School Bullies and 4x4s

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

I only spout off in the little car - people are less prone to cut me up in the big one for some reason (unless I'm towing [:(] )

Absinthe Minded · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by linfordlunchbox

I've seen it all before AM, and last time Tabernacle got himself banned because he couldn't control his temper whilst debating it. The king of cut and paste strikes again.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Doesn't matter that you've seen it all before, he's been banned, he loses his temper, he's pasted a large part of the post.

What matters is content. He has it, and you aren't able to counter it. This is Soapbox - argue, don't yawn.

<hr noshade size="1">Ja sam napisao ovo ovde samo zbog toga da izgledam pametan...

See My route to work!

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Absinthe Minded

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by linfordlunchbox

I've seen it all before AM, and last time Tabernacle got himself banned because he couldn't control his temper whilst debating it. The king of cut and paste strikes again.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Doesn't matter that you've seen it all before, he's been banned, he loses his temper, he's pasted a large part of the post.

What matters is content. He has it, and you aren't able to counter it. This is Soapbox - argue, don't yawn.

<hr noshade size="1">Ja sam napisao ovo ovde samo zbog toga da izgledam pametan...

See My route to work!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I've been there and done that in the past, I got called a liar.

I asked for official stats in the past to define the numbers of accidents involving 4x4s and they haven't been forthcoming. Considering that 4x4s are still very much as a percentage in the minority on the roads - even in London, the arguments posed by Tabernacle in the past just haven't stood up to any sort of scrutiny.

He singles the cars out for special treatment, but conveniently ignores the massive volumes of WVM driving around the streets of London which pose just as much threat as any 4x4 to pedestrians or cyclists (or other vehicles)

"I'd clean my car with a baby elephant - if I had a baby elephant !"

rothbook · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> I asked for official stats in the past to define the numbers of accidents involving 4x4s and they haven't been forthcoming. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You were called a liar because the above is a bare-faced lie, like your claim that an anti-car agenda exists here.

Once again, the evidence you are lying about:

Owners of 4x4s are likely to bear the brunt of changes in the way car insurance is calculated.

The ABI said: 'Examples are certain 4x4s that, although sustaining little damage themselves in a collision, can inflict considerable injury/damage to others.'

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/insurance/ ... _page_id=4

4x4s 'less safe than other cars in crashes with barriers'

DRIVERS and passengers in 4x4-type vehicles are more likely to be seriously injured in collisions with safety barriers than other cars because they are more prone to overturning, researchers have reported.

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=193132007

UK insurance industry figures from Churchill show that urban 4x4s are involved in 25% more accidents than saloon cars and do far more damage.[2] Admiral Insurance also recently released figures showing that 4x4 drivers are 27% more likely to be at fault in the event of an accident.[3]

The RAC Foundation says, "You could blame some of the higher accident rate for 4x4s on size. Drivers who are new to these cars might not realise how wide they are. There is also psychology involved - if you feel more secure inside a big 4x4, you might drive with less care than you should."[2]

The European New Car Assessment Programme (Euro-NCAP) carries out crash tests on cars available in Europe. Of the top 10 cars tested since 1998, none is a 4x4, and only three off-roaders make it into the the top 20 (see below).

Big 4x4s are right at the bottom of the class when it comes to pedestrian safety, getting an average Euro-NCAP crash test score of just 4 out of 36, compared with 10 and 13 for large and small family cars, respectively.

In October 2005, the British Medical Journal called for health warnings on 4x4s because of the dangers they pose for pedestrians,[10] and when new test results were released in November 2005, the only car with a zero rating for pedestrian safety was a 4x4 - the Jeep Cherokee.[11]

The UK Transport Research Laboratory released its annual report of deaths on Britain's roads in March 2005, providing hard evidence that the growth in popularity of big 4x4s is causing problems for road safety - 2004 saw the highest number of road deaths in seven years, reversing a long-term decline.[1]

The TRL blames the increasing mismatch between the size of vehicles on the road for a 1% rise in people killed in accidents in 2004. Passengers in 'super minis' were 12 times more likely to be killed than people in a 4x4 when these vehicles collided. The principal factor is the extra weight of the larger car, as well as extra height, which can override the bumpers and side impact protection on the smaller vehicle.

The Institute of Advanced Motorists in the UK has warned drivers of urban 4x4s to be more careful behind the wheel.[4]

Also in the UK, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents has described 4x4s as "totally unsuitable for the school run."

http://www.stopurban4x4s.org.uk/safety.htm

Exclusive research for Financial Mail by insurers Churchill and esure has put a price on the risks of driving a 4x4. While owners of four-wheel drives say they feel safer with their lofty view of the road, insurers' claims figures tell a different story.
Four-wheel drive vehicles are 25% more likely to be involved in accidents than ordinary family cars. And when the crunch comes, 4x4s do more than their fair share of damage.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/artic ... _page_id=4

Four-wheel-drive cars should carry health warnings to highlight the increased dangers they pose to pedestrians, doctors have said.

They say the gas-guzzlers are more deadly than normal cars and should come with warnings similar to those found on cigarette packets.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... xpand=true

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by rothbook

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> I asked for official stats in the past to define the numbers of accidents involving 4x4s and they haven't been forthcoming. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You were called a liar because the above is a bare-faced lie, like your claim that an anti-car agenda exists here.

Once again, the evidence you are lying about:

Owners of 4x4s are likely to bear the brunt of changes in the way car insurance is calculated. 

The ABI said: 'Examples are certain 4x4s that, although sustaining little damage themselves in a collision, can inflict considerable injury/damage to others.'

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/insurance/ ... _page_id=4

4x4s 'less safe than other cars in crashes with barriers'

DRIVERS and passengers in 4x4-type vehicles are more likely to be seriously injured in collisions with safety barriers than other cars because they are more prone to overturning, researchers have reported.

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=193132007

UK insurance industry figures from Churchill show that urban 4x4s are involved in 25% more accidents than saloon cars and do far more damage.[2] Admiral Insurance also recently released figures showing that 4x4 drivers are 27% more likely to be at fault in the event of an accident.[3]

The RAC Foundation says, "You could blame some of the higher accident rate for 4x4s on size. Drivers who are new to these cars might not realise how wide they are. There is also psychology involved - if you feel more secure inside a big 4x4, you might drive with less care than you should."[2]

The European New Car Assessment Programme (Euro-NCAP) carries out crash tests on cars available in Europe. Of the top 10 cars tested since 1998, none is a 4x4, and only three off-roaders make it into the the top 20 (see below).

Big 4x4s are right at the bottom of the class when it comes to pedestrian safety, getting an average Euro-NCAP crash test score of just 4 out of 36, compared with 10 and 13 for large and small family cars, respectively.

