Leftists vs Rightists

Gary Askwith · June 2007

I find it strange that some on the right-wing-such as Ankev, or even to a lesser extent, spire are beginning-or can see- the negative effects of unrestricted global capitalism [:)] whereas some others respond to any criticism with fingers in ears...... "la la la commies socialists tyrants" etc etc [xx(]
so why can some, but not others...its just not a rational attitude ...therefore one is tempted to look in the direction of either irrationality or a personal vested interest as its source

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

Unknown · June 2007

Well, they obviously don't have any children...

mjones · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

Well, they obviously don't have any children...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yet another incredibly stupid comment. Are you trying to be the Bonj of the left?. Of course I want a sustainable future for my child, but I'm not going to waste my efforts on unworkable solutions or whinging about how unfair it is that people won't vote for the idealistic society that I'd prefer to live in.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

Well, they obviously don't have any children...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I've got two children. Wasn't it you who posted that you don't have any?

Flying_Monkey · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

Well, they obviously don't have any children...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

But we should assume that someone who wants to exterminate the human race does (or should be allowed to)? [;)]

You aren't doing yourself any favours today, Nick...

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

Joe Sacco · June 2007

Just a load of blaming the system/it's all unfair/nobody wants what I want moaning to me. Are you 15 years old Nick?

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Flying_Monkey

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

Well, they obviously don't have any children...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

But we should assume that someone who wants to exterminate the human race does (or should be allowed to)? [;)]

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

"Daddy, daddy, what are you working on?"
"I'm working to exterminate the human race."

Gary Askwith · June 2007

Another example of radical thinking...hey up its not regimented stereotyped unimaginative parlimentery-democracy-criticise-at-your-peril type stuff...ooor er

Cant have that, lets just label it idealistic unworkable commie fascist propaganda [:p][:)]
Phew that saves us having to think[B)]

What is a 'Neighbourhoodie'? Answer: a person who is a member of a new political movement, one that has no headquarters, and makes no attempt to create a mass following, but insteadis comprised of members of a neighbourhood.

Neighbourhood Democracy Network is a network of local people in different small localities seeking to create a local nucleus that will form a local government to govern local affairs.

These (mostly young) people realise that the way the world is going, they have no future; that a combination of the global arms trade, the high-powered attempts by Brussels-based boardroom capitalism to destroy democracy, the promotion of consumerism as a dominant social goal, the factors of global warming, the rundown of essential resourcessuch as oil, the expansion of supermarkets at the expense of local farmers and of local vitality and identity, to say nothing of the disintegration of local community life, can only result in some sort of social collapse involving mass starvation, mass epidemics and mass conflict. That is, unless we achieve a radical change of direction at many levels.

So their idea is a wholly new political initiative: government from the ground up, not from the top down. Local government by local people to control local affairs. Not government of the people, nor (supposedly) for the people, (we have already had enough of that), but government by the people.

Quite mad, impractical and unrealistic, of course, but in a world where madness reigns, they are a gleam of sanity that may yet change things decisively. How?

Since our problems arise from excessive concentrations of power - economic, political and social, power beyond human control, beyond our control; and since it is this power, often running amok, which is causing wars and ecological devastation, destroying any prospect of a sane civilised future, attempts to check it by forming yet another giant organisation is simply to spread the disease of giantism.

Indeed, giantism is public enemy number one of the human race. The giant global arms trade has made the world one gigantic war zone, giant schools are creating a new class of semi-literate unemployables, a giant health service is closing local hospitals, a giant postal service is closing more and more local post offices, and giant supermarkets are bankrupting our local farmers and driving local family-owned shops out of business.

So why not opt for smallness? A scale within which human identity, instead of being told by a recorded voice which button to press, has significance, meaning and moral consequence? A scale where we can control them, not them us.

So the Neighbourhoodies are pushing for local power. It is uphill work, and the chief obstacle is not only the consumerist values promoted by media power but the spirit of passivity and fatalistic indifference that powerlessness is apt to breed. After all, most people have never known any other form of government, so tend to accept that centralised government and boardroom enterprise should determine everything just as naturally as a goldfish accepts the water in which it swims.

Neighbourhoodies refuse to accept this and the doom-laden destiny it has created; they insist that the many forms of power that today ordain our affairs must be brought under control - mostly local control. Their objectives embrace not only local control of local affairs; they call for Britain to abandon the Brussels boardroom, tax-funded attempts to destroy our sovereignty, and to confine the national government at Westminster to strictly national affairs.

They argue the need for a new language of politics, where the local in local hands has the same prominence and significance as the national. But please note, there is no attempt being made to establish any sort of uniform national plan.

Just as every person is different, so is every neighbourhood; so every neighbourhood should work out its own targets for self-government and strategies for reaching them. They realise that democracy, the noblest concept in human history, is eating its own tail when it tries to be prescriptive.

To be true to itself, democracy must be thought-provoking, with an organic structure in which power is made safe by being dispersed and shared in numerous small communities, whether rural villages or urban wards. These are the blood cells of civilisation, and their re-empowerment can have the collective effect of inspiring people to manage their own local affairs, to live creative, responsible and fulfilling lives; and to restore the old protocols, traditions, customs and dignities of local civic activity so that people can play their full part in truly adult, shared political involvement, and where the baby of freedom is no longer in danger of being drowned in the bathwater of bureaucracy.

