Thick Kids

Clive Atton · June 2007

Canrider,

Yes, they probably tailor the teaching to the tests but I think it's reasonable to assume that if a person could pass three old 1970s A Levels with average grades and then the same person could pass six current AS Levels with the same average grades then the current AS levels have to be easier.

Perhaps the breadth of knowledge required of a subject is narrower, perhaps more marks are given now than would have been for the same answer. The ultimate extrapolation of this would be a maths A Level where the syllabus only has to cover the Two Times Table and in the exam they ask one question - what is 2 times 2? Wow, we could all get a 100% pass mark (especially if you didn't even have to spell two correctly) then and I bet the gu'ment would be dead proud of it's educational achievements.

spire · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by peterbr

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mr_hippo

Whilst not denying that dyslexia, dyscalculia, dyspraxia and other conditions exist, I would like to know the percentage increase over the past two decades and the reasons for it. Little Johnny is a slow learner, he gets there but he is slow, does this make him a dyslexic student?

http://bangkokhippo.blogspot.com/

Ex-XXL weigh-in 9/10 June: Update published: Monday 11 June
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Mr hippo, you make a lot of sense.

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You too, peterbr![:)]

ChrisKH · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by simoncp

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by willski

Dyslexia was introduced into this debate on the premise that parents are in denial about their children's abilities. This appears to me to be groundless unless you can argue otherwise. Over to you.

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I'm sure you'd agree some middle class children are just plain thick.

But how many parents of such kids have you actually met that will admit this?

Of all the parents I know with below average performance kids, only one admits their son is just dim; all the others have dyslexia, dyspraxia, ADD, blah, blah.

Having a stupid child is embarrassing; having one with a 'special need' isn't.

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While I was a teacher I came across dozens of middle-class parents who just could not accept that their child was of average ability, never mind below average. This is when I became aware of just how easy it is to make money from middle-class parents by doing private tuition, most of which makes little or no difference.

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I'd have to disagree on this one. Motivation is a big factor also. I was a below average student with hearing difficulties until the age of 11 when I had a personal epiphany and put my head down and worked harder. I had to do it without any real support. I'm not a brain surgeon, but I get by.

In retrospect, much of the reason for my academic failure at that time (5 through 11) was disinterested parents and, to be frank, f*&^ing crap teachers. Private tuition would have helped, and may have brought forward my epiphany or improved my educational development.

Baby elephants are so last year, darling.

peterbr · June 2007

The current A level simply isn't what A level was originally designed as.

For a start O and A levels were designed as exams to reflect the level of achievement that could be obtained from the wider population - not 16 and 18 year olds as the current system is geared to.

A GCE 'O' level at grade "C" was the expected grade an average person could achieve. This was also deemed approximately equal to a GCE 'A' level at grade "F" - the lowest pass grade.

If people are achieving 5, 6 or whatever A levels at high grades, then this by definition cannot apply.

Indeed, the whole 'A' level system was aimed at only the top 20% in schools. Whether you consider this now elitist isn't really the issue, it would have been more sense to rename it as it was when 'o' levels were changed in the 1980s to take into account changing education patterns.

'A' level now also include a large element is coursework, this opens the possibility of parental and Google assistance which wasn't previously an issue.

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Elephants - where were they when we were fighting the nazis? Eh? Eh?

mr_hippo · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Canrider

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I don't ever remember calling the NLT a plc, can you show me where? Did I say that they are making a profit?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I was editorialising. Did you plan to present any evidence in support of, really, anything you've said on this thread at any point, or should we just keep needling you?
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You join this thread on page 6, just who are the 'we' that you refer to?

http://bangkokhippo.blogspot.com/

Ex-XXL weigh-in 9/10 June: Update published: Monday 11 June

Canrider · June 2007

Clive,

I'm afraid I don't agree with your first paragraph. I don't think what you've stated is necessarily 'reasonable'. It *might* be reasonable but I don't think you or I have enough knowledge of trends in teaching (as they stand at the coalface, not at the level of government strategies) to assess whether your statement is accurate or not.

Digging a bit, I note that the American SAT test I alluded to earlier has in fact been changed over the years. Increasing numbers of students from less-elite high schools taking the test reduced the average score from near the target of 500 to the mid-400s, so they 'recentered' it in 1995. Then in 2005 to correct for rising numbers of perfect scores, they made the questions slightly harder. This tends to confirm my suspicion that exam preparation has gotten more intensive over time yielding higher scores.

Note that in the case of the SAT, they're committed to maintaining an average score of 500 with standard deviation of 100, so they're taking steps to reduce results rather than improve them in the case of DES!

"We will never win until the oil runs out or they invent hover cars - but then they may land on us." -- lardarse rider

Canrider · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">You join this thread on page 6, just who are the 'we' that you refer to?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Royal?

And I take this to indicate that no, you won't be presenting any kind of factual evidence in support of your position at any time.

"We will never win until the oil runs out or they invent hover cars - but then they may land on us." -- lardarse rider

mr_hippo · June 2007

If you read any of my earlier replies I said anecdotal evidence. You. on the other hand write, "that the American SAT test I alluded to earlier has in fact been changed..." but you have failed to quote your source.

http://bangkokhippo.blogspot.com/

Ex-XXL weigh-in 9/10 June: Update published: Monday 11 June

Canrider · June 2007

Yawn. Ever heard of Google? It is said that certain historical events can be verified by entering them into the magical box..