In October 2005, the British Medical Journal called for health warnings on 4x4s because of the dangers they pose for pedestrians,[10] and when new test results were released in November 2005, the only car with a zero rating for pedestrian safety was a 4x4 - the Jeep Cherokee.[11]

The UK Transport Research Laboratory released its annual report of deaths on Britain's roads in March 2005, providing hard evidence that the growth in popularity of big 4x4s is causing problems for road safety - 2004 saw the highest number of road deaths in seven years, reversing a long-term decline.[1]

The TRL blames the increasing mismatch between the size of vehicles on the road for a 1% rise in people killed in accidents in 2004. Passengers in 'super minis' were 12 times more likely to be killed than people in a 4x4 when these vehicles collided. The principal factor is the extra weight of the larger car, as well as extra height, which can override the bumpers and side impact protection on the smaller vehicle.

The Institute of Advanced Motorists in the UK has warned drivers of urban 4x4s to be more careful behind the wheel.[4]

Also in the UK, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents has described 4x4s as "totally unsuitable for the school run."

http://www.stopurban4x4s.org.uk/safety.htm

Exclusive research for Financial Mail by insurers Churchill and esure has put a price on the risks of driving a 4x4. While owners of four-wheel drives say they feel safer with their lofty view of the road, insurers' claims figures tell a different story.
Four-wheel drive vehicles are 25% more likely to be involved in accidents than ordinary family cars. And when the crunch comes, 4x4s do more than their fair share of damage.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/artic ... _page_id=4

Four-wheel-drive cars should carry health warnings to highlight the increased dangers they pose to pedestrians, doctors have said.

They say the gas-guzzlers are more deadly than normal cars and should come with warnings similar to those found on cigarette packets.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... xpand=true

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Absolute tripe. My friends 7.5 tonne lorry has the potential to cause far more damage than my 4x4 in any accident, but her insurance is only about œ30 per year more than mine.

Likewise, why do they charge teenagers œ1500 per year to insure a 1.2 Clio and me the same car œ150 ?

All this crap about 4x4s being more likely to be 27% more at fault than a regular car - its the drivers who cause accidents not the cars, and if they were dangerous in a 4x4, what makes you think that they would be less dangerous in a smaller car ?

My 2.5 tonne 2.5 td shogun costs œ220 to insure, The corsa which weighs about 1 tonne costs œ237 with the same drivers.

Go figure !!!

"I'd clean my car with a baby elephant - if I had a baby elephant !"

jjojjascp · June 2007

F**K this, I'm off for a spin round the city in my Land Rover.....

[:D]

It'll be cheaper in the long run......honest

rothbook · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> if they were dangerous in a 4x4, what makes you think that they would be less dangerous in a smaller car ? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Why not read the links and discover for yourself?

First you claimed the evidence doesn't exist.

When you are shown to be wrong you claim the evidence is "tripe" with no evidence of your own.

Finally you admit you don't even know why these vehicles are more dangerous, which makes it clear why you get so hysterical when your relentless posting on the subject is challenged.

A large off-road vehicle such as a Land Rover Discovery burns double the fuel of a conventional car like a Ford Mondeo. This produces double the amount of the greenhouse gases that contribute towards climate change, and double the amount of ground-level pollution that leads to asthma and other respiratory problems, particularly in children and the elderly. 4x4s also pose double the danger to pedestrians - hit by a 4x4, pedestrians are twice as likely to be killed compared with being in collision with a conventional car. [3]

[3] New Scientist, 13th December 2003, "Pedestrians at risk from sports utility vehicles", www.newscientist.com

Teachers have safety concerns about 4x4 vehicles
Danger signs should be placed on 4x4 vehicles to prevent parents from using them on the school run, teachers say.

The Association of Teachers and Lecturers will vote on plans to put warnings on dashboards.

History teacher Phil Whaley said 4x4s and sports utility vehicles were more likely than conventional cars to kill children and the danger was increased when bull bars were attached.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4900000.stm

What makes 4x4s so dangerous to pedestrians?
The point of impact on the body is higher if hit by a 4x4, meaning it is more likely to cause head and chest injuries, rather than leg and lower body injuries. This particularly applies to collisions involving children, due to the height of their head and chest.
Generally a 4x4 is heavier, stiffer and shaped more bluntly than normal cars and is therefore likely to cause more damage on impact. Weight is a major factor in velocity.
The threat to pedestrians (especially children) is increased due to the bull bars fitted on the front of many 4x4s [3]. From January 2006, it will be illegal to fit bull bars to your vehicle.
The size and design gives drivers a restricted view of the area immediately surrounding the vehicle. This means that young children are particularly vulnerable, as it is less likely that the driver will see them. According to the American independent body Consumer Reports, the blind spot for a driver of average height in a large 4x4 vehicle can be up to 28 feet [4]. This is a particular danger when taking a 4x4 on the school run - a time when there are a high number of children on pavements and crossing roads - and when using a 4x4 for shopping and parking it in busy supermarket car parks where there are lots of families about.
In safety tests, 4x4s generally perform very poorly in terms of pedestrian safety. For example the Jeep Grand Cherokee and the Suzuki Grand Vitara both received zero stars for pedestrian safety when tested by the European New Car Assessment programme (EuroNCAP) in 2005 and 2002 respectively. [5]

[3] Transport 2000
[4] 'The problem of blind spots', Consumer Reports
[5] The European New Car Assessment Programme, 'How Safe Is Your car?'

Last Updated: Friday, 7 October 2005, 00:08 GMT 01:08 UK

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Call for health warnings on 4x4s

The researches looked at studies into road accidents
Four-wheel drives - or 4x4s - should carry health warnings because of an increased injury risk to pedestrians compared to ordinary cars, experts say.
Trinity College Dublin experts say increasing numbers of people are driving these type of cars.

But, writing in the British Medical Journal, they say the risk to pedestrians comes from the car's design rather than the numbers on the roads.

They say warning notices should be put on 4x4s to raise awareness of risks.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4315784.stm

Jaded · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by linfordlunchbox

All this crap about 4x4s being more likely to be 27% more at fault than a regular car - its the drivers who cause accidents not the cars, and if they were dangerous in a 4x4, what makes you think that they would be less dangerous in a smaller car ? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Drivers' behaviour is affected by the vehicle they are driving... [;)]

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[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jaded

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by linfordlunchbox

All this crap about 4x4s being more likely to be 27% more at fault than a regular car - its the drivers who cause accidents not the cars, and if they were dangerous in a 4x4, what makes you think that they would be less dangerous in a smaller car ? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Drivers' behaviour is affected by the vehicle they are driving... [;)]

--
[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So the bigger the vehicle, the more aggressively driven ?

