Our NHS is the best in the world.

simoncp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jaded

Dentistry is different.

It is(was) not considered essential treatment and that is why it is outside the main core of the NHS.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dentistry is not essential? Dentistry was never originally considered to be outside the 'main core' of the NHS. It has been abandoned, gradually at first and now almost totally, by the NHS because the NHS can't recruit the labour required to carry out the work. Who is to say this won't happen with the rest of the services that the NHS originally promised us?

We have seen NHS dentists move to the private sector when it suits them. Whatever happened to their vocation? Did it ever exist?

Jaded · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by simoncp

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jaded

Dentistry is different.

It is(was) not considered essential treatment and that is why it is outside the main core of the NHS.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dentistry is not essential? Dentistry was never originally considered to be outside the 'main core' of the NHS. It has been abandoned, gradually at first and now almost totally, by the NHS because the NHS can't recruit the labour required to carry out the work. Who is to say this won't happen with the rest of the services that the NHS originally promised us?

We have seen NHS dentists move to the private sector when it suits them. Whatever happened to their vocation? Did it ever exist?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Could you explain then why completely different discussions with Bevin took place over dentistry when the NHS was set up?

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[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one

simoncp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jaded

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by simoncp

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jaded

Dentistry is different.

It is(was) not considered essential treatment and that is why it is outside the main core of the NHS.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dentistry is not essential? Dentistry was never originally considered to be outside the 'main core' of the NHS. It has been abandoned, gradually at first and now almost totally, by the NHS because the NHS can't recruit the labour required to carry out the work. Who is to say this won't happen with the rest of the services that the NHS originally promised us?

We have seen NHS dentists move to the private sector when it suits them. Whatever happened to their vocation? Did it ever exist?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Could you explain then why completely different discussions with Bevin took place over dentistry when the NHS was set up?

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[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I expect that the government had discussions with dentists about the forthcoming NHS dental service, and had discussions with doctors about the forthcoming NHS medical service. What is so odd about that?

NHS dentistry was free at the point of delivery at the start of the NHS. Then it started charging and now it has disappeared completely from large areas of the country. There is absolutely no evidence that dentistry was not regarded as a core provision of the NHS at the start in 1948. The NHS has largely failed in its promise to provide dentistry.

Unknown · June 2007

Going back to the threads title....
When I was a student nurse back in 1992 the head of the school of nursing had been researching the "Best Health Service" in the Wolrd with a team for a few years.
The BEST they said was in Cuba!

http://s11.invisionfree.com/Tramp

stelvio · June 2007

Cuba, yeah, right.
If I have the choice, when I get ill, I will try to choose America, and definitely not Cuba.

Jaded · June 2007

...or the fact that the dentists were the last group to have an agreement signed, and in the last meeting with them Bevin was so desparate to have the agreement that he could announce he agreed to the dentists terms.

The dentists have never been equivalent to Doctors.

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[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one

QuickDraw · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stelvio

Cuba, yeah, right.
If I have the choice, when I get ill, I will try to choose America, and definitely not Cuba.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Why? Do you have some ideological objection to being treated by communist doctors?

Infant Mortality: Cuba 6.04 USA 6.37 deaths per 1000 live births
Life Expectancy: Cuba 77.08 USA 78

Not much in it really is there? And considering the huge financial advantage the USA have you would expect them to be miles ahead of poor wee Cuba so it wouldn't be a stretch to claim that Cuba has the best health system in the world would it? Castro might well have got plenty seriously wrong but you have to admit they've done excellently on healthcare.

hevipedal · June 2007

I'd rather have our system, where if I get injured in an accident they will do all in their power to save me and to give me the best treatment available.
As opposed to the USA where I might get picked up by an ambulance and taken to hospital - but the first question will be, not "Where does it hurt?" but "Do you have insurance?"

It might not be perfect but the staff in the NHS are generally trying to supply a good service to people in need.

 Hevipedal 
Phrase of the week - I've got a bike. You can ride it if you like.
It's got a basket, a bell that rings and
Things to make it look good.
I'd give it to you if I could, but I borrowed it.
 
51yrs old and Proud of it - Made it to 87kg 2 more to go for the target.
Pedal to Paris Sept 2007

stelvio · June 2007

Originally posted by QuickDraw
Why? Do you have some ideological objection to being treated by communist doctors? 

No, not all.
Strange question.
Do you object to being treated by capitalists ?

QuickDraw · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stelvio

Originally posted by QuickDraw
Why? Do you have some ideological objection to being treated by communist doctors?

No, not all.
Strange question.
Do you object to being treated by capitalists ?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Why is it a strange question? You said you'd choose to be treated in America over Cuba despite Cuba having the reputation of having the best health service in the world. I was just wondering what objections you could have to being treated there, an ideological objection was the best I could come up with.

For the record if I'm ill I won't be objecting to any doctors on grounds of ideology, religion, race, sexual orientation etc.

stelvio · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by QuickDraw

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stelvio

Cuba, yeah, right.
If I have the choice, when I get ill, I will try to choose America, and definitely not Cuba.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Why? Do you have some ideological objection to being treated by communist doctors?
Infant Mortality: Cuba 6.04 USA 6.37 deaths per 1000 live births
Life Expectancy: Cuba 77.08 USA 78
Not much in it really is there? And considering the huge financial advantage the USA have you would expect them to be miles ahead of poor wee Cuba so it wouldn't be a stretch to claim that Cuba has the best health system in the world would it? Castro might well have got plenty seriously wrong but you have to admit they've done excellently on healthcare.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You seem to be answering the wrong question; not being an infant I am not terribly interested in Infant mortality.
My interest is in where I would get the best treatment if I got ill; have you got any comparative data, between the USA and Cuba, for survival after heart attacks or cancer diagnosis, for example ?
My suspicion is that those big hospitals in Boston, full of expensive shiny machines and expensive drugs, might just have a better success rate with the sort of problem I am likely to get, than the dilapidated and largely drug-free equivalents in Havana.
It hardly fills one with confidence in the local expertise that castro had a surgeon flown in from Spain.

simoncp · June 2007

Everything is wonderful in Cuba just like everything was wonderful in the Soviet Empire countries while the Iron Curtain was still around.

