Rhyll CC inquest

rothbook · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> I guess most sensible people (yourself included I hope) will choose to wait and see what the outcome of this inquest is before jumping to conclusions,<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Most sensible people wouldn't tell lies about the families of the dead cyclists cretin, so why did you?

rothbook · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> and a police report from an incident investigation officer, I know which I'd trust. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

More lies. It ewasn't a police report, it was major gaffe by Adams that North Wales police later apologised for.

Why are you persistantly lying about this case Cretin?

If you trust and believe the police then I guess you support Brunstrom, or do you pick and choose your trusted sources like the lying hypocrite you are?

Howardcp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cretin
The police and courts do not think the driver is to blame. The cyclists involved do not think he is to blame. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Well, given that the police were exonerating the driver from blame and claiming that excess speed was not a factor before they had even finished gathering data at the scene, I feel that the police may well have some motivation for sticking to that story in order to cover up their own incompetence/ bias.

As to the survivor who said that the driver wasn't to blame. This may have been reported accurately, or may have been just an impression given by the selective reporting of what was said. However, as someone who survived a crash involving an incompetent, uninsured, driving-whilst-disqualified motorist who tried to overtake me whilst turning left at the same time and the for good measure did a runner, I can say that after such an event one can feel strangely elated and apt to forgive anyone just about anything. Perhaps this is a reaction to simply having survived such an event. I wonder if that cyclist feels the same way now? I know that I now feel very differently about the driver who ran me down.

(Humberside police knew who the driver was, and there were plenty of independent witnesses who said the driver was entirely to blame. However despite the motorist involved driving whilst disqualified and the number of independent witnesses Humberside police simply weren't interested in bringing charges against him).

Jaded · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cretin

Its forseeable you might lose control and leave the road, is it forseeable that a group of cyclists would be approaching just as that happened? I say not.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hmmm.

How does that square with:

"The speed limit is the absolute maximum and does not mean it is safe to drive at that speed irrespective of conditions. Driving at speeds too fast for the road and traffic conditions can be dangerous. You should always reduce your speed when
* the road layout or condition presents hazards, such as bends
* sharing the road with pedestrians and cyclists, particularly children, and motorcyclists
* weather conditions make it safer to do so
* driving at night as it is harder to see other road users."

and:

"Drive at a speed that will allow you to stop well within the distance you can see to be clear."

If drivers drove as they are meant to and not as they like, then crashes ('accidents' in your dictionary) would hardly ever happen.

Sadly most drivers either do not know this bit of the Highway Code or don't care about it. Which category are you?

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[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one

Cretin · June 2007

The very nature of black ice means it is very difficult, sometimes impossible to see. You can predict it's presence but you can't with any certainty say where exactly it will be.

I haven't visited the site of the accident, or the road itself, so I can't really say what a suitable speed for me would be on that road. It could be 30mph, 50mph, 70mph - I don't know.

Fortunately most of us have never encountered black ice. I have, on a couple of ocassions. Once early in my driving career while using the Snake Pass, in a rear wheel drive car, accelerating too quickly for the conditions out of a bend onto a straight, the back end came around and only a combination of luck and a little experience enabled me to correct it and not crash. It knocked my confidence and taught me a thing or two.

If anybody thinks that it takes a lot of speed to do damage when encountering black ice, I suggest they look on YouTube in the auto section, and search for 'black ice'. They may be surprised at how lethal it can be even at relatively low speeds.

Most drivers just don't know what to do when they start skidding. They don't understand under/over steer, lift off oversteer, brake balancing, gear selection etc. They're under no obligation to take any lessons in skid control. They're not taught anything about severe conditions in their driving lessons. There may be an entry on the theory exam, I don't know as I passed my test in the 80's.

On what I know about this case (which is limited to news reports) I can't really bring myself to have anything but pity for all concerned. I'm certainly not going to blame the driver when the police have not charged him. Hopefully the authorities will look at this and take steps to stop it happening again. On a wider scale, I hope it leads to compulsory advanced training at some point in all licence holder's careers.

Jaded · June 2007

I cannot remember the source, but I believe that in one country where skid training was introduced the crash rate increased, because drivers were more confident they could deal with the adverse conditions.

I'd certainly welcome training aimed at preventing skidding happening in the first place, not to stop it when it has started.

