New to Time Trialling

Shadescp · June 2007

Hi all,

i've recently started doing 10 mile time trialling for the first time (80% of my cycling has been mountain biking until recently).

My first TT attempt was ~29.30 and it nearly killed me getting that. I've now done about fifteen 10s and my best time now is 27.05; however, the last eight races have all been around that time and I just cannot seem to improve further.

I am riding an aging but good qaulity road bike with tri-bars clamped on ; alu frame, mavic open pro wheels, carbon forks, ultegra groupset. Each week I do two 10s, plus one or two hilly 40 mile road rides at a steady pace(20 mph).

I'm lousy at bike mainteneance and tech know-how. The chain/crankset/rear cassette are reasonably clean and are about 1 year old, but they're not spotless as I use the bike for my daily commute in all conditions. I'm wondering if replacing these will help as I know an older chain can make pedalling inefficient. I try and manintain an aero-position during the 10s.

I don't want to splash out on a time trial bike just yet as I want to earn it first by getting around 25/26 minutues. It's tempting to try and "buy time" I guess.

Any general tips on how can I improve from here?
Many thanks.

chriswcp · June 2007

Wheels and tyres. Open pro's are great but not very fast imo, but that's going to cost you money, so would be 'buying time'

On the other hand, getting the right kind of tyres is relatively cheap and is really just leveling the playing field for you.

stevejmo7 · June 2007

Slow down your long rides - if you are doing short 27s for 10,, then 20mph is far too fast for your long rides - should be probably 16-17mph max otherwise you won't recover in time. Also do one short interval session a week i.e. 10 x half miles efforts at 23 mph uphill slightly with easy ride back recovery.

simmers · June 2007

Training - difficult to say what, but try a different approach to give a new stimulus as it sounds like you've hit a plateau. So eg strength by riding hills in big gears, replacing one or both of your 10s with some intense interval sessions to boost V02max, and so on. Reduce intensity/volume every three or four weeks by up to 50% to get some recovery in. Consider having a mid-season 'break'. Then rebuild aerobic endurance and add speed sessions later. etc etc

BeaconRuth · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stevejmo7

Slow down your long rides - if you are doing short 27s for 10,, then 20mph is far too fast for your long rides......<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I would've said 40miles at 20mph was just the business. Now if you could squeeze another ride or two like that into your week.......

andyBcp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BeaconRuth

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stevejmo7

Slow down your long rides - if you are doing short 27s for 10,, then 20mph is far too fast for your long rides......<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I would've said 40miles at 20mph was just the business. Now if you could squeeze another ride or two like that into your week.......
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks Ruth, you've just underlined what I mentioned to the OP, when I responded to this post in Beginners.
Great minds............(sometimes anyway [;)])

http://www.teamvelosportif.co.uk

Shadescp · June 2007

It's useful to hear that rides of that distance and at that speed should help with my 10s. In truth I probably average below 20mph on a 40 mile ride so I will up the tempo. On a good week I do two 40-50 mile rides, but usually just the one.
I tend to include at least one killer climb if I can; the mountain biker in me enjoys slogging up hills.

BeaconRuth · June 2007

I'm glad you agree Andy. I don't think people realise how far 'base' fitness will get them - people are always in such a rush to prescribe intensive intervals and I've never understood why.

Shades - a word of caution. It's not really the av speed of the 40 miles which is important - it's more the intensity (or effort level) at which you're working which is important. Your speed will be affected by terrain, weather, tiredness etc so it's not a very good measure. Have you got a HRM and do you know your maxHR? If so, then you need to be working for as much of the ride as possible at about 80%maxHR. Oh, and I'd forget the 'killer climb' - that is, unless you ride up that at 80%maxHR too?

SteveR_100Milers · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BeaconRuth

I'm glad you agree Andy. I don't think people realise how far 'base' fitness will get them - people are always in such a rush to prescribe intensive intervals and I've never understood why.

Shades - a word of caution. It's not really the av speed of the 40 miles which is important - it's more the intensity (or effort level) at which you're working which is important. Your speed will be affected by terrain, weather, tiredness etc so it's not a very good measure. Have you got a HRM and do you know your maxHR? If so, then you need to be working for as much of the ride as possible at about 80%maxHR. Oh, and I'd forget the 'killer climb' - that is, unless you ride up that at 80%maxHR too?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ruth, isnt that precisely why killer climbs should be part of your training? So long as you keep your cadence up, and ride up a long hill >15 minutes to prevent it becoming an anaerobic explosive weight training session, surely its the next best thing to actually riding 10TT's to get better at 10TT's?