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

ankev1 · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gary Askwith

I find it strange that some on the right-wing-such as Ankev, or even to a lesser extent, spire are beginning-or can see- the negative effects of unrestricted global capitalism [:)] whereas some others respond to any criticism with fingers in ears...... "la la la commies socialists tyrants" etc etc [xx(]
so why can some, but not others...its just not a rational attitude ...therefore one is tempted to look in the direction of either irrationality or a personal vested interest as its source

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I find it amusing that you think I am of the right. Being consistently and seiously anti-socialist does not automatically mean that one is pro-capitalism. In some aspects I'm culturally conservative (e.g. I hold manners to be hugely important) and I'm a hanger and flogger when it comes to crime but otherwise I'm fairly middle of the road. I suppose I ought to be flattered that somebody's noticed me at all.[:I]

CometGirl · June 2007

I don't think there's a useful distinction to be drawn any more between left and right. The distinction at the moment is between libertarian and authoritarian. The reason people like Ankev are painted as "right wing" is that authoritarian measures (hanging, flogging etc) are associated with the old right wing.

ankev1 · June 2007

Well even that doesn't work to well. My instincts are very libertarian. In fact I think my only moral value is: Do what you want as long as you aren't hurting someone else and try occasionally to do a bit of good.

Hanging and flogging is reserved for those who abuse the freedoms of others and do harm (i.e. criminals). So I don't recognise myself as a authoritarian.

Unkraut · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by CometGirl

I don't think there's a useful distinction to be drawn any more between left and right.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

... in which case you won't mind if I don't accept a lift home. [:D]

redcogs · June 2007

You can give me a lift home Comet ;-)

please look up to the stars.. ***

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ankev1

Well even that doesn't work to well. My instincts are very libertarian. In fact I think my only moral value is: Do what you want as long as you aren't hurting someone else and try occasionally to do a bit of good.

Hanging and flogging is reserved for those who abuse the freedoms of others and do harm (i.e. criminals). So I don't recognise myself as a authoritarian.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

But all libertarians must have a similar 'boiling point'. Just that their punishment is not as extreme as yours.

So libertarians until it all goes a bit wrong?

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ankev1

...My instincts are very libertarian. In fact I think my only moral value is: Do what you want as long as you aren't hurting someone else and try occasionally to do a bit of good.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's all well and good, but there's precious little scope for libertarianism when political life is organised the way it is in this country [V]

So you voted, and now you've got a government. I just hope YOU like it.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Flying_Monkey

You aren't doing yourself any favours today, Nick...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Eh? Are we here to do ourselves favours? Of what might these favours consist? Winning some kind of popularity contest? That sounds to me very much like the behaviour of party politicians [xx(]

So you voted, and now you've got a government. I just hope YOU like it.

ankev1 · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ankev1

Well even that doesn't work to well. My instincts are very libertarian. In fact I think my only moral value is: Do what you want as long as you aren't hurting someone else and try occasionally to do a bit of good.

Hanging and flogging is reserved for those who abuse the freedoms of others and do harm (i.e. criminals). So I don't recognise myself as a authoritarian.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

But all libertarians must have a similar 'boiling point'. Just that their punishment is not as extreme as yours.

So libertarians until it all goes a bit wrong?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Your reply implies that it might be a fault to leave the libertarian path in certain circumstances. It just happens to reflect my instincts. My views on crooks are my response to reality. I wish the circumstances weren't there which make those views a logical outcome.

redcogs · June 2007

In which case ankev, you will welcome the imminent fall of capitalist accumulation, which, of course, is the creator of most crime and most criminals.

please look up to the stars.. ***

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

In which case ankev, you will welcome the imminent fall of capitalist accumulation, which, of course, is the creator of most crime and most criminals.

please look up to the stars.. ***
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Are you saying there is no crime/are no criminals in your lefty states? Any examples?

redcogs · June 2007

i don't detract from Engels. He stated in 1845:

"Present day society..breeds hostility between the individual and everbody else, thus producing a social war of all against all, which, inevitably, in individual cases assumes a brutal, barbarously violent form - that of crime".

Old Fred puts it rather well don't you think?

please look up to the stars.. ***

redcogs · June 2007

Fred Engels went on to observe that a socially co-operative society would "put an axe to the root of crime".

i have some difficulty detracting from this also.

please look up to the stars.. ***

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

Fred Engels went on to observe that a socially co-operative society would "put an axe to the root of crime".

i have some difficulty detracting from this also.

please look up to the stars.. ***
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yeah sounds great. Got any examples of it actually being proved?

bof · June 2007

The good old Soviet Union made nearly everything either illegal or unobtainable, so that in the end gangsters supplied almost everything. What Prohibition did for the Mafia writ large.

That's the problem with giving the masses what you think they want - ie tractors and space rockets, rather than what they actually want.

redcogs · June 2007

Absolutely bof. A perfect illustration of why it was not appropriate or realistic to believe that a class dominated society like the former soviet union could ever be recognised as having been in any way socially equal and democratically co-operative.

Tanks and rockets don't feed the hungry, and don't enhance the prospects of everyone having access to all the necessaries of a more comfortable life.

please look up to the stars.. ***

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

You can give me a lift home Comet ;-)

please look up to the stars.. ***
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Cometgirl isn't going anywhere near North Korea. [;)]

Leftists vs Rightists

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