"I'd clean my car with a baby elephant - if I had a baby elephant !"

Jaded · June 2007

As I understand it, yes. I'm sure there will be a link somewhere.

Mayb not 'aggressively' per se, maybe 'assertively' might be a better term?

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[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one

rothbook · June 2007

The larger (and higher) the vehicle, the more cocooned the driver feels. An obvious example is the Carl Baxter case who used his 4 x 4 to cripple a yound girl and then drive away. How many cases of cyclists deliberately riding into people are there? The driver is insulated, elevated and protected and the arrogance of 4 x 4 drivers is typified both by Lindord's dishonesty and surveys like this:

http://www.eta.co.uk/news/newsview.asp?n=551

4x4 drivers take more risks on the road
Date: 23 June 2006
4x4 drivers are a danger to themselves and other road users, as well as the environment, a new study published this week shows.

Research carried out at Imperial College London found that 4x4 owners were much more likely to use mobile phones whilst driving than other road users, and were also less likely to be wearing seatbelts.

The report has been published this week in the British Medical Journal, and is based on observations of drivers in Hammersmith, west London, in February and March 2004.

Researchers studied 38,182 normal cars and 2,944 4x4s. 15.3 per cent of drivers observed were not wearing seatbelts, while 2.5 per cent were using their phones.

Amongst 4x4 and SUV drivers, mobile phone use was four times this level, while non-compliance with seatbelt laws was a third higher.

Flying_Monkey · June 2007

Linford, from what I know of the literature (as a teaching of town planning) I'm afraid Rothbook is entirely correct here - in general and on average - whether or not you personal conduct as driver reflects this. Unless you have any convincing evidence to the contrary - and that does not include your folksy anecdotes - then you simply have nothing to add, regardles of whether you feel bored by the argument or not and regardless of whether you successfully managed to provoke him last time or not.

Why do so many people have so much trouble separating one or two personal experiences from research results across a much larger population? Let's put it this way, as an engineer, if you were to use a material for a key component in an some device, would you trust, a. the mass of research done on tolerances and stresses and so on of that material, which showed compenents made from it to be liable, in general and on average, to serious failures, or b. the word of some bloke on an Internet forum who said, 'well, I had one made from it, and it never broke...'?

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jaded

As I understand it, yes. I'm sure there will be a link somewhere.

Mayb not 'aggressively' per se, maybe 'assertively' might be a better term?

--
[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So bus and lorry drivers fall into this category ?

"I'd clean my car with a baby elephant - if I had a baby elephant !"

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Flying_Monkey

Linford, from what I know of the literature (as a teaching of town planning) I'm afraid Rothbook is entirely correct here - in general and on average - whether or not you personal conduct as driver reflects this. Unless you have any convincing evidence to the contrary - and that does not include your folksy anecdotes - then you simply have nothing to add, regardles of whether you feel bored by the argument or not and regardless of whether you successfully managed to provoke him last time or not.

Why do so many people have so much trouble separating one or two personal experiences from research results across a much larger population? Let's put it this way, as an engineer, if you were to use a material for a key component in an some device, would you trust, a. the mass of research done on tolerances and stresses and so on of that material, which showed compenents made from it to be liable, in general and on average, to serious failures, or b. the word of some bloke on an Internet forum who said, 'well, I had one made from it, and it never broke...'?

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Seeing as we are in cut and paste mode

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">

The majority of perpetrators are males between the ages of 18 and 26. However, in hundreds of reported cases the perpetrator was 26 to 50 years old, and in 86 known cases the driver was between 50 and 75 years old.

There is no one profile of an "aggressive driver." Most are relatively young, poorly educated males with criminal records, histories of violence and drug or alcohol problems. Many have recently suffered an emotional or professional setback. However, hundreds of others are educated men and women with no such histories.

http://www.nasjax.navy.mil/safety/aggre ... riving.htm

Road rage affects eight in ten drivers
2 February 2007
A third admit being affected by road rage once a week or more often

Most drivers admit driving while angry or stressed at other road users, reveals a survey by Brake and breakdown specialist, Green Flag.

The survey of more than 1,000 drivers also shows that a startlingly high number drive while dangerously distracted by stress and anger at least once a week - almost a third.

Key findings of the survey:
Eight in ten drivers (78%) drive while angry or stressed about other road users, with one in three (31%) doing so once a week or more often
More than six in ten drivers (63%) drive while feeling angry or stressed at something unrelated to driving
Three-quarters of drivers (74%) drive while thinking about something other than work such as personal issues
More than nine in ten (95%) drivers agree that it is important to keep calm and focused while driving for safety reasons
Driving while stressed or angry can be extremely distracting and affect the way you drive. Research has shown that angry drivers are more likely to take risks such as speeding, rapidly switching lanes, tailgating and jumping red lights. Driving in this way increases your chance of being involved in a crash.(1)

Stress is a constant theme in our lives. It the second biggest cause of time off work, and is estimated to cost the country œ13bn a year.(2) Research has shown that around 12 million adults see their GP with mental health problems each year and many of these are stress-related.(3)

Most drivers realise the dangers of driving while angry or stressed, and yet the vast majority still drive while distracted by stress or anger at other road users or something unrelated to driving.

Driving requires your full attention, and Brake advises all drivers who are feeling particularly angry or stressed to pull over at a safe place and allow time to calm down. You should only begin driving again once you are able to give your full attention to the road. You should take regular breaks at least every two hours to help concentration and should never jump into a car after an argument or if your mind is elsewhere.

Brake is calling on the Government to take urgent action to stop the daily carnage on our roads by introducing year-round, high-profile advertising campaigns to warn the public about the dangers of road rage and give advice on how to be a safer driver.

Case study:
Tara Bradshaw, aged seven weeks
Seven-week-old Tara Bradshaw died when the car she and her parents were in was forced into the path of an oncoming van. David Waterman, 24, of Harlow, Essex, lost his temper and drove his Vauxhall Cavalier into the car Tara Bradshaw was in, forcing it into the oncoming lane, Chelmsford Crown Court heard. Waterman was found guilty of causing death by dangerous driving and sentenced to ten years in prison.
BBC News Online, 15 April 2005

Jools Townsend, head of education at Brake, says: "Driving is the most dangerous activity most of us do on a daily basis, and requires complete concentration. The demands of modern life often leads to stress and frustrations - and research shows that many of us succumb to stress on a regular basis. Driving while distracted by worries or frustrations can lead to fatal errors, or even dangerous, aggressive driving of the kind that killed Tara Bradshaw. We need to see drivers taking responsibility for their own safety and that of others, and not allowing themselves to drive if they're not fully calm and focused. We also urge the Government to address this issue by introducing advertising campaigns warning drivers of the dangers they face, and giving advice on how to deal with anger and stress on the road."