Time! Time! It's always too long and there's never enough!

BeaconRuth · June 2007

I suppose it depends how you define 'killer climb' Steve. Long steady 15 min climbs are not killer ones in my book!

SteveR_100Milers · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BeaconRuth

I suppose it depends how you define 'killer climb' Steve. Long steady 15 min climbs are not killer ones in my book!

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Killer=RPE 7-8 or 85%+ of my MHR* I can make the Rhigos mountain just as painful as the Tumble, the latter is shorter but steeper. Both take me about 20 minutes to get up on the threshold, although admittedly the latter is only possible at about 70 rpm.

*as in estimated and may not be based on actual fact.

Time! Time! It's always too long and there's never enough!

bahzob · June 2007

I would be happy to do a hilly 40 mile road ride at 20mph but not so at a 27min 10 mile one.

So would strongly suggest (though I know its expensive and has mixed views) to invest in a powermeter. Used wisely this will improve all rides but (in my humblingly little experience) especially time trials. I did my first 10 mile TT/25 mile TTs on a standard Roubaix (no tris) bike this month. I didnt worry about speed just keeping power in a steady zone (not too high on climbs, or too low on flat/downhill). Result 24 minute 10 miles, 64 minutes 25. What's more for both rides I know exactly what to train on/do differently next time to go faster.

BeaconRuth · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bahzob

I would be happy to do a hilly 40 mile road ride at 20mph but not so at a 27min 10 mile one.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Sorry, Bahzob, I don't understand what you mean?
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">What's more for both rides I know exactly what to train on/do differently next time to go faster.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">How exactly does the powermeter tell you how to train or what to do differently? Surely it does no more than tell you your power output?

fossyant · June 2007

Don't start throwing cash away to get your speed up in TT's - it takes time and training - don't go spending serious cash on improving the bike other than ensuring your drive train (chain/sprockets etc) are OK.

It's about the rider not the bike (ohh how many times has this been quoted) - and an Ultegra equipped machine is a good one.

Just get some more training in/ recovery and it may take a year or two but keep at it ! Don't get disheartened at what others do as we all have different life demands, so a gradual improvement in speed is good.

Just record wind/weather conditions as you do your races to monitor your improvements. You also need slower recovery rides before races - ie. not training zones - easy spinning sessions.

You also might want to use lot's of 10's for training sessions... nothing better than racing....[:D]

cswebbo · June 2007

I have never managed a training ride anywhere near 20mph average (p.b. is 22.21 for 10 miles). If you are going that fast training you should be a lot faster racing than 27 minutes!
What sort of course was the 27 minute 10 ride done on ?

A pair of deep section wheels will help improve your time along with good tyres/tubulars (ie Veloflex/Vittoria cx/Continental gp4000).

campagman · June 2007

I don't think you are doing anything wrong and think you are doing right to learn how to ride TT's first before chucking money at the problem. One thing that I don't see talked about very much is the mental side of TT'ing. Concentration is a big part and improves with practice. How does your time compare to others?

remember to keep pedalling in circles.

Ryedaleman · June 2007

What gear you using?
Try to maintain 100-110rpm rev cadence, on a 81 inch gear you'll be getting close to a long 25. Dont be tempted to just use 52x12 and grind it, you will only be reving at 60 ish for a 27min 10.
Most riders use gears that are too big, practice spinning on smaller gears...

bahzob · June 2007

BeaconRuth:
> I guess hilly means different things to different people, made even more difficult by the fact that no two methods of calculating elevation on same route seem to agree (see Ride>Highclere thread for e.g.s). But for me I use rule of thumb that "hilly" means 10m ascent every km on average measured on my HAC4 (which seems to measure about 70% of a Garmin). This may not sound much but it fits Highclere (1900m in 188km). 20mph for 40 miles on this sort of terrain is what I train at and as a result I would expect (and did) go more than just 2mph faster over a shorter (and I guess flatter) route.

