Leftists vs Rightists

ajevans · June 2007

Is there such a thing as left and right anymore?

Isn't this just applying glib arbitrary labels to something quite complex as an excuse to engage in petty tribalism?

mjones · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ajevans

Is there such a thing as left and right anymore?

Isn't this just applying glib arbitrary labels to something quite complex as an excuse to engage in petty tribalism?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Well I get accused of being a righty by redcogs, gillan1969 et al; but am a leftie in the eyes of bonj, simoncp! I'm sure that (away from Soapbox!) most of us are actually pretty much in the centre ground when it comes to specific policies.

Indeed it would help if we had some more specifics from those advocating radical changes to society- for example redcogs has some unanswered questions from yesterday in another thread, which I'm now shamelessly going to bounce!

spire · June 2007

A lot of lefties on Soapbox generally deny that they are lefties, but the lefty/righty threads have rapidly exposed where people see themselves if they are forced to choose.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ajevans

Isn't this just applying glib arbitrary labels to something quite complex as an excuse to engage in petty tribalism?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, and it's cracking good fun. Just think of what it would be like if redders and I were in the same room - we'd keep to topics of mutual interest and avoid anything too contentious. It would all be thoroughly civilised and a tad less exciting.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

A lot of lefties on Soapbox generally deny that they are lefties, but the lefty/righty threads have rapidly exposed where people see themselves if they are forced to choose.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Why, then, are some people quite unable to position themselves in this simplistic left/right political spectrum?

For example, I believe (as long as we are saddled with the current unsatisfactory political setup) both in a 100% death duty and in the restoration of capital punishment. What am I?

So you voted, and now you've got a government. I just hope YOU like it.

spire · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

A lot of lefties on Soapbox generally deny that they are lefties, but the lefty/righty threads have rapidly exposed where people see themselves if they are forced to choose.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Why, then, are some people quite unable to position themselves in this simplistic left/right political spectrum?

For example, I believe (as long as we are saddled with the current unsatisfactory political setup) both in a 100% death duty and in the restoration of capital punishment. What am I?

So you voted, and now you've got a government. I just hope YOU like it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hoping to get rich after the execution of a lot of rich criminals?

Flying_Monkey · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

A lot of lefties on Soapbox generally deny that they are lefties, but the lefty/righty threads have rapidly exposed where people see themselves if they are forced to choose.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's more about your prejudices I think...

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

A lot of lefties on Soapbox generally deny that they are lefties, but the lefty/righty threads have rapidly exposed where people see themselves if they are forced to choose.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Why, then, are some people quite unable to position themselves in this simplistic left/right political spectrum?

For example, I believe (as long as we are saddled with the current unsatisfactory political setup) both in a 100% death duty and in the restoration of capital punishment. What am I?

So you voted, and now you've got a government. I just hope YOU like it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

A long way away from me!

spire · June 2007

No FM, when the waffle is done, most people know where they stand if they had to choose.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

No FM, when the waffle is done, most people know where they stand if they had to choose.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I know where I stand. It just isn't on Left or Right.

So you voted, and now you've got a government. I just hope YOU like it.

spire · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

No FM, when the waffle is done, most people know where they stand if they had to choose.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I know where I stand. It just isn't on Left or Right.

So you voted, and now you've got a government. I just hope YOU like it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Put it like this: if you had to spend the rest of your life with either simoncp or redcogs, who would you choose? [:D][;)]

Unknown · June 2007

I'd spend my valuable time putting redcogs right on a few of the things he's misguided about.

simoncp is a bit of a lost cause, methinks (if occasionally entertaining).

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

No FM, when the waffle is done, most people know where they stand if they had to choose.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I know where I stand. It just isn't on Left or Right.

So you voted, and now you've got a government. I just hope YOU like it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Put it like this: if you had to spend the rest of your life with either simoncp or redcogs, who would you choose? [:D][;)]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Gulp! You'd better post some pictures then. [:(]

spire · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

I'd spend my valuable time putting redcogs right on a few of the things he's misguided about.

simoncp is a bit of a lost cause, methinks (if occasionally entertaining).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, I think I've shot myself in the foot because I'd make the same choice (as long as they didn't actually have any power).[:D]

Having said that, in his own way, simoncp can be one of the wittiest posters here.

speshcp · June 2007

The old way of ascribing labels of "left wing" or "right wing" is too simplistic. People who have similar views on how the economy should be run may differ wildly when it comes to law and order, personal freedoms etc.