Nigel Charlesworth, spokesperson for Green Flag, commented: "It is worrying that so many people admit to driving while feeling stressed putting themselves and others at risk. Motorists should remain calm when driving to ensure they are concentrating fully on the road and if very stressed, should think twice about getting behind the wheel."

http://www.greenflag.com/news/press/release_0702_6.html

Road Rage - What it is and how to avoid it - iam.org.uk

Road rage can happen to anybody at anytime and can vary from an aggressive gesture or word to a full on physical attack, or in some cases, even murder.

Over the past few years, the so called "road rage" syndrome has developed and we hear an increasing amount about it. However, road rage is nothing new, it has been around us for many a year, probably since the beginning of road transport.

Road rage can happen to anybody at anytime and can vary from an aggressive gesture or word to a full on physical attack, or in some cases, even murder.

Road rage is an increasing problem, not just in Great Britain, but around the world. Drivers stopped at traffic lights, stuck in traffic jams or getting into or out of their cars are most vulnerable. Here are some safety tips on how to minimise the chances of becoming a victim.

When in town, especially at night, make sure all car doors are locked, and keep the windows and sun roof only partly open.
Secure any and all valuables (i.e. portable computers, mobile phones, brief cases, handbags, etc.) and keep them well out of sight.
Avoid conflict on the road - gestures, stares, unnecessary use of the horn, flashing lights on, that might incite anger in another driver.
Use lane sense and your indicators correctly.
Don't get out of your car if you are being rammed or are blocked in.
Be aware of other road users and their intentions.
Keep your distance, and when stopped at a traffic light, give yourself room to drive away, just in case.
If you are being followed, drive to a police station or a crowded public place for help.
Avoid tailgating other cars on the road; it is dangerous and threatening.
If an attacker tries to enter your car, sound your horn or alarm.
If approached, don't argue. Apologise profusely if necessary, even if in the right. You can always take down details and report the offender.
Above all, prevention is better than cure. Be courteous at all times to other road users - don't expect courtesy if you show none.
Everybody is capable of showing road rage, yes even YOU !!.

Follow these few lines of advice and take it easy.

Allow yourself plenty of time. Alright if you know how long it usually takes, but leaving 10 minutes earlier can make for a stress free journey and consequently, a stress free day. You'll feel less stressed and more inclined to give way to other road users.
Don't drive aggressively, drive defensively. If someone in a queue wants to cut in, let them. They'll be 5 seconds in front of you. So what?
Carry a flask of drink and some food. When you get stuck in a traffic jam, offer it around, go on start a craze it's called being friendly, remember?
Think about this:-
A road user who cuts you up, drives carelessly or dangerously, won't just do it once. They may have done it 10 or 20 times so far today, take pride in thinking how many other drivers have called them a PILLOCK that day.

Tarmac Terrorism - Drivers Behaving Badly - driving.co.uk

We have to tolerate seemingly aggressive and intimidating acts committed by other drivers.

Intolerant and inconsiderate motorists who are driving too fast are unlikely to realise that they're unsafe. They feel perfectly happy with the way they drive, believing that their own attitude is okay they don't see a need to change, after all, it's other drivers that have the problem !

Who are the Tarmac Terrorists ?
Who are the anonymous anti-social elements of drivers who have a complete disregard for our society's values ? Are they ...

the inexperienced young male drivers, enjoying the thrill of danger showing off to impress their passengers and young female pedestrians?
the social misfits? Drivers who don't fit in well into society and who break laws of other kinds.
the `Joyriders' who express themselves by driving somebody else's car dangerously fast, ditching and then burning it?
the machiavellian Prima Donnas whose style causes antagonism?
the drivers of white vans ?
just ordinary drivers who have an `easy attitude' towards traffic laws?
Automotive cladding. People of all ages who are by their nature impatient, aggressive and selfish will probably drive the same way, but what is it that attracts polite, considerate people who have an even temperament to disregard danger, take unjustifiable risks and lose their tempers when they get behind the wheel ?

Space invaders. Human beings, like animals are territorial. The car's safety space or cushion is an extension of personal territory, so when other vehicles get close we sense that our personal space is being threatened and our driving style can change depending what happens in this space. Compare your driving manners when travelling on business through a busy town, or an overcrowded motorway with when you're on holiday motoring through a quiet village out in the country.

Lifestyle factors. The pressure of a busy lifestyle in a competitive and work orientated society puts drivers in a desperate hurry, looking for any advantage, such as a gap or short-cut. Where territory is `defended' and a manoeuvre is obstructed, the consequences can be lethal.

Domestic troubles at home, or a bad day at work will influence your mood to the extent that you're likely to be less considerate and tolerant of the 'stupid' mistakes made by other road users.

It won't happen to me. All through our lives we calculate risk against advantage in one way or another. Similarly, when we're driving, the ease of a car's handling and implicit belief that its design will protect us, can encourage us into taking deliberate risks.

Your living room on wheels. Inside the cosy cocoon of motor car metal - the outside world is like quickly moving images on a television screen or computer monitor. We feel comfortable with our homely gadgets such as radios, cassettes and telephones. Our human instinct to survive seems to fail as comfort seduces us towards a high risk driving strategy.

Good driving is no accident. Most of the UK's 31.9 million motorists consider themselves good drivers, the evidence they feel supports their claim is that the majority have no endorsements on their licences and almost 60% have a full no claims insurance bonus. How can they be driving badly ?

To measure the level of bad driving objectively, the 1994 records for motor vehicle violations show 6.3 million offences, excluding parking occurred, and over the last three years 3.7 million endorsements were issued by the Courts. Several million verbal warnings are issued yearly by traffic police officers in preference to reporting an offence for prosecution.

New drivers under the age of 21 have three times the average of motoring offences. Studies of their style of driving suggests they commit fewer technical errors than drivers in the 20-45 age range, but the mistakes they make are more serious and relate to a failure to anticipate, more likely to lead to dangerous manoeuvring and loss of control.

Road Rage. A human response to any stressful or frustrating situation is anger. Wrapped in our protective metal armour we're less likely to be calm or polite if we're affected by another driver's mistake. Triggers that can start Road Rage include ...

