political correctness and reality tv

Archcp · June 2007

Thought occured to me the other day.. Bear with me...

These days, one of the gripes people have when they moan about Political Correctness, is that kids aren't allowed to lose anymore - school sports (assuming they play any) and competitions all have to give prizes for all, no one can be allowed to win in case it upsets others etc... You can't be 'wrong', only differently 'right' - that sort of thing. (I can't comment on if this is actually true, no having anything to go with kids, so if it's not true, the whole argument falls down)

At the same time, the nation seems to be obsessed with, and liberally supplied with, TV shows in which people are seen to lose, one by one, often in a humiliating way - either voted out, or 'fired' with a putdown...

Could it be that the less people experience losing in real life (well, school anyway), the happier they are to see it happening to other people? If people experienced more losing (or just more competition) in life, would the taste for this sort of stuff wane? Or are reality shows just a fashion we're stuck with?

Just one of those thoughts you have with time on your hands... Any opinions?

If I had a baby elephant, it could help me clean the car. If I had a car.

Unknown · June 2007

Arch is right. My view is that if children are not allowed to be highly competitive as children, it densensitises them and they play out games with TV proxies in a rather cruel manner. I was a highly competitive youngster, but because you inevitably end up losing many times, it teaches you not just about yourself, but how to treat others with respect and sportsmanship - both of which are absent on these revolting reality programs.

Tourist Tony · June 2007

I would suggest it also teaches you that if you can't expect always to win, you learn to enjoy the "game" for itself.

If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or Dick

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Patrick Stevens

Arch is right. My view is that if children are not allowed to be highly competitive as children, it densensitises them and they play out games with TV proxies in a rather cruel manner. I was a highly competitive youngster, but because you inevitably end up losing many times, it teaches you not just about yourself, but how to treat others with respect and sportsmanship - both of which are absent on these revolting reality programs.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Probably agree, but I need to lose something first. Could explain my treatment of others though[:)]

Unkraut · June 2007

There certainly is a contradiction between the school 'prizes for all' never let anyone think badly about themselves mentality (even if they really ought to because they aren't very good at something) and the humiliation seen on some reality shows. I dislike reality shows intensely because of the demeaning nature of them. They get shown over here as well. The German pop idol equivalent is particularly bad at humiliating people.

The thing both of these have in common is that they represent a fantasy world. People aren't 'equal' in reality, and the shows people watch are also not reality, but highly contrived.

The enjoyment of reality TV in Britain might reflect the British tendency to want people to fail, rather than succeed.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Patrick Stevens

Arch is right. My view is that if children are not allowed to be highly competitive as children, it densensitises them and they play out games with TV proxies in a rather cruel manner. I was a highly competitive youngster, but because you inevitably end up losing many times, it teaches you not just about yourself, but how to treat others with respect and sportsmanship - both of which are absent on these revolting reality programs.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Probably agree, but I need to lose something first. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Try the TdF.

Spawn of Cabbie · June 2007

Running races may have been all but abolished in schools in terms of competitiveness, but everyone knows who the fastest runner is, the most intelligent is, who wears the best trainers so competitiveness is alive and well.

I think the affect of Reality TV is largely benign and it's quite easy to avoid if you want. Those kids who want to be famous for the sake of it have always been about - now they have somewhere where they might be able to achieve it.

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Patrick Stevens

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Patrick Stevens

Arch is right. My view is that if children are not allowed to be highly competitive as children, it densensitises them and they play out games with TV proxies in a rather cruel manner. I was a highly competitive youngster, but because you inevitably end up losing many times, it teaches you not just about yourself, but how to treat others with respect and sportsmanship - both of which are absent on these revolting reality programs.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Probably agree, but I need to lose something first. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Try the TdF.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yeah okay, so maybe I just know my limits! And the TdF actually bores me, so may just try some World Championship Single Speed races instead.

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Flying_Monkey

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco
Probably agree, but I need to lose something first. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

There are limits to self-depreciating irony, aren't there?

