Thick Kids

Asterixcp · June 2007

In the 80's I did a computer science degree and was rather surprised that those with considerable aptitude for programming had dreadful spelling when writing prose. As we all know, computers are rather picky about spelling, so how did these people spell correctly when using the programming language? (Our shoe-string facilities then did not include a spell-checker or similar aids)

Pour vivre heureux, vivons le v‚lo..

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Asterix

In the 80's I did a computer science degree and was rather surprised that those with considerable aptitude for programming had dreadful spelling when writing prose. As we all know, computers are rather picky about spelling, so how did these people spell correctly when using the programming language? (Our shoe-string facilities then did not include a spell-checker or similar aids)

Pour vivre heureux, vivons le v‚lo..
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Possibly because the computer (unlike their teachers) did not let them get away with doing it wrong.

mr_hippo · June 2007

willski, you are going by one set of stats and as we know stats can prove anything. If you put your head in a gas oven on gas mark 3 and your feet in the freezer, overall you would be comfortable. You keep on about level 4 reading skills but how do they compare with the old 11 plus?
Did you ever see that Channel 4 programme 'That'll teach them'? 30 bright students were 'transported back' to the 50s. They sat and mostly failed an exam in the first few days. They thought that it was an old 'O' level paper when in fact it was an old 11 plus! These students, going to start their A level course in the next school year, could not pass an exam set for 11 year olds! I admit that that was only a small sample.
The questions are 'What can we do about fallen standards?' and 'Do we want the generation after next to be completely illiterate?' First of all, we can scrap these 'confetti certificates'. For GCSE, only award certificates for A* to D and for grades E,F,G and U - no certificate. Scrap half of the GCSE courses, there are barely enough resources for core subjects.

http://bangkokhippo.blogspot.com/

Ex-XXL weigh-in 9/10 June: Update published: Monday 11 June

papercorn2000 · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by papercorn2000

So are you saying that dyslexia doesn't exist? Or are you saying that some people use it as a convenient excuse.

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I haven't said dyslexia doesn't exist.

For genuine dyslexics there are few allowances made in real life, so I wonder what value an exam has that treats them as a special case.

For a whole raft of others, the whole thing is a scam. There are many parents who just can't accept their children are thick, and look for a label that is an acceptable excuse. The middle class are especially guilty here.
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Curious you say that. I work in a special needs school - mainly with kids who have mild learning problems although there are a few with more severe problems and even complex difficulties. Anyway...

Listening to the kids talking with each other and asking the others why they are at a special needs school, many are keen to say that they are dyslexic. That is to say, they are totally 'normal' apart from this unfortunate affliction which means that they can't cope with a mainstream school.

God told me to skin you alive.
http://www.ekroadclub.co.uk/

spire · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by papercorn2000

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

... and look for a label that is an acceptable excuse.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Listening to the kids talking with each other and asking the others why they are at a special needs school, many are keen to say that they are dyslexic. That is to say, they are totally 'normal' apart from this unfortunate affliction which means that they can't cope with a mainstream school.

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Children doing just as the parents do (applying a label). (If it makes it easier for the kids to deal with their problem, then fine.)

Fnaar · June 2007

I used to work in FE colleges. One of my colleagues used to encourage the weaker students to go to their doc and try to get a diagnosis of dyslexia! I was shocked, and argued it out with him. He thought it a reasonable thing to do. I couldn't persuade him otherwise. I moved on. He's still doing it, I guess. [:)]

kinckers kanckers konckers [:D]

papercorn2000 · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by papercorn2000

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

... and look for a label that is an acceptable excuse.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Listening to the kids talking with each other and asking the others why they are at a special needs school, many are keen to say that they are dyslexic. That is to say, they are totally 'normal' apart from this unfortunate affliction which means that they can't cope with a mainstream school.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Children doing just as the parents do (applying a label). (If it makes it easier for the kids to deal with their problem, then fine.)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yeah, you're right. It's an easy excuse for some parents rather than accepting that their progeny are just a bit dim.

God told me to skin you alive.
http://www.ekroadclub.co.uk/

mr_hippo · June 2007

Whilst not denying that dyslexia, dyscalculia, dyspraxia and other conditions exist, I would like to know the percentage increase over the past two decades and the reasons for it. Little Johnny is a slow learner, he gets there but he is slow, does this make him a dyslexic student?

http://bangkokhippo.blogspot.com/

Ex-XXL weigh-in 9/10 June: Update published: Monday 11 June

willski · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

Do you have a single scrap of evidence (silly anecdotes don't count) that either of these statements is NOT true?