Tailgating
Failing to signal
Holding the middle lane of a dual carriageway or motorway
Cutting in at the head of a queue of traffic
Preventing other vehicles from entering the traffic flow
Using a mobile phone and not concentrating on the road ahead
Swooping across motorway lanes to reach an exit
Stealing a parking space
A learner driver stalling or driving abnormally slow
Being overtaken by a motorist exceeding the urban speed limit who then drives relatively slowly on a single carriageway national speed limit road where 60 mph would be safe
Any sudden manoeuvre that causes you to brake or steer
Ignoring traffic signs or road markings
Obscene gestures and verbal abuse
Misuse of the horn and headlamps
What may seem a minor traffic violation to the driver making any of the above mistakes, is perceived as aggressive or inconsiderate by others. The incidence of raising tempers and disagreement between drivers seems to become more common place to each generation of drivers as our roads get more congested, fortunately, driver aggression to extent of physical assault is still rare.

Belligerent driving phenomena, commonly associated with young men, is typically a human lifestyle problem as women are becoming increasingly aggressive.

Positive coping strategies
To share the roads without conflict we have to tolerate seemingly aggressive and intimidating acts committed by other drivers. How do we do this ?

Never retaliate against acts of bad driving, they could be unintentional mistakes. Rest assured that if you feel that another driver is a dangerous idiot, then everybody else does too !
Where another driver is continuously hassling you, avoid over-reacting by accelerating, braking or swerving suddenly and try to avoid eye contact. Drive to a busy place or the nearest police station to get help.
When stopped in traffic, keep an escape route, that is enough distance to be able to move out from behind the vehicle in front. Can you see the rear tyres of the car in front and some of the tarmac.
Where someone attempts to enter your car, sound your horn repeatedly to attract attention.
Driving where traffic is moving slowly, as in towns, lock your doors and keep the windows and sunroof only partially open.
Don't even think about carrying any type of weapon. It might provoke a potential assailant who could well grab it and use it against you.
Where bad driving causes you to take avoiding action to prevent a crash or near miss, letting your anger lead to confrontation will achieve little. We cannot do much about the way other drivers use the road, but we can do something about our own driving to make it enjoyable, safer and less stressful ...

Aggressive Driving - AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety

For every aggressive driving incident serious enough to result in a police report there are hundreds or thousands more which never got reported to the authorities.

Aggressive Driving
Aggressive driving has progressively increased during the 1990s, indicates a study sponsored by the AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety. The study analyzed 10,037 police reports and newspaper stories about traffic incidents that led to violence and was prepared by Mizell & Company, an international security firm in Bethesda, Maryland. Reports of violent traffic incidents have increased nearly 7 percent per year since 1990.

"Yet this is only the small tip of a very large iceberg," says David K. Willis, President oft AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety. "For every aggressive driving incident serious enough to result in a police report or newspaper article, there are hundreds or thousands more which never got reported to the authorities."

The study also found that events precipitating violent incidents are often remarkably trivial and the people involved are often just ordinary citizens. "People have been shot because they drove too slowly or played the radio too loud," Willis says. "But violent traffic disputes are rarely the result of a single incident. Rather, they seem to be the result of personal attitudes and the accumulation of stress in the motorist's life."

The AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety advises motorists to be alert for potentially dangerous or competitive situations and to avoid them.

Don't take your eyes off the road.
Avoid eye contact with an aggressive driver
Stay cool -- don't react to provocation
Keep away from drivers behaving erratically
In addition, better enforcement of traffic regulations could prevent many such incidents before they happen. A full report will be published early next year. A summary of the findings is also available at http://www.aaafts.org/Text/research/RoadRageFinal.htm

Summary of Aggressive Driving Study - AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety

1440 New York Avenue, N.W.
Washington, D.C. 20005
202/638-5944

Reports of violent traffic incidents have increased nearly 7 percent per year since 1990. "Yet this is only the small tip of a very large iceberg," says David K. Willis, President of the AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety. "For every aggressive driving incident serious enough to result in a police report or newspaper article, there are hundreds or thousands more which never got reported to the authorities."

This study is based on 10,037 separate incidents of aggressive driving between January 1,1990 and September 1, 1996, assembled by the international security firm of Mizell & Co. from police reports and newspaper stories. The reports are only a partial sample of incidents, and not all factors are known about all incidents. Gathering a comprehensive collection of all police-reported aggressive driving incidents would be a formidable task. Therefore, these results constitute only the "tip of the iceberg" and do not represent the full extent of the problem.

In the reports from the six years studied, a total of 12,828 people were injured or killed asthe result of aggressive driving (218 killed, 12,610 injured), including 94 children under the age of15. The number of reported incidents has increased every year since 1990, at an average annual rate of nearly 7 percent.

Who Are Aggressive Drivers?

The majority of perpetrators are males between the ages of 18 and 26. However, in hundreds of reported cases the perpetrator was 26 to 50 years old, and in 86 known cases the driver was between 50 and 75 years old.

There is no one profile of an "aggressive driver." Most are relatively young, poorly educated males with criminal records, histories of violence, and drug or alcohol problems, and many have recently suffered an emotional or professional setback. However, hundreds of others are successful men and women with no such histories.

While most of the drivers were male, 413 of the recorded incidents, or approximately 4 percent, were female. Women used their vehicle as a weapon in 285 cases. In 31 known cases, women attacked police officers, usually while the officer was attempting to issue a traffic citation.

What Causes Aggressive Driving?

The precipitating incidents are often remarkably trivial. Stated reasons for violent traffic disputes include arguments over parking spaces, cutting another motorist off or refusing to allow passing, minor traffic crashes, obscene gestures, loud music, overuse of the horn, slow driving, tailgating, failure to use a turn signal, and similar behaviors. For example, a teenager who murdered a passenger in another vehicle said, "We was dissed."

However, violent traffic disputes are rarely the result of a single incident, but rather are the cumulative result of a series of stressors in the motorist's life. The traffic incident that turns violent is often "the last straw."

How Many Incidents Involve Guns?

The most popular weapons used in traffic altercations are firearms and motor vehicles. In approximately 44 percent of the violent traffic altercations, the perpetrator used a weapon such as a firearm, knife, club, or tire iron. In 23 percent the aggressive driver used the vehicle as a weapon, and in 12 percent a vehicle and a standard weapon. More unusual cases include pepper spray, eggs, golf clubs, and in one instance a crossbow.

Types of Attacks

In at least 94 cases, men and women have directed their automobiles against buildings and other properties. (This does not include "crash and rob" incidents motivated by theft.)

At least 322 incidents were related to domestic violence, and in 22 cases aggressive drivers have intentionally directed their vehicles into crowds.

In 221 cases motorists intentionally used vehicles to attack law enforcement personnel. Such incidents led to the deaths of at least 48 police officers and 38 drivers and passengers. In other incidents, drivers and passengers were killed when trying to evade police. Nearly all of the221 incidents involved drivers or passengers who were suspected of some criminal violation.