Or perhaps you're the kind of person who props up deep existential insecurity by simply doing things that belittle others to confirm your ego... as Patrick says, try doing something really challenging and you might realise that 'losing' can teach you something, at least that there's more to life than 'winning'...

So, self-knowledge or self-defence? I really have no idea. Only you do, whatever you say here, but a lot of what you say here makes you sound quite deluded... I hope you're different in real life.

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Not as different as I hope you are in real life...

Flying_Monkey · June 2007

I'm quite different... [:)]. FM is a persona reflecting the most judgemental and argumentative end of my personality.

And clearly you do have some sense of irony after all (which is why I was in the process of deleting my post when you sent your reply)...

I do wonder though - as I do of many 'people' here, how much of what you say do you really believe?

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

Archcp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Spawn of Cabbie

Running races may have been all but abolished in schools in terms of competitiveness, but everyone knows who the fastest runner is, the most intelligent is, who wears the best trainers so competitiveness is alive and well.

I think the affect of Reality TV is largely benign and it's quite easy to avoid if you want. Those kids who want to be famous for the sake of it have always been about - now they have somewhere where they might be able to achieve it.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

best runner - yeah, that's competitive. Most intelligent - to some extent, you can't help that, but you can work hard. Best trainers? FFS, that's just stupid fashion. best in what way? Actually good for running in, or just have the right logo?

Talking to a colleague at lunch, he coaches fencing. A sport based on an extremely gentlemanly sporting ethos. In proper competition, even at Olympic level, competitors have been known to stop the bout to let a ref know that they've sustained a hit not recorded by the sensors in the suit... Apparently, modern kids just can't get that. They're much more likely to claim 'no hit' falsely. By allowing everyone to win, we're also stopping kids learning that sometimes, it's OK to lose. In fact, in sport, in most competitions, losing is such a small deal, it's not worth being bothered about. You won't die, you just lost that time... Either decide you don't care, or make the effort to do better next time...

Yeah, reality TV is pretty banal, and I just don't watch it. But when it takes over most of a weekend schedule, it's annoying to find not much better on...

If I had a baby elephant, it could help me clean the car. If I had a car.

Spawn of Cabbie · June 2007

To you "who wears the best trainers" may be silly fashion, but to a 13 year old they are quite important.

You say "modern kids" don't get that but those sort of self policing attitudes extend to snooker.

I think once someone becomes involved in the ethos of a sport they will happily take on that self policing nature if it is part of the sport.

redcogs · June 2007

i'm intensely competetive. i also have a strong belief that abiding by the rules of a games is likely to ensure a more enjoyable event, and a reasonably fair outcome.

It is saddening to realise that a 'winning at all costs' situation has been so elevated that it begins to damage the decent sporting ethic.

How about a movement to reinstitute the play hard and play fair but understand that there is more to life than winning ethos that people over the age of 40 might remember?

please look up to the stars.. ***

ankev1 · June 2007

Redcogs will now lead us in a quick chorus of the Eton Boating Song.

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Flying_Monkey

I'm quite different... [:)]. FM is a persona reflecting the most judgemental and argumentative end of my personality.

And clearly you do have some sense of irony after all (which is why I was in the process of deleting my post when you sent your reply)...

I do wonder though - as I do of many 'people' here, how much of what you say do you really believe?

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

To take your words, Joe Sacco is also a persona reflecting the most judgemental and argumentative end of my personality.

I am testing my thoughts and opinions by putting forward a more extreme view. For some reason it does bring out the capitalist in me which in real life remains fairly hidden!

The only things I say which I 100% believe in are animal welfare topics.

walkercp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arch

Thought occured to me the other day.. Bear with me...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Do you now have a pet bear too Arch?

Baby Elephants - free from artificial flavourings, colourings and preservatives

Spawn of Cabbie · June 2007

Amazingly, considering a previous exchange today I agree with this

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">abiding by the rules of a games is likely to ensure a more enjoyable event, and a reasonably fair outcome.

