticket?
A 20mph limit has the same status as a 30mph limit.

Go on then - drive at 50mph over Tower Bridge in London and see if the ticket is ripped up when you do your barrack-room lawyer act.

I repeat - you tell me what 20mph limits, created following a local authority traffic regulation order, are not legally enforceable. Go on. I'm waiting.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ah, no - it'd probably be still valid if you were driving at over 30mph in a "20mph zone". It's just the way I read it, you can't ever be successfully prosecuted for speeding if you're not going over 30mph ... I don't KNOW this to be the case, I just don't think someone would have posted such info if he didn't know that himself, which is what makes me think it to be correct. Like I say, I don't know it to be the case, so I haven't got any evidence, but if you've got any evidence to the contrary, then I'd be interested to see it.

*waits a long time*

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The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cunobelin

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">i.e., officer issues ticket. Victim receives ticket. Victim contests ticket on the grounds that 20mph limits aren't legally enforceable. Authorities have no option but to cancel ticket.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Or the alternative scenario:

Officer issues ticket. Speeding motorist receives ticket. Speeding motorist contests ticket on the grounds that 20mph limits aren't legally enforceable. Authorities point out that it was introduced as a Traffic Order, and is therefore legally enforceable, hence the ticket. Driver has no option but to back down, pay fine and now costs as well.

(Authorities laugh at motorist's stupidity and take bets that he got the idea the speed limit wasn't enforceable from a disreputable, very seedy and exceedingly dodgy pro-speeding website.)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Well if you think that's what's going to happen, think that.
I'm just saying I think the opposite.
There's countless petty reasons why speeding tickets have to be cancelled that nanny-state do-gooders don't like, and this is probably one of them.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cunobelin

PS - How did the driver breaking the law become "a victim"?
Is a rapist a "victim"?
Is a shoplifter "a victim"?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
If you get stiffed for a œ60 fine when you haven't caused any danger or suffering whatsoever to anyone I would think that qualifies you as the victim.

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Not Responding · June 2007

I think my question has been answered.

I wondered where the idea had come from that 20 limits were unenforceable. It appears that I hadn't accounted for the "workings" of a mind that has passed well beyond barking mad.

<hr noshade size="1"><h6><center>Wearing a helmet for normal cycling is pointless in terms of safety and serves only as a vote for compulsion.</h6></center>

The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ScumOfTheRoad

That's funny. The "authorities" here - in this case the City of London Police - have not ripped up these tickets on speeding in a 20mph zone.

http://www.cityoflondon.police.uk/news/ ... 2.2007.htm

Hmmm.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Well they would say that...
I think that's probably put out by the police to make people obey the 20mph signs, isn't it... but even if it is true, that's in london. Whole different police force. Different by-laws. I thought we were talking about portsmouth... it's going to take them ages to get the same byelaws implemented that london's got.

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Mister Paul · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ScumOfTheRoad

Just what 20mph limits are not enforcable then?
And why would "the authorities" have to cancel a ticket?
A 20mph limit has the same status as a 30mph limit.

Go on then - drive at 50mph over Tower Bridge in London and see if the ticket is ripped up when you do your barrack-room lawyer act.

I repeat - you tell me what 20mph limits, created following a local authority traffic regulation order, are not legally enforceable. Go on. I'm waiting.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ah, no - it'd probably be still valid if you were driving at over 30mph in a "20mph zone". It's just the way I read it, you can't ever be successfully prosecuted for speeding if you're not going over 30mph ... I don't KNOW this to be the case, I just don't think someone would have posted such info if he didn't know that himself, which is what makes me think it to be correct. Like I say, I don't know it to be the case, so I haven't got any evidence, but if you've got any evidence to the contrary, then I'd be interested to see it.

*waits a long time*
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I've highlighted the problem areas there for you.

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Mister Paul · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

Well if you think that's what's going to happen, think that.
I'm just saying I think the opposite.
There's countless petty reasons why speeding tickets have to be cancelled that nanny-state do-gooders don't like, and this is probably one of them.

If you get stiffed for a œ60 fine when you haven't caused any danger or suffering whatsoever to anyone I would think that qualifies you as the victim.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

...and again...

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What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

Mister Paul · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

Well they would say that...
I think that's probably put out by the police to make people obey the 20mph signs, isn't it... but even if it is true, that's in london. Whole different police force. Different by-laws. I thought we were talking about portsmouth... it's going to take them ages to get the same byelaws implemented that london's got.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

...and again...

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

Cunobelin · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Well if you think that's what's going to happen, think that.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Is it any more unlikely than your scenario?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">it's going to take them ages to get the same byelaws implemented that london's got.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

In case you haven't actually read the previous post I will make it simpler for you....