An average of 38 violent traffic incidents each year are due to racism and interracial tension. Most begin with a small accident, disagreement, or dispute over a parking space. However, hundreds of incidents that involve people of different races are not caused or aggravated by racism.

In the end, we may very well discover that personal frustration, anger, and testosterone are the most dangerous drugs on the highway.

How Can Motorists Protect Themselves?

Never underestimate the other driver's capacity for mayhem.Be patient and keep your cool in traffic. The best way to avoid being the target of anaggressive driver is to practice basic traffic courtesy:

Do not make obscene gestures
Use Your Horn Sparingly
Don't block passing lane
Don't switch lanes without signaling
Avoid blocking the right-hand turn lane
Do not take more than one parking space
Do not make obscene gestures
If you are not disabled, don't park in a disabled space
Do not allow your door to hit the car parked next to you
Do not tailgate
If you travel slowly, pull over and allow traffic to pass
Avoid unnecessary use of high beam headlights
Don't let the car phone distract you
Don't stop in the road to talk with a pedestrian or other driver
Don't inflict loud music on neighboring cars
Other Useful Attitudes:

Assume other drivers' mistakes are not personal
Be polite and courteous, even if the other driver isn't
Avoid all conflict if possible. If another driver challenges you, take a deep breath and get out of the way.
Reduce your stress:

Allow plenty of time for the trip
Listen to soothing music
Improve the comfort in your vehicle
Understand that you can't control the traffic, only your reaction to it
Many otherwise peaceful motorists become enraged road warriors when they get behind the wheel. If you're one of them, be advised that (a) cars are not bullet proof; (b) a truly aggressive driver will follow you home; and (c) you've got to get out of the car eventually.

Some states have a cellular telephone number that motorists can use to report dangerous driving to the state police or highway patrol. If you have a cellular telephone, learn what the number is in your state and use it when you see a driver behaving in a threatening manner -- changing lanes often, speeding, flashing lights, tailgating, and so forth. You could prevent a tragedy.

Finally, if you are tempted to participate in a driving duel, ask yourself: "Is it worth being paralyzed or killed? Is it worth a jail sentence?" An impulsive action could ruin the rest of your life.

New Book available on Road Rage - Dr Driving

Two nationally known authors Leon James, Ph.D. and Diane Nahl, Ph.D. from the University of Hawaii have have published a new book on a topic often discussed in the media. Its title is "Road Rage & Aggressive Driving: Steering Clear of Highway Warfare" by (Amherst, N.Y.: Prometheus Books, 2000) ISBN 1-57392-846-1

Do you want to keep your cool in the age of rage? Do you try to get where you're going in the shortest possible time? Do you cuss at or retaliate against "pushy" drivers? Do you ever feel like giving a tailgater a "brake job"? Do you regularly take risks and exceed speed limits?

Drivers inherit the seeds of aggressiveness and territoriality from parents and the media. Road Rage and Aggressive Driving examines the psycho-legal context of a growing social epidemic and provides instructions for putting the brakes on highway aggression by restoring civility and safety to our roads.

Here's what other authors say about this book:

Like the weather, everyone is talking about road rage, but Drs. James and Nahl have finally done something about it. They show that what we call "traffic" is really an ever-changing set of social relationship tests, and how we engage in these auto-connections speaks volumes about the ultimate quality of our own and others lives. They show us how being a better driver helps us lead a better, happier, healthier life. Paul Pearsall, author of " The Pleasure Prescription and Wishing Well"

Next time you're about to crowd someone's bumper because they cut you off in traffic, take a deep breath, back off, and drive to the nearest book store to buy this book. You'll not only learn why we've become such impatient, hostile drivers, you'll learn exactly how to reverse this life-endangering habit. Bravo to the authors for a well-written, much needed book. Read it and reap! Sam Horn, author of " Tongue Fu" and " ConZENtrate".

For those of us that have been personally involved with "Road Rage"; for those of us who have witnessed "Road Rage"; for those of us that understand "Road Rage" truly exists and is a serious issue for the motoring public, this is a page turner. Leon and Diane have defined the issue, shown what it has cost us and most importantly given specifics for us to prevent from participating in a "Road Rage" incident or being the victim of "Road Rage". This is a must read for young drivers, experienced drivers and professional drivers alike, remember that it's about personal behavior! Who better to discuss this issue than Driving Psychology educators, Dr. Leon James and Dr. Diane Nahl. Stan McWilliams, Manager Safety Information Systems, M.S. Carriers Inc.

It is certain to become an American classic! Jo Goecke, iSyndicate.com

Everything you always wanted to know about road rage and aggressive driving. Leon James and Diane Nahl bring the scholarship desperately needed. John A. Larson, M.D., F.A.P.A., Institute for Stress Medicine

Excerpts and review comments: http://DrDriving.org email: DrDriving@aloha.net Dr. Leon James and Dr. Diane Nahl are professors at the University of Hawaii.

Traffic Psychologist Confesses To Road Rage - Auto Safety Alliance

A candid chat with Leon James, Ph.D., aka "Dr. Driving"

By Mary M. Ford

Imagine you are driving along and your passenger leans over and whispers in your ear, Grandma thinks you're a bad driver. A normal reaction might include denial and anger. But for Dr. Leon James those words mapped out his life's work. My struggle to become the kind of driver my wife and her Grandma can accept made me look at my driving problem.

Adapting a technique from social psychology, he started carrying a tape recorder in the car. He recorded himself, saying whatever came to mind. He was astounded when he listened to the tapes. There was so much hostility, impatience, and irrationality. I didn't know myself as a driver.

He then had hundreds of his university students carry tape recorders while driving. In listening to their tapes, he discovered that every driver has moments of rage behind the wheel.

Road rage had become mainstream behavior, not just one exhibited by extreme people. We all have road rage," Dr. James stated.

Road rage is a habit acquired in childhood. Children are reared in a car culture that condones irate behavior as part of the normal wear and tear of driving, Dr. James explained. He cautioned that it will take an entire generation to overcome the road rage habit. Undaunted, he is working to find solutions to road rage. However, that will take more than conventional driversƒ education to overcome, he stated.

Currently, Dr. James's students are investigating how American society transmits the culture of aggressiveness behind the wheel. Dr. James posts their findings on his Dr. Driving Web site (http://DrDriving.org).

He also devised a new rating system for TV and movies which he called Drivers Behaving Badly (DBB). Using his DBB system, he has been rating the media for its portrayals of dangerous and antisocial driving behaviors. Such portrayals also imply that dangerous driving is cool and glamorous. Surely this has affected both children and adults, he surmised.