What percentage of claims of dyslexia are TRUE? Let's see the figures!
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Lets set aside that it is you that made the assertion, and the burden of proof rests with you. Here is a definition of dyslexia;

http://www.dyslexiaaction.org.uk/Page.aspx?PageId=13

Here are some stats on how many people meet that definition;

http://www.dyslexiaaction.org.uk/Page.aspx?PageId=29#q5

All of the claims can be considered to be genuine. No anecdotes required. I can find no figures at all for false claims. Over to you

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Which standards have fallen? Degrees, A levels, GCSEs, general literacy and numeracy.
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....so you didn't bother to read the earlier posts with all the figures that show that literacy is rising, but not fast enough?

OK. Here they are again. http://www.literacytrust.org.uk/Researc ... ndex3.html

I don't doubt the sincerity of your opinions, but this does not make them facts.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
If you had a baby elephant, you'd write a witty sig line about it - if you had any wit. [;)]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If you had a baby elephant you could ask it to explain self-depricating humour to you.

____________________________________________________________________

If I had a baby elephant, I'd write a witty sig line about it - if I had any wit.

spire · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by willski
If you had a baby elephant you could ask it to explain self-depricating humour to you.

____________________________________________________________________

If I had a baby elephant, I'd write a witty sig line about it - if I had any wit.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Self-deprecating humour is often the reverse of what it purports to be.

"Look at me, I'm so great, I can even be rude about myself!"

Not only that, when it is repeated ad nauseum it becomes extremely tedious.

But perhaps you are just being factual after all.

willski · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mr_hippo

willski, you are going by one set of stats and as we know stats can prove anything. If you put your head in a gas oven on gas mark 3 and your feet in the freezer, overall you would be comfortable. You keep on about level 4 reading skills but how do they compare with the old 11 plus?
Did you ever see that Channel 4 programme 'That'll teach them'? 30 bright students were 'transported back' to the 50s. They sat and mostly failed an exam in the first few days. They thought that it was an old 'O' level paper when in fact it was an old 11 plus! These students, going to start their A level course in the next school year, could not pass an exam set for 11 year olds! I admit that that was only a small sample.
The questions are 'What can we do about fallen standards?' and 'Do we want the generation after next to be completely illiterate?' First of all, we can scrap these 'confetti certificates'. For GCSE, only award certificates for A* to D and for grades E,F,G and U - no certificate. Scrap half of the GCSE courses, there are barely enough resources for core subjects.

http://bangkokhippo.blogspot.com/

Ex-XXL weigh-in 9/10 June: Update published: Monday 11 June
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I agree that we could waste much time arguing more and more about less and less. The key thing is that what the National Literacy Trust are showing is that standards are not falling, they are failling to rise quickly enough. This goes against what many posting here seem to believe, and certainly goes against the vague posts about "trendy teaching methods" being to blame.

It really comes down to whether you really want to understand underlying causes and problems or have your prejudices sured up.

_________________________________________________________________

If I had a baby elephant, I'd write a witty sig line about it - if I had any wit.

spire · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by willski

...have your prejudices sured up.

_________________________________________________________________

If I had a baby elephant, I'd write a witty sig line about it - if I had any wit. [xx(]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Is this a new way of saying 'made certain'...

...sorry, you mean 'shored up'.

(Oh, those improving literacy standards! [;)])

willski · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by willski
If you had a baby elephant you could ask it to explain self-depricating humour to you.

____________________________________________________________________

If I had a baby elephant, I'd write a witty sig line about it - if I had any wit.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Self-depricating humour is often the reverse of what it purports to be.

"Look at me, I'm so great, I can even be rude about myself!"

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Why would I need to be rude about myself when I've got you to do it for me?