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[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one

Cretin · June 2007

Yes, theres similar evidence to suggest that advanced training too early into a newly qualified driver's career can result in over-confidence. I believe the IAM will not allow newly qualified drivers to take the advanced test, I think theres a waiting period - but I've looked and can't find what it is at the moment.

rothbook · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> On what I know about this case (which is limited to news reports) <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Perhaps, cretin, you could indicate which news report quoted the "offical police report" which absolved the driver that you claimed existed?

Or admit that you lied again, as you wish.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by rothbook

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> and a police report from an incident investigation officer, I know which I'd trust. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

More lies. It ewasn't a police report, it was major gaffe by Adams that North Wales police later apologised for.

Why are you persistantly lying about this case Cretin?

If you trust and believe the police then I guess you support Brunstrom, or do you pick and choose your trusted sources like the lying hypocrite you are?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This is a complex matter (which is why the inquest is going to take a month) with plenty of scope for differing views. Denouncing anyone you disagree with as a hypocrite and a liar is rude, unnecessary and does nothing to advance your case.

Jaded · June 2007

Cycling death father tells of anger

"An inquest into the deaths heard how Jonathan Harland initially said he had felt no anger towards the man but had a change of heart "over many months".

His barrister said:

"That quotation has been extensively reported in the media as if it were indicative of his state of mind today.

"He has asked me to make clear to the jury the following - that he was interviewed a couple of days after the tragedy whilst still very much in a bewildered state.

"He says 'It was accurate and true at the time. However I have felt for many months nothing but anger towards the driver who killed my son and three of my best friends'."

Hopefully now certain groups will stop using his words as indication tha the cyclists don't lay any blame on the driver.

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[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one

rothbook · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Denouncing anyone you disagree with as a hypocrite and a liar is rude, unnecessary and does nothing to advance your case. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I didn't call cretin a liar because I disagreed with him, I called him a liar because he lied.

He lied about the police statements and he lied about the feelings of the family.

Cretin's a liar, and if you've set yourself up as a moderator again patrick you might do better to attack Cretin's lies rather than my exposure of them.

And stop stalking me from thread to thread you tedious little man.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by rothbook

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Denouncing anyone you disagree with as a hypocrite and a liar is rude, unnecessary and does nothing to advance your case. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I didn't call cretin a liar because I disagreed with him, I called him a liar because he lied.

He lied about the police statements and he lied about the feelings of the family.

Cretin's a liar, and if you've set yourself up as a moderator again patrick you might do better to attack Cretin's lies rather than my exposure of them.

And stop stalking me from thread to thread you tedious little man.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm hardly stalking you from thread to thread. I live in North Wales and was cycling on the day the accident happened. I am familar with the roads, the weather and the issues and have a keen interest in the case.

You have been banned from this forum on at least six occasions for your abusive behaviour which you seem unable to control. I was rather hoping that you'd learned your lesson by now and grown up a little.

rothbook · June 2007

Let it go mate, you're not doing yourself any good at all.

Or, if you prefer, provide details of the "official police report" cretin claimed exonerated the driver. Here's a hint, there isn't one. Cretin lied about the deaths of four cyclists and you ignore this and continue your teenage girl hissy fit about forum decorum. Being called a liar after telling a lie or deliberately misrepresenting the deaths of four people, which is worse, you decide.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by rothbook

Let it go mate, you're not doing yourself any good at all.

Or, if you prefer, provide details of the "official police report" cretin claimed exonerated the driver. Here's a hint, there isn't one. Cretin lied about the deaths of four cyclists and you ignore this and continue your teenage girl hissy fit about forum decorum. Being called a liar after telling a lie or deliberately misrepresenting the deaths of four people, which is worse, you decide.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Can you not work it out from the fact that you've been banned so many times, that you are the one who is seriously out of line? Have you thought of seeking professional help for your problems?

rothbook · June 2007

On the day of the crash, the North Wales Police stated that excessive speed was not involved. This statement was both premature and misleading as they should have also considered inappropriate speed. Luckily Chief Inspector Lyn Adams' remarks were noticed by North Wales residents and an official complaint was made and an apology issued.

For the record, what was written to the Chief Constable is as follows:

---- quote

I write as Chairman of a local cycling club, Stewartry Wheelers. My
members were also out on a training ride yesterday, just like the
members of the Rhyl Cycling Club who were killed on your roads.