>Previous answer was long enough, this could be much bigger. Just 2 examples specific to me:
>> Training: on 10 I set myself a simple target given this was my first TT. So average 320W out and see how I felt on return. I felt pretty good and did 330W back. I reckon I can improve this so I am doing criss cross drills 345><280 whereas previously they were 320><260. Not sure what other data from the ride I could use in such a way.
>> Do differently: It being my first TT I was of course new to the course. At the time, confirmed later looking at the power curve, I felt there were parts where I lost a bit of focus and let the power drop. Also there is a spike at a climb that is too sharp and I need to smooth out. Having a view of power helps me to visualise the course in terms of a power profile which helps me plan my ride.

I write above a someone at latter relatively new to cycling and very new to TT. I don't expect it will change views of those very experienced. But I would say that my best advice to newcomers (as in this thread) based on my experience is to train/ride using a power measure. Especially so if you plan to do things other than TTs, e.g. sportives. (Just one specific example of why. Recent sportive someone with me had a rush of blood to the head and attacked the bottom of a climb. I could see they were doing over 400W and knew well before they did that they would crack which they did big time and suffered for the rest of the ride.)

Colin Watts · June 2007

I have only done 2 10 mile TT's with a best time of 29:40.
I will be interested to see it the mileage that I have done over the last couple of moths for the run and cycle of the 3 Peaks last week will have improved this.
I averaged 14 mph over the 540 miles, although that was over 6 days, 88, 81, 84, 122, 120 and 41 with a bit of hill running.
So I should be faster now.

Colin

Shadescp · June 2007

I've not called in for a couple of weeks. Really interesting replies.

So, I think I will reduce the number of 10s Im doing from two or three down to one per week. I'll also invest in a heart rate monitor and learn how to use it! Plus increase my "base training". I think new tyres and maybe wheels are worth investing in for now.

Colin Watts · June 2007

You were doing 2-3 per week!
I wouldn't have thought that would produce good results, you need to rest in between each hard effort to let your body strengthen.

Colin

chriswcp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bahzob

BeaconRuth:
> I guess hilly means different things to different people, made even more difficult by the fact that no two methods of calculating elevation on same route seem to agree (see Ride>Highclere thread for e.g.s). But for me I use rule of thumb that "hilly" means 10m ascent every km on average measured on my HAC4 (which seems to measure about 70% of a Garmin). This may not sound much but it fits Highclere (1900m in 188km). 20mph for 40 miles on this sort of terrain is what I train at and as a result I would expect (and did) go more than just 2mph faster over a shorter (and I guess flatter) route.

>Previous answer was long enough, this could be much bigger. Just 2 examples specific to me:
>> Training: on 10 I set myself a simple target given this was my first TT. So average 320W out and see how I felt on return. I felt pretty good and did 330W back. I reckon I can improve this so I am doing criss cross drills 345><280 whereas previously they were 320><260. Not sure what other data from the ride I could use in such a way.
>> Do differently: It being my first TT I was of course new to the course. At the time, confirmed later looking at the power curve, I felt there were parts where I lost a bit of focus and let the power drop. Also there is a spike at a climb that is too sharp and I need to smooth out. Having a view of power helps me to visualise the course in terms of a power profile which helps me plan my ride.

I write above a someone at latter relatively new to cycling and very new to TT. I don't expect it will change views of those very experienced. But I would say that my best advice to newcomers (as in this thread) based on my experience is to train/ride using a power measure. Especially so if you plan to do things other than TTs, e.g. sportives. (Just one specific example of why. Recent sportive someone with me had a rush of blood to the head and attacked the bottom of a climb. I could see they were doing over 400W and knew well before they did that they would crack which they did big time and suffered for the rest of the ride.)

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Can I get this right, you're new to time trialing and you're knocking out 330w plus for a ten?

What time did this give you?
What power meter were you using?

andyBcp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by chrisw

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bahzob

BeaconRuth:
> I guess hilly means different things to different people, made even more difficult by the fact that no two methods of calculating elevation on same route seem to agree (see Ride>Highclere thread for e.g.s). But for me I use rule of thumb that "hilly" means 10m ascent every km on average measured on my HAC4 (which seems to measure about 70% of a Garmin). This may not sound much but it fits Highclere (1900m in 188km). 20mph for 40 miles on this sort of terrain is what I train at and as a result I would expect (and did) go more than just 2mph faster over a shorter (and I guess flatter) route.