Brief history of the 1995 recentering:
http://englishplus.com/news/news0399.htm
2005 changes:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1272/is_2718_133/ai_n12938321

For a summary:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT#History.2C_name_changes_and_recentered_scores

"We will never win until the oil runs out or they invent hover cars - but then they may land on us." -- lardarse rider

simoncp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by peterbr

The current A level simply isn't what A level was originally designed as.

For a start O and A levels were designed as exams to reflect the level of achievement that could be obtained from the wider population - not 16 and 18 year olds as the current system is geared to.

A GCE 'O' level at grade "C" was the expected grade an average person could achieve. This was also deemed approximately equal to a GCE 'A' level at grade "F" - the lowest pass grade.

If people are achieving 5, 6 or whatever A levels at high grades, then this by definition cannot apply.

Indeed, the whole 'A' level system was aimed at only the top 20% in schools. Whether you consider this now elitist isn't really the issue, it would have been more sense to rename it as it was when 'o' levels were changed in the 1980s to take into account changing education patterns.

'A' level now also include a large element is coursework, this opens the possibility of parental and Google assistance which wasn't previously an issue.

<hr noshade size="1">
Elephants - where were they when we were fighting the nazis? Eh? Eh?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The expansion of the middle class meant that many more parents became anxious for their children to succeed at school and to go on to university. This was achieved by downgrading the A level, expanding the higher education system and scrapping less desirable terms such as 'polytechnic'. So now nearly every middle class kid can have A levels and a university degree.

Apart from the difficulty employers now have in discriminating between so many people with so many qualifications I don't see a problem with this if it makes people happy and allows them to keep up with the Joneses when bragging about their wonderful children. Employers can always use aptitude tests, and more do each year.

papercorn2000 · June 2007

Yeah, everyone has a degree in Media Studies but can they get a useful job? And who is going to fix that leak under the sink?

God told me to skin you alive.
http://www.ekroadclub.co.uk/

Flying_Monkey · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mr_hippo

A lot of my evidence is indeed anecdotal but have yet to find anyone who can furnish stats which are unbiased. Can you back your opinions up, Flying Monkey?
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On the whole, yes. As a professional researcher it's my job. I don't particularly have an opinion on this one, but I can spot others with a lack of evidence a mile off...

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

mr_hippo · June 2007

From http://www.tes.co.uk/section/staffroom/ ... sagePage=1

This is part of a letter from a qualified primary teacher and if this is an indication of the literacy of modern teachers then all parents with school age kids ought to be worried.

"I had a pupils mother in very upset, because her daughter told her I was picking on her. This pupil is known for her lies in the school and can be talkative and doesn't listen. However her punishments (when neccessary) are the same as everybody elses.
I was so taking back about this aligations that I started taking notes on any rewards and punishments, that have been forced unto this child."

There are examples of very poor sentence construction, misplaced punctuation and possessives without apostrophes. The writer does not know when to use 'this' and when to use 'these' when he/she speaks of 'this aligations' [sic] and, yes, I have noticed but not commented on the spelling mistakes. There is a nonsensical phrase - 'I was so taking back.' and also the strange use of a 'biblical' phrase - 'forced unto'. Later in the thread, the writer says that he/she was in a hurry! That excuse is on a par with 'I left my homework on the bus.'

http://bangkokhippo.blogspot.com/

Ex-XXL weigh-in 9/10 June: Update published: Monday 11 June

Noodley · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by peterbr

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mr_hippo

Whilst not denying that dyslexia, dyscalculia, dyspraxia and other conditions exist, I would like to know the percentage increase over the past two decades and the reasons for it. Little Johnny is a slow learner, he gets there but he is slow, does this make him a dyslexic student?

http://bangkokhippo.blogspot.com/

Ex-XXL weigh-in 9/10 June: Update published: Monday 11 June
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Mr hippo, you make a lot of sense.

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You too, peterbr![:)]
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you don't spire [;)][:D][}:)]

gavintc · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by peterbr

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mr_hippo

Whilst not denying that dyslexia, dyscalculia, dyspraxia and other conditions exist, I would like to know the percentage increase over the past two decades and the reasons for it. Little Johnny is a slow learner, he gets there but he is slow, does this make him a dyslexic student?

http://bangkokhippo.blogspot.com/

Ex-XXL weigh-in 9/10 June: Update published: Monday 11 June
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Mr hippo, you make a lot of sense.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You too, peterbr![:)]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Well my son has a tested IQ of 150 but has significant dyslexia. He has been assessed by an Ed Psych as dyslexic. I am quite confident that the condition exists.

grayo59 · June 2007

So perhaps dyslexia isn't a load of carp then?[:D]

__________________
......heading for the box, but not too soon I hope!

spire · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by gavintc

Well my son has a tested IQ of 150 but has significant dyslexia. He has been assessed by an Ed Psych as dyslexic. I am quite confident that the condition exists.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't think that anyone is denying that it does exist - it's just that the term is grossly over-used.

Thick Kids

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