I am therefore extremely concerned about public statements made by your
officers yesterday, which clearly could only be justified after lengthy
and careful investigation. In particular an unnamed police spokesman is
quoted by the BBC as saying this was an 'accident', while Chief
Inspector Lyn Adams is quoted as saying 'there is no indication to
suggest that this is down to something like excessive speed'. These
police statements are bound to affect the judgement of the prosecuting
authorities, and to prejudice any prosecution that does arise.

Whilst I, of course, know no more of this incident than has been reported
by the media, prima facie it would seem that if a driver lost control on
a "gentle bend" (CI Adam's words) then either speed must have been
excessive for the prevailing conditions, or the driver must have been
grossly negligent. If, as reported, the car crossed the carriageway,
crossed a grass verge of some metres, struck a wall, rebounded from it
and crossed the verge and carriageway again, speed would seem to have
been grossly excessive. I understand that the conditions were icy, but
wonder whether North Wales Police generally consider the reported 50mph
as being an appropriate speed in icy conditions.

You might consider whether public confidence is best served by CI Adams
continuing to work on this investigation.

cuddy duck · June 2007

Let's see if I've got this right.
Denouncing some folk as liars and/or are hypocrits is a censurable no no. Tut tut.
Denouncing someone, repeatedly, as a nutter in need of psychiatric help is legit prefectorial technique?
All a bit blue meme for my liking.

There are 9 million bicycles in Beijing. But no cyclists: that's one thing we can be sure of....

CometGirl · June 2007

But back on topic....

Chaps, you might do well to take into account that the standard of proof at an inquest is lower (balance of probabilites)than at a criminal prosecution (beyond reasonable doubt). We may well see that the inquest finds that on the balance of probabilities the driver's speed and defective tyres were contributory factors in the deaths. This does NOT mean that the police / CPS were negligent by failing to charge him with offences which may not stand up to the criminal standard of proof.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cuddy duck

a nutter in need of psychiatric help <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hardly necessary now as rothbook has calmed down. [;)]

rothbook · June 2007

Perhaps a clearer picture is that the families affected by this horror certainly do not feel the forgiveness that was claimed, and the police, especially Adams, behaved in a shabby, unprofessional way. That's why Cretin's lies are so offensive, he serves as an apologist for a killer driver and invents silly "official police report" stories to back up his lies.

Regulator · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by CometGirl

But back on topic....

Chaps, you might do well to take into account that the standard of proof at an inquest is lower (balance of probabilites)than at a criminal prosecution (beyond reasonable doubt). We may well see that the inquest finds that on the balance of probabilities the driver's speed and defective tyres were contributory factors in the deaths. This does NOT mean that the police / CPS were negligent by failing to charge him with offences which may not stand up to the criminal standard of proof.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Just to put my tuppenceworth in [:D], the standard of proof is the civil standard (on the balance of probabilities) but it is usually applied 'on the sliding scale', where the more serious the matters alleged or the potential findings/outcomes, the more cogent the evidence must be.

It is also open to a coroner to criticise the police/CPS for failing to prosecute (and it wouldn't be the first time) if they were satisfied that there was sufficient evidence to do so.

(Can't remember the exact case law quote for the 'civil sliding scale' - can anyone help?)

___________________________
Bugger elephants - capabari are cuter!

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Regulator

(Can't remember the exact case law quote for the 'civil sliding scale' - can anyone help?)

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Not me - it's news to me! The practical point is that Judges are urged in training to be particularly careful if a case is one which is likely to result in an appeal, but this is a practical point rather than a legal one and is usually to do with setting out their reasons in full.

Regulator · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Regulator

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Patrick Stevens

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Regulator

(Can't remember the exact case law quote for the 'civil sliding scale' - can anyone help?)

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Not me - it's news to me! The practical point is that Judges are urged in training to be particularly careful if a case is one which is likely to result in an appeal, but this is a practical point rather than a legal one and is usually to do with setting out their reasons in full.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">


'Civil sliding scale' is applied routinely in professional regulation and is taking off in other areas.

I've found an up to date reference: R (N) v Mental Health Review Tribunal (2006) QB 468

"......the essential point that runs through the authorities is that the civil standard of proof is flexible in its application and enables proper account to be taken of the seriousness of the allegations to be proved and of the consequences of proving them..."