Portsmouth County Council have introduced an legal instrument called a TRAFFIC ORDER

These are ALREADY IN PLACE

They are ENFORCEABLE IN LAW

It's not going to take ages to implement - it is already implemented in fiull. The " period of grace" is exactly that.

He that buys land buys many stones.
He that buys flesh buys many bones.
He that buys eggs buys many shells,
But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.
(Unattributed Trad.)

ScumOfTheRoad · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[
Ah, no - it'd probably be still valid if you were driving at over 30mph in a "20mph zone". It's just the way I read it, you can't ever be successfully prosecuted for speeding if you're not going over 30mph ... I don't KNOW this to be the case, I just don't think someone would have posted such info if he didn't know that himself, which is what makes me think it to be correct. Like I say, I don't know it to be the case, so I haven't got any evidence, but if you've got any evidence to the contrary, then I'd be interested to see it.

*waits a long time*
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm not sure the above even makes sense in English.
What the hell are you trying to say?

A 20mph limit, created by a traffic enforcement order equals a 20mph limit.
As the people who have driven at more than 20mph over Tower Bridge have found, as referenced by the link I posted.

There are many other 20mph limits - for instance in many "Home Zones".
I do not have a list of the names of drivers who have been ticketed I'm afraid.

And where did you pick up this information what you won't be prosecuted if you do less than 30 in a 20 mph zone?
Reference please.

ScumOfTheRoad · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Ah, no - it'd probably be still valid if you were driving at over 30mph in a "20mph zone". It's just the way I read it, you can't ever be successfully prosecuted for speeding if you're not going over 30mph ... I don't KNOW this to be the case, I just don't think someone would have posted such info if he didn't know that himself, which is what makes me think it to be correct.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Tell you what mate, when I'm out driving in my car and it comes to figuring out a speed limit, I can either

a) believe the red and white signs hung at the side of the road by the local council

b) believe a bloke called The Boss on an internet forum, who repeats advice that "someone" has posted.

I think I'll stick with option (a) if you don't mind.

ScumOfTheRoad · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
*waits a long time*

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Here we are then:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1999/uksi_19991608_en.pdf

You're really cluthcing at straws here.
A 20mph limt is a 20mph limit - no court in the land would entertain a defence of "I read somewhere on te Internet that someone said I could go a 30mph and I wouldn't get done".

Let's apply that same reasoning to other offences?
I declare that it is OK to hit someone, as long as you do not use a sword. Let's see how long that lasts you when the police turn up.

ScumOfTheRoad · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">but even if it is true, that's in london. Whole different police force. Different by-laws. I thought we were talking about portsmouth... it's going to take them ages to get the same byelaws implemented that london's got.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What by-laws? What in the name of the wee man are you talking about?

I reference yet again
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1999/uksi_19991608_en.pdf
This is a statutory instrument amending the 1984 Road Traffic Regulation Act, ie it is a national UK law.
It allows local authorities - ANY local authority - to create 20mph zones by issuing a Traffic Regulation Order.
Prior to this statutory instrument the consent of the secretary of state was needed. It is no longer.

So what has this got to do with byelaws? Nothing.

ScumOfTheRoad · June 2007

Here we go. Google is my friend.
http://www.portsmouth.gov.uk/living/609.html

And one of the Traffic Regulation Orders,
publicly available:
http://www.portsmouth.gov.uk/living/609.html

No reference there that I can see to a local bye-law.

You have six weeks from the 13th June to object to it on the grounds that it is not within the powers that are conferred by the Road Traffic Regulation Act.
Go on.

The Bosscp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ScumOfTheRoad

And where did you pick up this information what you won't be prosecuted if you do less than 30 in a 20 mph zone?
Reference please.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
In the other thread about portsmouth. Someone posted something about them not being enforceable, and somebody got worried that it might be true and decided to garner support from their fellow speed-camera loving friends in order to help convince themselves otherwise.

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Cunobelin · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Someone posted something about them not being enforceable,<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Just shows why you need to read the "evidence" - have we convinced you yet of the legality (and enforceability) of 20 mph zones?

He that buys land buys many stones.
He that buys flesh buys many bones.
He that buys eggs buys many shells,
But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.
(Unattributed Trad.)

Mister Paul · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

In the other thread about portsmouth. Someone posted something about them not being enforceable, and somebody got worried that it might be true and decided to garner support from their fellow speed-camera loving friends in order to help convince themselves otherwise.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

...and again...

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20 limits - legally enforceable

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