Our NHS is the best in the world.

Axel_Knutt · June 2007

Did you hear the guy who had had TB on Radio 4 on Saturday morning?

The doctors had been telling him he'd got laryngitis for weeks and months, so eventually his father in Austria told him to go over there for treatment. Within 45 minutes of seeing the Austrian doctor he was in a hospital isolation ward, where they told him if he'd left it another week he'd have been dead. By that time he had lost 4 stone in weight, could no longer stand or walk, broken 3 ribs coughing, and infected 36 other people

ankev1 · June 2007

That's all well and good, but did the NHS doctors manage to meet their treatment targets, which as we all know is what really matters.

stelvio · June 2007

My friend was treated for cancer for years by German Docs, including chemo and major abdominal surgery. She turned out to have some obscure granulomatous disease, discovered when she came to the UK.
Hence all German medicine must be rubbish, and the NHS is brilliant ? ( Actually German medicine is pretty rubbish ).

Mister Paul · June 2007

My best mate is blind. He's been blind since his mom threw him at a wall when he was a toddler, and damaged his optic nerve.

He went on a speaking tour of the USA a few years ago. At a college in Alabama he was told by some excited professor that they could assess him using their advanced, best-in-the-world processes, and could quite possibly do something about his vision.

Cue my friend's excitement about the possibility that his lifelong hopes may soon be realised. This continued all the way through the investigations, until they got to the end and proudly told him exactly what the NHS had told him some 20 years earlier.

From what I'm seeing more and more the problem over here seems to be getting through the GP system to a specialist, who would have more chance of getting the right diagnosis. I'd be interested to see how this compares with other countries.

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

ankev1 · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stelvio

My friend was treated for cancer for years by German Docs, including chemo and major abdominal surgery. She turned out to have some obscure granulomatous disease, discovered when she came to the UK.
Hence all German medicine must be rubbish, and the NHS is brilliant ? ( Actually German medicine is pretty rubbish ).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You seem to have had very negative experiences of Germany. I've found the GPs here to be streets ahead of their NHS counterparts.

Rigid Raider · June 2007

My GP here is frighteningly inexperienced and looks everything up on his computer, including symptoms. I would love to have his software; I could set myself up as a Dr. and earn a packet.

Global TH1.5 Ti hardtail.

simoncp · June 2007

Yes, and we've got the best policemen, soldiers, televison and legal system too.

stelvio · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ankev1
You seem to have had very negative experiences of Germany. I've found the GPs here to be streets ahead of their NHS counterparts.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

A good friend of mine is a GP in Dresden; he went back after ten years in the UK; he is quite clear that the UK was better in his opinion, though the NHS clearly not perfect.
We have a wide experience of German medicine in my family.
My sister-in-law was given a third degree tear by Professor Blah-Blah at what should have been a perfectly normal delivery. Her child is now six, and they have still failed to diagnose an obvious case of ADHD ( this is an american disease and hence not found in Germany ). Her father was given an infected hip implant. My sibling had some perfectly harmless moles removed and has been left with scars that look like something out of Frankenstein. I could go on....

Archcp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Axel_Knutt

Did you hear the guy who had had TB on Radio 4 on Saturday morning?

The doctors had been telling him he'd got laryngitis for weeks and months, so eventually his father in Austria told him to go over there for treatment. Within 45 minutes of seeing the Austrian doctor he was in a hospital isolation ward, where they told him if he'd left it another week he'd have been dead. By that time he had lost 4 stone in weight, could no longer stand or walk, broken 3 ribs coughing, and infected 36 other people
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, I heard it. You seem to have forgotten that the point was made that he went private, and that if he'd gone with the NHS, they'd have spotted it sooner, as they see more cases among the less priveleged...

If I had a baby elephant, it could help me clean the car. If I had a car.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arch

Yes, I heard it. You seem to have forgotten that the point was made that he went private, and that if he'd gone with the NHS, they'd have spotted it sooner, as they see more cases among the less priveleged...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's an interesting point. I read that ambitious young surgeons in the USA fight to get junior jobs in the hospitals in the worst areas as they have a big workload of stabbings, shooting, baseball battings etc. and therefore get a huge amount of experience very quickly.

Ian Loveday · June 2007

The system the doctors or any other health care proffesional works in is largely a red herring. Its the quality of the individual that counts, some are good some are bad and most are somewhere in between.

www.sheffieldphoenix.org.uk

stelvio · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ian Loveday

The system the doctors or any other health care proffesional works in is largely a red herring. Its the quality of the individual that counts, some are good some are bad and most are somewhere in between.
www.sheffieldphoenix.org.uk
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Disagree; individual abilities/skills/morale are clearly important, but German medicine is bad because of the system; most of the individual German Docs I know are exceptionally capable individuals, hence become a great asset to the NHS when they leave Germany.