We'll find out the truth about Cuba when it becomes a free country, just as we found out the truth about Eastern Europe when the Russians retreated.

simoncp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jaded

...or the fact that the dentists were the last group to have an agreement signed, and in the last meeting with them Bevin was so desparate to have the agreement that he could announce he agreed to the dentists terms.

The dentists have never been equivalent to Doctors.

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[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

True. Dentists do teeth, doctors don't. The simple fact remains that the NHS provided dental care free at the point of delivery in 1948, just like all other medical treatment in the NHS, and there is no evidence that the government intended dentistry to be at the fringe of the NHS and not at its 'core'. The NHS soon started charging for it and in recent years has abandoned any responsibilty for NHS dentistry provision in large parts of the country. This is a failure by the NHS. Go to see the queues of desperate people in pain queueing outside Manchester University Dental School on any morning to see just what a disgarce the NHS has allowed its dentisty service to become. I expect it happens at every dental school in the country.

Regulator · June 2007

Actually, New Zealand has (or rather had) the best NHS - and had it 30 years before the UK did. First NHS in the world.

___________________________
Bugger elephants - capabari are cuter!

Jaded · June 2007

"there is no evidence that the government intended dentistry to be at the fringe of the NHS and not at its 'core'."

How do you know this?

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[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one

simoncp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jaded

"there is no evidence that the government intended dentistry to be at the fringe of the NHS and not at its 'core'."

How do you know this?

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[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

How do you know otherwise? You are suggesting that dentistry is and never was supposed to be a 'core' part of the NHS. I've never heard anything like that, and can't find evidence. The history books tell us that dental fees, along with opticians fees, were introduced shortly after the start of the NHS not because these services were ever originally regarded as anything but full NHS services, but because of shortage of cash and to reduce the huge demand. Shortage of cash was also a reason that prescription charges were introduced some years later on.

NHS dentistry was free at the point of delivery in 1948. As far as dentistry goes, the word 'national' in NHS doesn't cover my area, as it is impossible to get an NHS dentist round here. I wouldn't mind betting there are more NHS dentistry administrators working in their office block near Old Trafford cricket ground than there are NHS dentists around here.

Given the current state of NHS dentistry we can be certain that the government would have told if NHS dentistry was never a 'core' part of NHS provision which we never really had a full entitlement to, and it hasn't. Face it, the NHS has failed to provide dentistry as it set out to do. What a mess.

Simon L2 · June 2007

each one of us has a story to tell. Mine is of idiot (and fatal) misdiagnosis at GP level and a mixture of incompetence and skill beyond measure in hospitals. And each of us will have a tale from overseas. Mine is that until you've been to a 'free' hospital in the US you have no idea how lousy healthcare can get.

What strikes me in a general sort of way has been alluded to above. Medecine in general practice has been dumbed down. It's all risk assessment and targets - not a million miles away from the test results regime in state education. I now expect no more insight from my GP than I would from a local authority highways engineer. Is this a peculiarly British thing? And is the BMA the real villain of the piece?

redcogs · June 2007

You are so right SimonL2. i have been seriously let down by the doctor tier within the NHS, not, i am convinced, for reasons associated with a lack of basic skills, but to do with the way doctors are being forced to mis-apply their talents by economic and targeting considerations.

A big plus, on the other hand, was the excellent treatment i received at the hands of the surgeons and other staff once it became obvious what the medical condition was.

please look up to the stars.. ***

workers_united · June 2007

I'm getting seriously worried; I think I might agree with redcogs on this one [:)]. It's not just the NHS that is suffering from the target culture, a lot of industry, private and public, has been subjected to this nonsense by a never-ending stream of management consultancies. These groups were used by many companies in the 1990s (and earlier) to reduce costs and improve performance. My experiences with the aftermath has been that these exercises focussed on reducing staffing levels and monitoring only short term objectives. Over a longer time frame, costs have risen because they have had to recruit back into the "unnecessary" jobs and the short term nature of the objectives have resulted in the companies losing their grip against foreign (mainly Asian-based) competitors. Any fool can take out 20% of the staff cost in the short term but the company ends up paying for it later. Of course the Directors of these companies get rewarded in annual bonuses and many have buggered off before the true impact of their errors has emerged. The management consultancies (who take their fees up-front and don't share any of the risks) have found a new hunting ground in Bliar's government and have applied their vast industrial knowledge (i.e. flash PowerPoint presentations) to solving the problems of the NHS etc. resulting in the associated loss or morale, hiring and firing and ludicrous management/budgetary decisions to meet the short term targets.

redcogs · June 2007

redcogs has guided many towards a more rational view.

Its just that they won't always admit it..

Patrick, ankev and spire for instance. They each used to contribute very right wing nonsense. These days its just right wing nonsense.

The less enlightened put the shift down to Cameron's ascendancy in the nasty Party, but we know better.

please look up to the stars.. ***

workers_united · June 2007

redcogs If you don't keep taking the pills I'm sure your current rational moment will be short lived. [:p]

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

redcogs has guided many towards a more rational view.

Its just that they won't always admit it..

Patrick, ankev and spire for instance. They each used to contribute very right wing nonsense. These days its just right wing nonsense.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This could be due to redders seeing sense and starting to drift our way. [:p] Never fear, the centre ground is a large camp and converts are always welcome.[;)]

Our NHS is the best in the world.

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