Dr. James predicted that safe driving would lower the cost of automobiles and save lives. Crashes and injuries cost the economy 150 billion dollars and 42,000 lives annually.

Fifteen years later, Dr. James still finds himself struggling with his own driving behavior. His wife is happier with his driving, but not by much. She often has to tell me, ×Hey, come on, Leon, wave to that driver who just let you in.ƒ

However, Dr. James remains committed to a lifelong U-turn in his driving behavior. I'm convinced that this has improved our marriage and I recommend it to all couples, including unmarried ones. Let your passenger be your coach.

I'm Here To Take Names and Kick Butt! - Above Average Driver

AboveAverageDriver.com was born out of frustration, and just the slightest desire for revenge...

When I was a lot younger, my grandmother told me about a friend of hers who had taken a trip to Europe some years before. This friend, like my grandmother, was a heavy smoker from back in the days when doctors would prescribe cigarettes to women to help "calm their nerves". My grandmother's friend was traveling about Europe with her family by car, and apparently was stopped at a border crossing, in Germany, for a routine customs check. As the border guard approached her car, she flicked her cigarette out of her window, probably unconciously freeing her mouth and hands for talking and presenting official documents. To the Americans' surprise, the border guard made her get out of the car, retrieve her cigarette butt, and dispose of it in her car. At this point in the story, my grandmother pointed out that Germans were generally more concerned about such things, and took more pride in their landscape, even (perhaps especially) on international highways.

That image, of a border guard making this otherwise dignified and matronly woman get out of her car and root around on the side of the road for a cigarette butt, has stuck with me for a long, long time. I have often wondered how it is possible that Germans could show more pride in their homeland than Texans, who, regardless of the merits of their claims, are clearly the loudest and proudest people on the planet. I have sometimes fantasized about getting out of my car at a stop light and knocking on a smoker's window, with their still-smoldering cigarette butt in my hand, saying loudly though the glass, "Excuse me, I think you dropped this!" I've heard unconfirmed tales of people doing exactly that, though I think I want to believe them more than I actually can bring myself to. It's a little too gross, and you never know when a Road Rager would run you over or just shoot you.

Beyond the habits of smokers, people do things in their cars that they would not do and probably could not bring themselves to do in person. Wanton rudeness and downright dangerous aggression abound on our roads. The very fact that road rage is a meaningful concept in our modern culture indicates that we have certainly come to find ourselves in a strange and not so wonderful time and place. One reason this rude aggression can proliferate is the anonymity our vehicles provide. Unless there is an accident or a law officer otherwise involved, there are no obvious repercussions to our less-than-friendly actions while driving. There is no reason to be polite, and very little reason to not just do what you want when you want.

This site is a good attempt to help remedy my frustration with tailgaters and those who confuse the highway and their ashtray. The first bumper sticker for AboveAverageDriver.com should probably be "I'm here to take names and kick butt!", because while all the butt kicking is metaphorical, the satisfaction of the small, nearly anonymous revenge on the usually small, nearly anonymous offense is certainly real enough.

Now, a little jot on a notepad at a stop light can lift the spirits of the better drivers, the Above Average Drivers, everywhere. But not only is it fun to take names, it's oddly compelling to egosurf, and discover if we ourselves have made the cut, for good or bad. One good report is enough to make you feel Above Average for the rest of the week.

http://www.smartmotorist.com/rag/rag.htm<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Now where does it say in any of this that the type of car determines the characteristics of the driver, and specifically where it points at 4x4 drivers being more agressive behind the wheel as a whole ?

Young drivers don't drive 4x4s as they are not 'cool' cars . All of these writeups which examine road rage state that younger drivers are much more prone to road rage - I note Tabernacle perfectly fits the mould for a driver prone to road rage. Its a good thing he isn't behind the wheel.

What it does say is that you can manipulate the stats to suit your argument and if you are responsible for town planning FM, you should be ashamed of yourself [;)]

"I'd clean my car with a baby elephant - if I had a baby elephant !"

rothbook · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Now where does it say in any of this that the type of car determines the characteristics of the driver, and specifically where it points at 4x4 drivers being more agressive behind the wheel as a whole ? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It doesn't.

My links clearly show such a phenomena though, and please don't spam the board with reams of irrelevance.

rothbook · June 2007

The urban 4x4 is appallingly inefficient. The Range Rover, for instance, emits 389 grams of CO2 per km, compared to the 138 g/km of a SMART car.

The urban 4x4 is indefensibly dirty. At a local level, it emits more carbon monoxide, unburned hydrocarbons and nitrogen dioxide than two estate cars.

The urban 4x4 is dangerous to pedestrians. A recent BMJ article showed how, in accidents, the extra height and weight of a 4x4 causes direct trauma to the internal organs, thereby increasing the risk of serious injury or death. As for children, they are hit directly about the head.

The urban 4x4 is not even safer for the doofus inside it. UK insurance data shows that urban 4x4s are involved in 25% more accidents than ordinary cars. Euro-NCAP crash tests and accident figures show that the vehicles' greater height increases the risk of rollover.

Opinion polls show that a majority of people in Britain recognise the needless damage done by urban 4x4s.

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

what you are saying is that you can clearly prove that 4x4 drivers are more prone to road rage/aggression /call it what you will. What I'm saying is that there are many other factors which decide this and you are very selective in your sources.

I

Spamming the boards with cut and paste is rich coming from you tabbers - you invented it [:D]

rothbook · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> What I'm saying is that there are many other factors which decide this and you are very selective in your sources.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You mean there are sources that refute the findings above?

How strange you've been unable to post any....

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by rothbook

The urban 4x4 is appallingly inefficient. The Range Rover, for instance, emits 389 grams of CO2 per km, compared to the 138 g/km of a SMART car.

The urban 4x4 is indefensibly dirty. At a local level, it emits more carbon monoxide, unburned hydrocarbons and nitrogen dioxide than two estate cars.

The urban 4x4 is dangerous to pedestrians. A recent BMJ article showed how, in accidents, the extra height and weight of a 4x4 causes direct trauma to the internal organs, thereby increasing the risk of serious injury or death. As for children, they are hit directly about the head.

The urban 4x4 is not even safer for the doofus inside it. UK insurance data shows that urban 4x4s are involved in 25% more accidents than ordinary cars. Euro-NCAP crash tests and accident figures show that the vehicles' greater height increases the risk of rollover.

Opinion polls show that a majority of people in Britain recognise the needless damage done by urban 4x4s.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Opinion poles taken from where - an anti 4x4 group, or 'selective' multiple choice questionnaires ?