It is saddening to realise that a 'winning at all costs' situation has been so elevated that it begins to damage the decent sporting ethic.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This, however, is a case of long hot summer syndrome

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">the play hard and play fair but understand that there is more to life than winning ethos that people over the age of 40 might remember?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Maybe it's because I'm from a slightly different generation, but I believe this has never really existed.

Archcp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Spawn of Cabbie

To you "who wears the best trainers" may be silly fashion, but to a 13 year old they are quite important.

You say "modern kids" don't get that but those sort of self policing attitudes extend to snooker.

I think once someone becomes involved in the ethos of a sport they will happily take on that self policing nature if it is part of the sport.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Lovely example of a sentence lacking a certain logic... What have modern kids to do with snooker particularly? I guess you mean, young people in some sports do still have those values. So what about soccer? Didn't that used to be a more gentlemanly game? now, they dive and argue and gang up on the ref. And cricket? I remember when a batsman 'walked', straightaway - now there seems to be much more arguing the point.

And yes, I know how shallow 13 years olds can be about trainers. Doesn't make them right though...

If I had a baby elephant, it could help me clean the car. If I had a car.

Spawn of Cabbie · June 2007

Badly phrased, that snooker sentence - but yes that is what I mean.

No - I don't think football did used to be more gentlemanly. When exactly are you thinking of?
In the 50's there was a cup final decided by a goal where the ball went out before it was crossed - they didn't point it out to the ref they ran off celebrating the

Don't forget in the 60's most teams had a player whose job in the side was to intentionally injure the opposition players. Except for Leeds. They had 11 of them.

Did they used to "walk" in cricket? All the time? Or just when they were in a good position? We'll never really know because the coverage of time.

Of the mainstream sports, I think golf & snooker still have that ethos and I doubt whether any of the other sports ever did.

Archcp · June 2007

Well, I have to admit, my knowledge of sport is mostly just an impression, I have no interest in most of it. So i bow to your superior knowledge. But I sat through a lot of county cricket coverage as a kid, because my Dad liked watching it, and I just remember it all seeming more genteel. These days there seems to be so much agression shown.

Anyway, golf and snooker aren't sports, they're just a waste of a good walk and a big table respectively...[;)]

If I had a baby elephant, it could help me clean the car. If I had a car.

gillan1969 · June 2007

quite simply it is money (or the love thereof) that has caused these problems

the posh twits that once dominated sports and did not allow professionals to compete in the olympics or rugby etc knew the results of the professionalisation of sport and didn't want it. Not that I am siding with them but they flagged up the issues. That combined with the something for nothing brigade now ensure that cheating is widespread

but then who have we to look at for guidance

politicians (eh......where to start)
business leaders (Enron et al)
Church (choirboy anyone)

people don't 'know their place' anymore and why should they

are they not as entiltled to grab what they can like royality of old, like the british empire, like our business leaders etc etc

why demonise the individual when we have always collectively been a bunch of shisters

www.squadraporcini.com

Spawn of Cabbie · June 2007

First of all, I'm sorry if my tone comes across as aggressive - it's not intentional (in this case!)

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">my knowledge of sport is mostly just an impression<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think a lot of people have this view and it's perpeptuated by those who cover sport who laugh indulgently at the misdemeanours of those in the past but then tut tut about modern day athletes as if it's something new!
How this ties in to relaity TV, I'm not sure!
BTW, snooker is not a sport. I play golf yet was unsure whether it was a sport or not. I watched the US Open yesterday and the winner smoked like a chimney round the back nine so I concluded it was not!

papercorn2000 · June 2007

Non of the above are sports! They are games!

20 points to the first person who can name what Ernest Hemingway considered to be the only three "sports".

What the fuck he knew about sport in general, I can't say!

God told me to skin you alive.
http://www.ekroadclub.co.uk/

Spawn of Cabbie · June 2007

I dunno err

Elephant Hunting
Bull Fighting
Arm Wrestling

do I win?