And of course, the converse holds true, in that one civil libertarian may be an advocate of free markets, whereas another may believe in total state control of every aspect of the economy.

<hr noshade size="1">"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein)

Flying_Monkey · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

No FM, when the waffle is done, most people know where they stand if they had to choose.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

There's far more than left-right now though, spire - see the 'neither left nor right' thread.

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

spire · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Flying_Monkey

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

No FM, when the waffle is done, most people know where they stand if they had to choose.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

There's far more than left-right now though, spire - see the 'neither left nor right' thread.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Of course. I'm a mass of contradictions myself!* All I'm really saying is that if people HAD to choose one label or another, most wouldn't hesitate too long.

Gaz, for example ([;)]) says he is neither left nor right, but there's lots of anti-right comment in the righty thread and little anti-left thread in lefty thread.

...............................................

*Anti capital punishment, pro harsh prison regime.

Anti growth economy, pro capitalism.

Etc, etc.

Gary Askwith · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

Gaz, for example ([;)]) says he is neither left nor right, but there's lots of anti-right comment in the righty thread and little anti-left thread in lefty thread.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thats because[:p]
a. There are far more of you 'rightists arond here
b. I enjoy it more
c. Most leftys are(oops seem to be insofar as you can tell from forum monikers) nicer people and i feel twinges of guilt attacking their nievity
d. Leftys have humanity (albeit sentimentally so) closest to their heart but rightists have their vested interest closest to their heart
[:)]

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

mjones · June 2007

Taking a totally objective viewpoint ([;)]), it does strike me that this (albeit contrived) left-right struggle here is rather asymmetrical: there appear to be a lot more representatives of the far-left than of the far-right.

Many of us that get labeled as right-wingers do so for expressing views that would be considered to be fairly mainstream in the real world outside Soapbox. So, for example, here are some of the opinions that have earned me my right-wing credentials:

opposing 100% inheritance tax (it is not unreasonable for people to want to leave an inheritance to their children);

supporting Thatcher's decision to defend the Falkland Islanders against occupation by a right-wing dictatorship;

pointing out that countries with market economies tend to provide a better standard of living for their people than those with centrally planned ones;

pointing out that continuing to prop up clapped-out manufacturing industry in the UK would have imposed massive costs on the rest of the economy and would require protectionist trade policies that hurt the developing world;

supporting the right of parents to educate their children privately, if that is what they chose to do with their own money;

arguing that parents have more responsibility for looking after and educating their own children than they do for other people's children.

I've never called for state funded health, education or welfare to be scrapped; I'm very much in favour of state intervention in the interests of environmental sustainability and social justice; I support fair trade for the developing world. Yet apparently I'm a selfish right-winger who wants to 'kick away the ladder'.

There are plenty of others that have been denounced as right-wingers, often in quite vitriolic language, for expressing views not that different from those above, yet there have actually been very few instances of people advocating policies that might be regarded as truly right wing (contradictory examples welcome!). In contrast, redcogs et al frequently call for policies that sound rather like different versions of communism and would be impossible to implement in a democratic society...

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mjones

opposing 100% inheritance tax (it is not unreasonable for people to want to leave an inheritance to their children);

supporting Thatcher's decision to defend the Falkland Islanders against occupation by a right-wing dictatorship;

pointing out that countries with market economies tend to provide a better standard of living for their people than those with centrally planned ones;

pointing out that continuing to prop up clapped-out manufacturing industry in the UK would have imposed massive costs on the rest of the economy and would require protectionist trade policies that hurt the developing world;

supporting the right of parents to educate their children privately, if that is what they chose to do with their own money;

arguing that parents have more responsibility for looking after and educating their own children than they do for other people's children.

I've never called for state funded health, education or welfare to be scrapped; I'm very much in favour of state intervention in the interests of environmental sustainability and social justice; I support fair trade for the developing world. Yet apparently I'm a selfish right-winger who wants to 'kick away the ladder'.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

All of which views would be perfectly acceptable in the modern Labour Party.

mjones · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Patrick Stevens
...