Mines an urban 4x4 tabbers and if I needed justification, I already have it. Apart from which, why do i need to justify anything about my lifestyle to someone as sad as you ?

"I'd clean my car with a baby elephant - if I had a baby elephant !"

rothbook · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Opinion poles taken from where <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Poland, duh!

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

Poles, polls whatever, elaborate if you will ?

rothbook · June 2007

Which sources refute the findings above?

Got any?

Any at all?

You asked fo evidence that 4x4 drivers are more aggressive and more likely to disobey the law.

It's been provided.

Yet again you refute the evidence and offer none of your own.

Zilch.

Nada.

Do you think the colossal arrogance of claiming something is not true in the face of overwhelming evidence is reflected in your choice of vehicle?

I mean, from the facts above it seems that 4 x 4 drivers may be compensating for some kind of physical shortcoming of some kind, and I note you chose a black man's penis as your user name.

Got something to confess, winkle?

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

Now you are really scraping the bottom of the barrel Tabernacle - The user name was coined by my wife after I got some cycling shorts, I'm not Black BTW ,its a joke geddit - Do'h

The links I posted have inferred that younger male drivers are more likely to have/cause road rage than older drivers.

Young drivers don't go for 4x4s, they can't get insurance for them, and they aren't fast enough - work it out !

rothbook · June 2007

"Is it in yet?"

CometGirl · June 2007

I don't know why you let yourself get agitated, linford. Just because 4x4 drivers generally aren't great drivers (and they're not, my commute through the heart of the Chelsea Tractor brigade confirms that) doesn't mean you must be crap. As I've said in soapbox, I drive one occasionally (and used to have a Defender 110 that I took offroad) and I know I don't fit into the stereotype. Probably because my cycling mileage far exceeds my driving mileage.

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

When I was up in London the other week on the motorbike (the day of the CM), the worst driving I saw was displayed by taxi drivers and a chavy looking arab idiot in a BMW 645i (these are big cars) who must have seen the wrong side of 70mph on the wrong side of the road into oncoming traffic on Millbank after he passed me at 7:30pm.

When was the last time you saw a 4x4 doing that sort of speed in the centre of london ?

Tabbers bangs on about speed kills, but owning a disco yourself, you can testify that it is not a speed machine ?

London is not representative of the UK as a whole due to the disposable income available.

I'll bet the good professor from the imperial college wouldn't be able to distinguish between a commercial vehicle and a 4x4 if they were put before him because he is a doctor of medicine, not a doctor of mechanical design.

I think they should have done a test to see if they knew the difference before doing the survey, perhaps you could lead with it. Which of these vehicles are not SUVs Tabbers ?

http://tinyurl.com/3c2yrt

http://tinyurl.com/yp3zcf

http://tinyurl.com/2c8oxs

http://tinyurl.com/yv7ha8

http://tinyurl.com/2tetxx

"I'd clean my car with a baby elephant - if I had a baby elephant !"

Unknown · June 2007

vehicles over 6'6" or whatever that is in our new decimal masters numbers, should be excluded from the third lane of motorways. That would reduce there popularity and since highway policing is the only sort our plod can do, it may actualy work!

Work
Play

ACcp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Flying_Monkey

Linford, from what I know of the literature (as a teaching of town planning) I'm afraid Rothbook is entirely correct here - in general and on average - whether or not you personal conduct as driver reflects this. Unless you have any convincing evidence to the contrary - and that does not include your folksy anecdotes - then you simply have nothing to add, regardles of whether you feel bored by the argument or not and regardless of whether you successfully managed to provoke him last time or not.

Why do so many people have so much trouble separating one or two personal experiences from research results across a much larger population? Let's put it this way, as an engineer, if you were to use a material for a key component in an some device, would you trust, a. the mass of research done on tolerances and stresses and so on of that material, which showed compenents made from it to be liable, in general and on average, to serious failures, or b. the word of some bloke on an Internet forum who said, 'well, I had one made from it, and it never broke...'?

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

LLB, did you read FM's post? In all your postings you just keep blathering on about your own personal experiences, and presume all other 4x4 owners are the same as you, and take all criticism of 4x4 on your own shoulders.

Take it on the chin FFS, people buy and drive cars (including 4x4s) for many different reasons, there appears evidence to suggest that the 4x4s are higher risk, which may be caused by their psychology.

Some 4x4 owners are probably lower risk and more environmentally conscious than the average Prius driver. Can't imagine there are many though.

I don't eat newly created species of marine life, or even newly discovered species of marine life for that matter, but if I did eat any sort of marine life, I would use this guide: -www.fishonline.org/information/MCSPocket_Good_Fish_Guide.pdf

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

I'm sorry AC, the assertion that all Prius drivers are angels on the road just doesn't cut it. These cars are being bought in the whole to circumvent the congestion charge, not to be more 'green'. If they really have courage in conviction about the green thing, they'd ditch the prius and use the tube/cycle/walk etc etc.

I can give you concrete evidence that 4x4s are not any more a risk than any other vehicle given a similar size of engine. There are insurance companies who don't specialise in 4x4s as it is a much smaller market :- IE Churchills/Admiral as they are big players and they know the most business can be had in the middle ground.

An underwriter will quote for any car, but if they don't want to deal with them due to lack of specialist knowledge and haven't done the research, they just throw up a stupid figure as a way of saying 'get lost'.

For those companies who have done the sums and research, they offer competitive quotes and want this market.

Its not rocket science and to take the word of 2 insurance companies who don't specialise in this field is a bit like asking an IT guy to mend a tractor.

The underwriters in their specialist sector all without question base their premiums on the drivers record and age. The car choice is secondary when loading the policy.

If you think I am spouting, use one of the major online insurance companies like Tesco's http://www.tescofinance.com/personal/finance/insurance/carins/index.jsp
I welcome the challenge to be proven wrong, and will do something which tabbers is unable to do (admit it)

Why don't they offer a question like 'have you ever bought or owned a 4x4' instead of have you been convicted of any driving offences or had any claims in the last 5 years on the proposal forms ?

People like to bang on about prejudice of gender/colour/religion/cycling etc on here, and the forum is very peecee in that respect, but is happy to offer an unopposed platform for the likes of tabernacle to air his prejudices about people he knows nothing about based solely on their vehicle choice - Double standards which ever way you look at it !

He still hasn't got the bottle to answer my simple multiple choice question - that yellow streak is getting wider !

ScumOfTheRoad · June 2007

Linford, I've just mentioned your name on another thread here. One that you started actually.

I see that you're getting a bit of stick here - and are giving some back. Good for you.
And everyone, remember that this is just an online cycling forum.

School Bullies and 4x4s

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