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by papercorn2000

Non of the above are sports! They are games!

20 points to the first person who can name what Ernest Hemingway considered to be the only three "sports".

What the fuck he knew about sport in general, I can't say!

God told me to skin you alive.
http://www.ekroadclub.co.uk/
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Since when has Ernest Hemmingway been an authority on sport?

Any past-time which is competitive is a sport, from darts to Formula 1. There is a lot of snobbery from people who are jealous that sports like snooker get more media attention and money than there own, but the level of skill and dedication needed to become the best is the same across the board.

And that golden era when men played for the love of the game and competed fair and square never existed. Footballers got away with things that would get them permenantly banned in the days before higher definition tv pictures and cameras at every ground picked on every little indescretion. Cyclists were doping to a far greater extent than they do to-day when there was hardly any money to be earned from the sport, and bodyline bowling was a feature in cricket before the second world war.

"Play up and play the game" was confined to the pages of the Boys Own Paper.

Nobody ever got laid because they were using Shimano

willski · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arch

Thought occured to me the other day.. Bear with me...

These days, one of the gripes people have when they moan about Political Correctness, is that kids aren't allowed to lose anymore - school sports (assuming they play any) and competitions all have to give prizes for all, no one can be allowed to win in case it upsets others etc... You can't be 'wrong', only differently 'right' - that sort of thing. (I can't comment on if this is actually true, no having anything to go with kids, so if it's not true, the whole argument falls down)

At the same time, the nation seems to be obsessed with, and liberally supplied with, TV shows in which people are seen to lose, one by one, often in a humiliating way - either voted out, or 'fired' with a putdown...

Could it be that the less people experience losing in real life (well, school anyway), the happier they are to see it happening to other people? If people experienced more losing (or just more competition) in life, would the taste for this sort of stuff wane? Or are reality shows just a fashion we're stuck with?

Just one of those thoughts you have with time on your hands... Any opinions?

If I had a baby elephant, it could help me clean the car. If I had a car.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Competitive sport is alive and well in schools, and the notion that it isn't, is easily debunked.

Reality TV shows offer the possibility of riches and fame to the contestants without them having to do very much. To that end, it is similar to the Dance Marathons of 1930's - or in fact almost any gambling proposition.

The fact that people want to spectate is perhaps more interesting. This seems to be a mixture between not wanting to miss out in case something happens, and wanting to join in the vitriol against whoever is this years hated contestant.

_____________________________________________________________________

If I had a baby elephant, I'd write a witty sig line about it - if I had any wit.

Fnaar · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by papercorn2000
[20 points to the first person who can name what Ernest Hemingway considered to be the only three "sports".
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Bullfighting
Motor racing
Knitting (or was it mountaineering)?

No, Dougal, that baby elephant is far away! [:D]

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by papercorn2000

Non of the above are sports! They are games!

20 points to the first person who can name what Ernest Hemingway considered to be the only three "sports".

What the fuck he knew about sport in general, I can't say!

God told me to skin you alive.
http://www.ekroadclub.co.uk/
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Traditionalists have always considered the sports to be hunting, shooting and fishing. The "g" is mute.

Spawn of Cabbie · June 2007

You mean like the "g" in Trevor Brooking?

papercorn2000 · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Fnaar

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by papercorn2000
[20 points to the first person who can name what Ernest Hemingway considered to be the only three "sports".
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Bullfighting
Motor racing
Knitting (or was it mountaineering)?

No, Dougal, that baby elephant is far away! [:D]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

20 points to that man!

Mind you, what the hell Hemingway knew about sport is anyone's guess!
Maybe if it can kill you, it's sport, otherwise it's games.

However, he did include a long passage on 20's track cycling in "Fiesta" (the novel, not the tawdry 80's skin mag).
Is Fiesta still published?

God told me to skin you alive.
http://www.ekroadclub.co.uk/

Joe Sacco · June 2007

Fiesta better still be published, I've got 6 months left on my subscription.

political correctness and reality tv

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