Mister Paul · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ian Loveday

The system the doctors or any other health care proffesional works in is largely a red herring. Its the quality of the individual that counts, some are good some are bad and most are somewhere in between.

www.sheffieldphoenix.org.uk

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It's also about management. A good firm knows how to recruit and manage good staff.

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

thereisnospooncp · June 2007

May I suggest watching the new Michael Moore film "Sicko" about Universal Health Care.

http://lifeonthetube.blogspot.com/

ant41 · June 2007

As Mister Paul says, the problem is indeed getting access to the treatment. When you have a private operation, the surgeon is exactly the same, with the same skills - the only difference when you are on the table is who is paying. In terms of trauma (as opposed to woolly diagnoses that could throw anyone) the UK is the best in the world - case in point, Northern Ireland, among the best at treating gunshot wounds.

On the other hand, you have the consultants insisting that their SHOs and Registrars assist on private operations when they should be doing their NHS ward rounds . . . you can't say no to your consultant.

Bonking is fun . . . but not on the bike.

stelvio · June 2007

On the other hand, you have the consultants insisting that their SHOs and Registrars assist on private operations when they should be doing their NHS ward rounds . . . you can't say no to your consultant.

Did you just make this up, or was it something you got out of a socialist worker christmas cracker ?

Anonymous · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ant41

As Mister Paul says, the problem is indeed getting access to the treatment. When you have a private operation, the surgeon is exactly the same, with the same skills - the only difference when you are on the table is who is paying. In terms of trauma (as opposed to woolly diagnoses that could throw anyone) the UK is the best in the world - case in point, Northern Ireland, among the best at treating gunshot wounds.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Interesting - technically they do have the same skills - but I was listening to a dentist friend of mine describing the difference in effort they put in when treating an nhs and a private patient and it was significant...to my ears at least.

__________________
Mediocrity is for winners

Unkraut · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stelvio

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ankev1
You seem to have had very negative experiences of Germany. I've found the GPs here to be streets ahead of their NHS counterparts.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

A good friend of mine is a GP in Dresden; he went back after ten years in the UK; he is quite clear that the UK was better in his opinion, though the NHS clearly not perfect.
We have a wide experience of German medicine in my family.
My sister-in-law was given a third degree tear by Professor Blah-Blah at what should have been a perfectly normal delivery. Her child is now six, and they have still failed to diagnose an obvious case of ADHD ( this is an american disease and hence not found in Germany ). Her father was given an infected hip implant. My sibling had some perfectly harmless moles removed and has been left with scars that look like something out of Frankenstein. I could go on....

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
We've clashed on this theme before! Our experience is that at least as far as waiting for treatment is concerned, the German system is better. Whether or not the treatment you get once admitted is better, frankly I don't know. You almost get the feeling of being 'over-treated' here! It is true that the German system has had to make up for a certain amount (actually quite a lot) of NHS neglect, but has not always produced a cure (a bit vague, but avoids lengthy life histories). NHS dentistry is particularly naff. The German system is better in that you get access to specialist treatment without having to go through your GP, but they are trying to change that. The doctors are campaigning against this, arguing that patients don't want a system like the English one with managers deciding when and if you get treatment via waiting lists. My English hackles really rise at seeing that, I must admit, but having watched relatives 'wait' until it was too late, or else go private spending money they could ill afford, I suppose I cannot blame them.
Of course there is a problem with giving personal experiences on both sides of this discussion. Friends of ours moved from Kent to the Bristol area, since when their daughters have been diagnosed with a long-standing heart murmur and diabetes, both of which were not picked up in Kent. So within the national system there is a variety in the level of care.
As for ADHS - topical! Our neighbours' kids have been diagnosed with this, but I am sceptical of its existence, something which has not improved neighbourly relations!

trustysteed · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stelvio
they have still failed to diagnose an obvious case of ADHD ( this is an american disease and hence not found in Germany <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

i don't think it's limited to america. it's a common disease worldwide caused purely by rubbish parenting and a lack of discipline in today's politically-correct driven world.

smack the brat's arse when they're being naughty, ffs.

today's baby elephants are tomorrow's circus heroes

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Kirstie

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ant41

As Mister Paul says, the problem is indeed getting access to the treatment. When you have a private operation, the surgeon is exactly the same, with the same skills - the only difference when you are on the table is who is paying. In terms of trauma (as opposed to woolly diagnoses that could throw anyone) the UK is the best in the world - case in point, Northern Ireland, among the best at treating gunshot wounds.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Interesting - technically they do have the same skills - but I was listening to a dentist friend of mine describing the difference in effort they put in when treating an nhs and a private patient and it was significant...to my ears at least.

__________________
Mediocrity is for winners
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dentistry is different though. You will get different treatment, teeth pulled rather than crowned for example. You should never go NHS for dentistry as it isn't free anyway, just cheaper, but what is offer can differ greatly.