___________________________________________________________________

If I had a baby elephant, I'd write a witty sig line about it - if I had any wit.

steviesch · June 2007

fwiw its DeprEcating...u kretin!

mr_hippo · June 2007

willski, you are putting your faith in the National Literacy Trust but why? From their website - http://www.literacytrust.org.uk/Databas ... stics.html
"This information is taken from original sources and not endorsed by the National Literacy Trust." - We have taken a few sets of stats and have manipulated them for our purposes. The National Literacy Trust is a business relying on sponsorship and donations so what sort of a face do they want to show? Success or failure. So by manipulating stats and changing the goal posts shows sponsors that they are successful!
Dyslexia is a specific learning difficulty that mainly affects reading and spelling so why does the modern definition encompass many other conditions?

http://bangkokhippo.blogspot.com/

Ex-XXL weigh-in 9/10 June: Update published: Monday 11 June

spire · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by steviesch

fwiw its DeprEcating...u kretin!
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Never quote willski without checking the spelling![:I][:I]

steviesch · June 2007

...peepul wot kant spel,peepul wot dont chek speling...wear wil it al end??

willski · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mr_hippo

willski, you are putting your faith in the National Literacy Trust but why? From their website - http://www.literacytrust.org.uk/Databas ... stics.html
"This information is taken from original sources and not endorsed by the National Literacy Trust." - We have taken a few sets of stats and have manipulated them for our purposes. The National Literacy Trust is a business relying on sponsorship and donations so what sort of a face do they want to show? Success or failure. So by manipulating stats and changing the goal posts shows sponsors that they are successful!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So you have successfully cast some doubts on the data. Your assertions about the NLT manipulating stats is just that - an assertion. It does not amount to evidence that standards have fallen, merely casts some unsubstatiated doubt on the evidence that they have risen. Are you sure* you are not just trying to shore* up your prejudices?

(*thanks spire)

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Dyslexia is a specific learning difficulty that mainly affects reading and spelling so why does the modern definition encompass many other conditions?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dyslexia was introduced into this debate on the premise that parents are in denial about their children's abilities. This appears to me to be groundless unless you can argue otherwise. Over to you.

___________________________________________________________________

If I had a baby elephant, I'd write a witty sig line about it - if I had any wit.

mr_hippo · June 2007

willski, where is your evidence? You cannot cite the NLT any more as you said that I have successfully cast doubts on the data.

http://bangkokhippo.blogspot.com/

Ex-XXL weigh-in 9/10 June: Update published: Monday 11 June

Flying_Monkey · June 2007

Mr Hippo, have you got any contrary data? It's all very well saying you've 'succesfuly cast doubts' (which I don't think you really have anyway, you've just successfully expressed cynicism!), but do you have any counter-argument, quantitative or qualitative, which is even as well-supported as this? If you haven't all you've got is anecdote and opinion...

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

Clive Atton · June 2007

Regarding whether or not exams are easier now I believe they must be. I keep hearing of kids taking four, five or even six A ( or do I mean AS?) Levels. I went to Woking Grammar so I can't be totally stupid and had to work bloody hard to pass three A Levels (with very average passes). There were a number (no more than half a dozen out of 140 pupils) of true genii in my year and they were permitted by special permission to take four A Levels.

Unless evolution has speeded up in the last thirty years I fail to see how it's possible for the IQs of the current generation to be double mine, especially when they couldn't identify a ****ing litter bin if it smashed them in the face................

spire · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by willski

Dyslexia was introduced into this debate on the premise that parents are in denial about their children's abilities. This appears to me to be groundless unless you can argue otherwise. Over to you.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm sure you'd agree some middle class children are just plain thick.

But how many parents of such kids have you actually met that will admit this?

Of all the parents I know with below average performance kids, only one admits their son is just dim; all the others have dyslexia, dyspraxia, ADD, blah, blah.

Having a stupid child is embarrassing; having one with a 'special need' isn't.

spire · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Clive Atton

Regarding whether or not exams are easier now I believe they must be. I keep hearing of kids taking four, five or even six A ( or do I mean AS?) Levels. I went to Woking Grammar so I can't be totally stupid and had to work bloody hard to pass three A Levels (with very average passes). There were a number (no more than half a dozen out of 140 pupils) of true genii in my year and they were permitted by special permission to take four A Levels.