___________________________
Bugger elephants - capabari are cuter!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

___________________________
Bugger elephants - capabari are cuter!

Howardcp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by rothbook

On the day of the crash, the North Wales Police stated that excessive speed was not involved. This statement was both premature and misleading as they should have also considered inappropriate speed. Luckily Chief Inspector Lyn Adams' remarks were noticed by North Wales residents and an official complaint was made and an apology issued. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Could you post up the reply to the letter you quoted, or more details about any apology which was issued? I and am sure many others would love to see just how the police reacted.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Regulator

'Civil sliding scale' is applied routinely in professional regulation and is taking off in other areas.

I've found an up to date reference: R (N) v Mental Health Review Tribunal (2006) QB 468

"......the essential point that runs through the authorities is that the civil standard of proof is flexible in its application and enables proper account to be taken of the seriousness of the allegations to be proved and of the consequences of proving them..."

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's slightly different. The likes of the Solicitors Disciplinary Tribunal will happily come to a conclusion that a solicitor has been guilty of delay, but will be much more careful over concluding that he's guilty of dishonestly raiding the client account.

The civil burden of proof in litigation is the same throughout - the balance of probabilities.

Cretin · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cuddy duck

Let's see if I've got this right.
Denouncing some folk as liars and/or are hypocrits is a censurable no no. Tut tut.
Denouncing someone, repeatedly, as a nutter in need of psychiatric help is legit prefectorial technique?
All a bit blue meme for my liking.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I find a better solution is just to completely ignore them, and watch them hopelessly take comments out of context and fail to understand police procedure. Its actually quite funny to think of them frothing over their keyboard with manufactured indignation at things which never happened.

rothbook · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> watch them hopelessly take comments out of context <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You'll be able to source the "official police report" that you claimed exonerated the driver then?

Or admit you're a cowardly liar exploiting four deaths to defend a killer driver.

Which is it?

mjones · June 2007

Without wanting to get dragged into the specifics of this particular case, what strikes me is how the law enforcement/ judicial processes involved in road accidents can sometimes get in the way of objective accident investigation. There is a big difference between saying "There is no evidence that the driver committed an offence" and saying "there is no evidence that the driver was responsible". The law can't cover every conceivable circumstance, so it isn't possible to outlaw every act that might cause an accident.

A driver may have done nothing that could be regarded as a criminal offence, or indeed nothing that would reasonably considered to be taking an undue risk, yet the accident has still happened, so must have a cause, and that cause is almost certainly going to be down to something the driver did differently from all the other drivers that didn't crash.

In an industrial situation, or indeed on the railways or airlines, if there is an accident then the intention is to understand fully what happened and why, so that it can be avoided in the future. Responsibility doesn't automatically mean someone has committed a criminal offence; conversely the fact that no-one my be charged with an offence doesn't mean no-one was responsible.

rothbook · June 2007

Before the car had even been examined and the criminal offence as to its roadworthiness ascertained, the copper exonerated the driver.

It's an offence to fail to maintain a vehicle, if one wishes to prove
dangerous, careless driving or endangering other road users then one
would have to prove that the driver knew of the defects before the
journey commenced, or, should have been aware of those defects because
they were of such a nature that he/she could not be unaware of them.
When warning people about driving after they have been PG9'd traffic
officers routinly inform them they will be charged with dangerous
driving if the vehicle is used without being repaired and MOT'd.

That chap who hired dodgy sunbeds and burned a woman went to prison.

Landlords who don't maintain their gas boilers and whose tenants
suffocate go to prison.

A man drives at high speed on an icy road with sh/tty tyres on his car
and he gets fined less than the cost of the bikes belonging to the four
people he killed.

Way to go CI Adam, you utter cretin.

Unknown · June 2007

Regardless of what the police said or thought, any prosecuting decisions (as the coroner made clear yesterday) were made by the CPS and not the police.

davidmam · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jaded

I cannot remember the source, but I believe that in one country where skid training was introduced the crash rate increased, because drivers were more confident they could deal with the adverse conditions.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It was Norway. People drove closer to what they perceived to be the edge of their abilities in adverse conditions if they had been trained in them.

..d

Fat bloke on a bike

Rhyll CC inquest

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