Operations are the same though. I had choice of private or NHS for 2 ops I have had this year. The same surgeon used for either. Just get a nicer room, choice of appointment times, better food etc,. from private.

stelvio · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Unkraut[/i
As for ADHS - topical! Our neighbours' kids have been diagnosed with this, but I am sceptical of its existence, something which has not improved neighbourly relations!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

One of life's little ironies: a friend of mine is a child psychiatrist; he is German and hence trained somewhere that is as ignorant of ADHD as you apparently are, and now spends his working life treating ADHD.

Mister Paul · June 2007

One of our boys is due an op. The consultant said that there's no point us going private (we have cover) because he can do it quicker on the NHS. And we don't have to pay any excess.

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

stelvio · June 2007

i don't think it's limited to america. it's a common disease worldwide caused purely by rubbish parenting and a lack of discipline in today's politically-correct driven world.
smack the brat's arse when they're being naughty, ffs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adhd

"ADHD is a developmental disorder that largely is neurological in nature."
"Twin studies indicate that the disorder is highly heritable and that genetics contribute for about three quarters of the total ADHD population. "

Unkraut · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stelvio

i don't think it's limited to america. it's a common disease worldwide caused purely by rubbish parenting and a lack of discipline in today's politically-correct driven world.
smack the brat's arse when they're being naughty, ffs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adhd

"ADHD is a developmental disorder that largely is neurological in nature."
"Twin studies indicate that the disorder is highly heritable and that genetics contribute for about three quarters of the total ADHD population. "
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Saying that I am sceptical of the existence of ADHD and its varients does not mean that I deny there is a problem. However, my first port of call when there are these kinds of behavioural problems is not ritalin, but firstly acknowledge that children are badly behaved, check what is happening at home in case that is messing the children up (absence of discipline, divorce), and in particular consider a change of diet. The latter can work wonders! TV/computer games could also be a contribution to this.

If I had an axe to grind, it would be excusing bad behaviour by blaming it on an 'illness' rather than looking for where the real causes might be. This might explain why people get so defensive about this.
If medical science comes up with something more objectively identifiable, then I will change my mind, it is not set in concrete. But I am sure the majority of cases where this is diagnosed could be dealt with other than by behaviour-modifying drugs.

redcogs · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Operations are the same though. I had choice of private or NHS for 2 ops I have had this year. The same surgeon used for either. Just get a nicer room, choice of appointment times, better food etc,. from private.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

i'm told that the usual route for the lobotomy is through the skull Joe. Presumably, when they had to perform the second attempt, they 'went in' via an existing orifice?

please look up to the stars.. ***

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Operations are the same though. I had choice of private or NHS for 2 ops I have had this year. The same surgeon used for either. Just get a nicer room, choice of appointment times, better food etc,. from private.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

i'm told that the usual route for the lobotomy is through the skull Joe. Presumably, when they had to perform the second attempt, they 'went in' via an existing orifice?

please look up to the stars.. ***
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I haven't had a lobotomy, or at least I don't think I have. I must admit I haven't felt the same after the op...

Mister Paul · June 2007

So there's another reason for your vacant stare then Joe?

Bird flu? [;)]

__________________________________________________________
What we need is a new, national White Bicycle Plan

flattythehurdler · June 2007

They might use an existing orifice to do your lobotomy redders, but they'd have to get through your vocal chords first.

[;)]

Dan

simoncp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

Dentistry is different though. You will get different treatment, teeth pulled rather than crowned for example. You should never go NHS for dentistry as it isn't free anyway, just cheaper, but what is offer can differ greatly.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dentistry is not different. We are often told by that NHS medical treatment is as good as private, but as we are told that by the government which is responsible for running the NHS, or employees of the NHS, these assurances are as useful as adverts from an beer company telling us that their lager is the best.

Better to look for independent evidence. People who are in a financial position to choose between NHS and private provision, where that choice exists, choose private treatment more and more.

State services such as housing and education are other services shunned by those who can afford private. Health care is no different.

Jaded · June 2007

Dentistry is different.

It is(was) not considered essential treatment and that is why it is outside the main core of the NHS.

--
[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by simoncp

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

Dentistry is different though. You will get different treatment, teeth pulled rather than crowned for example. You should never go NHS for dentistry as it isn't free anyway, just cheaper, but what is offer can differ greatly.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dentistry is not different. We are often told by that NHS medical treatment is as good as private, but as we are told that by the government which is responsible for running the NHS, or employees of the NHS, these assurances are as useful as adverts from an beer company telling us that their lager is the best.

Better to look for independent evidence. People who are in a financial position to choose between NHS and private provision, where that choice exists, choose private treatment more and more.

State services such as housing and education are other services shunned by those who can afford private. Health care is no different.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think you have misread what I said. I am saying NHS treatment is lesser, i.e pulling out teeth rather than going in for expensive repair work.

Whereas when having an operation in a hospital no shortcuts are taken on the NHS operating table. The advantage with private is the pre and post op experience.

Our NHS is the best in the world.

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