Unless evolution has speeded up in the last thirty years I fail to see how it's possible for the IQs of the current generation to be double mine, especially when they couldn't identify a ****ing litter bin if it smashed them in the face................
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Quite right. At my grammar school only the mega-brains achieved 3 straight As - nowadays that's just par for the course for top state streams and private schools.

mr_hippo · June 2007

A lot of my evidence is indeed anecdotal but have yet to find anyone who can furnish stats which are unbiased. Can you back your opinions up, Flying Monkey?

http://bangkokhippo.blogspot.com/

Ex-XXL weigh-in 9/10 June: Update published: Monday 11 June

Canrider · June 2007

Clive: I think you'll find what's happened at least in part is that schools have gotten better at teaching to the test. Rather than teaching the subject and the student having to apply that knowledge to the exam, we're seeing more teaching targeted directly at training students to answer the expected test questions.

To be specific, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a corresponding increase in the average scores on the big American standardised tests, such as the SAT/GRE/MCAT etc., also linked to better exam preparation. Of course, since those organisations have a vested interest in keeping their results constant, they may be fighting back with more difficult questions or other means of keeping year-on-year consistency, something the DES is (for political reason) less likely to aim for.

As to hippo's contribution, I hope you don't give any money to charities! Perhaps you could enlighten us on NLT(PLC?)'s business model and what kind of profit they're turning for misrepresenting literacy statistics? And even that's assuming that stating 'improving but not quickly enough = success that'll make our business richer-even-though-we're-a-charity' hasn't already caused your brain to explode from cognitive dissonance.

"We will never win until the oil runs out or they invent hover cars - but then they may land on us." -- lardarse rider

simoncp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by willski

Dyslexia was introduced into this debate on the premise that parents are in denial about their children's abilities. This appears to me to be groundless unless you can argue otherwise. Over to you.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm sure you'd agree some middle class children are just plain thick.

But how many parents of such kids have you actually met that will admit this?

Of all the parents I know with below average performance kids, only one admits their son is just dim; all the others have dyslexia, dyspraxia, ADD, blah, blah.

Having a stupid child is embarrassing; having one with a 'special need' isn't.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

While I was a teacher I came across dozens of middle-class parents who just could not accept that their child was of average ability, never mind below average. This is when I became aware of just how easy it is to make money from middle-class parents by doing private tuition, most of which makes little or no difference.

mr_hippo · June 2007

I don't ever remember calling the NLT a plc, can you show me where? Did I say that they are making a profit?

http://bangkokhippo.blogspot.com/

Ex-XXL weigh-in 9/10 June: Update published: Monday 11 June

Canrider · June 2007

On the dyslexia issue I don't think you/we'll ever be able to disentangle the threads. On the one hand we've gotten a lot better at recognising and diagnosing dyslexia, at the same time that improvement means that people are more aware of it and thus more likely to suggest it as a reason why little Billy isn't doing well at school.

Repeat for ADD/ADHD, etc etc.

"We will never win until the oil runs out or they invent hover cars - but then they may land on us." -- lardarse rider

Canrider · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I don't ever remember calling the NLT a plc, can you show me where? Did I say that they are making a profit?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I was editorialising. Did you plan to present any evidence in support of, really, anything you've said on this thread at any point, or should we just keep needling you?

"We will never win until the oil runs out or they invent hover cars - but then they may land on us." -- lardarse rider

peterbr · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mr_hippo

Whilst not denying that dyslexia, dyscalculia, dyspraxia and other conditions exist, I would like to know the percentage increase over the past two decades and the reasons for it. Little Johnny is a slow learner, he gets there but he is slow, does this make him a dyslexic student?

http://bangkokhippo.blogspot.com/

Ex-XXL weigh-in 9/10 June: Update published: Monday 11 June
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Mr hippo, you make a lot of sense.

It's probably for the same reason we now have 3 times as many people on sickness benefit in 2007 than in 1979. i.e. we really aren't any sicker, in fact we are healthier as we don't do dangerous things like mining, heavy industry, working with asbestos and manually intensive farm work anymore. But boy, makes the unemployment figures look good doesn't it?

This country is really shafted in the longer run if people are prepared to buy into this government approved statistical nonsense like Willski does here. While we're all congratulating each other on how well the stats are looking and handing each other meaningless gongs, other countries are genuinely moving ahead in every field from education, to manufacturing and science. We really need a wake up call and a dose of reality. I predict this will happen when Nu Labour max out the credit cards. It'll be 1978 all over again.

<hr noshade size="1">
Elephants - where were they when we were fighting the nazis? Eh? Eh?

Thick Kids

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