>Previous answer was long enough, this could be much bigger. Just 2 examples specific to me:
>> Training: on 10 I set myself a simple target given this was my first TT. So average 320W out and see how I felt on return. I felt pretty good and did 330W back. I reckon I can improve this so I am doing criss cross drills 345><280 whereas previously they were 320><260. Not sure what other data from the ride I could use in such a way.
>> Do differently: It being my first TT I was of course new to the course. At the time, confirmed later looking at the power curve, I felt there were parts where I lost a bit of focus and let the power drop. Also there is a spike at a climb that is too sharp and I need to smooth out. Having a view of power helps me to visualise the course in terms of a power profile which helps me plan my ride.

I write above a someone at latter relatively new to cycling and very new to TT. I don't expect it will change views of those very experienced. But I would say that my best advice to newcomers (as in this thread) based on my experience is to train/ride using a power measure. Especially so if you plan to do things other than TTs, e.g. sportives. (Just one specific example of why. Recent sportive someone with me had a rush of blood to the head and attacked the bottom of a climb. I could see they were doing over 400W and knew well before they did that they would crack which they did big time and suffered for the rest of the ride.)

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Can I get this right, you're new to time trialing and you're knocking out 330w plus for a ten?

What time did this give you?
What power meter were you using?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

From page 1, bahzob mentions a 24min 10

Using the kreuzotter site, for a 330w average for 24mins, an example would be a 5'10" at 180lbs using drops on a standard road bike - ie no tri bars.
I would also expect the method that HAC4 uses to calculate accurate power output maybe subject to question, but would act as a good pace setter none-the-less.
Remember Chris, it's not just power, it's weight and frontal area.
I would like Bahzob to elaborate more though.

http://www.teamvelosportif.co.uk

ClaireV · June 2007

I'd be pretty well chuffed with 330 W!

andyBcp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ClaireV

I'd be pretty well chuffed with 330 W!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

But Claire, my point is that 330w does not mean an awful lot without a bodyweight and riding position that give you a fast time.

For example, at ~70kg, and a good aero position, 330w average for a 10 would get me a long 20/short 21, because all 3 factors have to be considered in order for the power output to mean anything.

http://www.teamvelosportif.co.uk

chriswcp · June 2007

Come on Andy, you know, I know all that.[;)]

and as you know 300w+ is a good number for any rockie timetrialist, hence the question relating to accuracy or time or equipment used.

I'd like to suggest that on a tt bike and flat course I'd be very disappointed if my stelar 330w ONLY gave me a 24, but we need more info.

ClaireV · June 2007

Yes, I know all that, but I'd still be pretty well chuffed with 330 W - I can probably only hold that power for about a minute!

andyBcp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ClaireV

Yes, I know all that, but I'd still be pretty well chuffed with 330 W - I can probably only hold that power for about a minute!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I can only hold it for about 4 minutes!

http://www.teamvelosportif.co.uk

Slotester · June 2007

New to the forum but as someone who has been riding TT's for over 30 years I thought I would add my tuppence worth.
I am now 50 and returned to the sport this year after a few years off. First thing I did when I started training last November was to invest in some independent coaching - I have found a qualified coach who does not charge the earth but gives me all the support I need. This has served to give real structure to my training and has taken a lot of the pressure off me - I just look at my programme on a day to day basis and go out and do it without having to think. I have so far this season already achieved most of my goals time wise - I have set my best '10' mile time in 19 years and my best '25' for 14 years. All this has been achieved on a standard road with clip-on tri bars - no fancy kit at all. I do use a HRM for training, but only really for my long endurance rides. HRM's I find are next to useless for doing serious interval work & I now find that I race better by relying on 'feel' - only use the HRM to make sure that I don't over do it on the climbs.
So my first advice would be to get some independent coaching before even thinking about power metres or expensive gizmos. Also, looking at the original posting, I was surprised to see the speeds which were being achieved on the longer training rides. As someone who is currently doing 25 minutes 10's I would average around 18mph for my endurance rides. The real speed comes from the interval work. Rest too is another vital factor in the training plan. The biggest thing I have learned from my coach is the importance of rest - I now do less training than before but with more quality and more rest.
Hope this is of some help.

ClaireV · June 2007

That sounds sensible. The rest bit's the part I haven't quite figured out - I'm a grand master at arriving for races absolutely knackered!

New to Time Trialling

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