All of which views would be perfectly acceptable in the modern Labour Party.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
A good thing too- it saves me from the indignity of having to vote Tory! [;)]

spire · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Gary Askwith

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

Gaz, for example ([;)]) says he is neither left nor right, but there's lots of anti-right comment in the righty thread and little anti-left thread in lefty thread.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thats because[:p]
a. There are far more of you 'rightists arond here
b. I enjoy it more
c. Most leftys are(oops seem to be insofar as you can tell from forum monikers) nicer people and i feel twinges of guilt attacking their nievity
d. Leftys have humanity (albeit sentimentally so) closest to their heart but rightists have their vested interest closest to their heart
[:)]

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"><blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mjones

Taking a totally objective viewpoint ([;)]), it does strike me that this (albeit contrived) left-right struggle here is rather asymmetrical: there appear to be a lot more representatives of the far-left than of the far-right.

Many of us that get labeled as right-wingers do so for expressing views that would be considered to be fairly mainstream in the real world outside Soapbox. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Indeed, mjones.

I find Soapbox very left-wing dominated.

I am regarded by many here as pretty far-right, but on the mainstream political barometers (political compass etc) I am only slightly right of centre.

willski · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

*Anti capital punishment, pro harsh prison regime.

Anti growth economy, pro capitalism.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I can see how its possible to be anti capital punishment, pro harsh prison regime, but how can you be anti growth economy, pro capitalism?

If I had a baby elephant, I'd write a witty sig line about it - if I had any wit.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

I am regarded by many here as pretty far-right, but on the mainstream political barometers (political compass etc) I am only slightly right of centre.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Spire, a score of 36 to the right is not slightly right of centre.[;)]

Last time I did it, I was slap bang in the centre, but several notches to the libertarian. [:)]

Chris James · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mjones

Taking a totally objective viewpoint ([;)]), it does strike me that this (albeit contrived) left-right struggle here is rather asymmetrical: there appear to be a lot more representatives of the far-left than of the far-right. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That is interesting as one of things that has often surprised me about Cycling Plus is the number of right wingers on it! Especially since most non cyclists woudl tend to view peopel on bikes as hippy eco warriors.

Most of the right wingers seem to come from the London area and I assumed that London cyclists were different breed from cyclists in the rest of the country.

By the way, I don't consider your views listed above as being particularly right wing although possibly some of them are a little glib as stated and discussion of them would make interesting threads of their own.

Chris James · June 2007

Oh, by the way, I consider spire to be VERY right wing!

spire · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by willski

I can see how its possible to be anti capital punishment, pro harsh prison regime, but how can you be anti growth economy, pro capitalism?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The government makes all its plans based on a growth economy (e.g. more airports).

Let capitalists succeed or fail, according to their merits, but don't base government policy on never-ending growth.

Fewer people, fewer cars, fewer buildings, less concrete, less pollution - all sounds good to me.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Chris James

Especially since most non cyclists woudl tend to view peopel on bikes as hippy eco warriors.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ahem....a fair percentage of those in Race would leave their best mate to die in the gutter if it meant winning a race.

willski · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by willski

I can see how its possible to be anti capital punishment, pro harsh prison regime, but how can you be anti growth economy, pro capitalism?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The government makes all its plans based on a growth economy (e.g. more airports).

Let capitalists succeed or fail, according to their merits, but don't base government policy on never-ending growth.

Fewer people, fewer cars, fewer buildings, less concrete, less pollution - all sounds good to me.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

But if the economy is not growing then it is in recession - which for most is a bad thing. Given that capitalism is built on the idea that the profit motive leads entrepreneurs to utilise their ideas and resources this will by definition result in growth (unless the entrepreneurs are all crap)

Fewer people, cars, buildings, less concrete may sound better in your immediate environment; how do you feel about lower investment returns, or higher debt repayments? what if the reduction hits the services you want to consume? won't this incentivise someone to provide the service thereby triggering growth? what kind of interventionism do you envisage to create the controlled recession?

____________________________________________________________________

If I had a baby elephant, I'd write a witty sig line about it - if I had any wit.

spire · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Patrick Stevens

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

I am regarded by many here as pretty far-right, but on the mainstream political barometers (political compass etc) I am only slightly right of centre.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Spire, a score of 36 to the right is not slightly right of centre.[;)]

Last time I did it, I was slap bang in the centre, but several notches to the libertarian. [:)]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I've done it again. Seem to be moving left (it's this bl**dy lot [;)]).

I'm virtually on the cross-hair! Yuk!

.....................................
Your political compass

Economic Left/Right: 0.50
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.51

spire · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by willski

what kind of interventionism do you envisage to create the controlled recession?

____________________________________________________________________

If I had a baby elephant, I'd write a witty sig line about it - if I had any wit.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Let's start with banning all new airports and cutting available slots on existing ones.

Leftists vs Rightists

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