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Sean Kelly

Billy WhizzcpBilly Whizzcp Posts: 284
edited June 2007 in Pro race
Has Sean Kelly (whom I admire for his huge cycling knowledge & insight, and fnd very easy to listen to btw) ever been suspected /linked to anything dodgy?

I don't think I've ever heard him express a particular opinion on anyone caught or suspected of cheating. His comment when Floyd Landis got off his bike after stage 17 was a classic "he hardly even looks tired . . . "
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  • simmerssimmers Posts: 92
    Phil Liggett tends to gloss over doping issues too, or at least not be overtly critical. Certainly never critical of Lance Armstrong. His recent article in C+ bemoaned how Jan Ullrich, one of the sport's biggest stars, was 'forced' in to retirement as a result of 'unfounded allegations'. I'd rather he criticised one of the sport's biggest stars for getting involved in some very dodgy practices, even if he never got caught doping...
  • Willy Voet says something about him in his book. Apart from that, dunno.

    tea is good
  • WittgensteinWittgenstein Posts: 158
    He failed at least one dope test, if I remember rightly.
    But back then, a failed dope test amounted to nothing more than a fine and a slapped wrist.
    People knew riders doped, but didn't go on about it. Not like todays neurotic hysteria.
  • BonusBonus Posts: 316
    Maybe it's just a case of "not biting the hand that feeds you" ???
  • dbgdbg Posts: 846
    Fer gawds sake they were all on something in those days, accept it, get over it or follow a different sport.
  • top_bhoytop_bhoy Posts: 1,424
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by dbg</i>

    Fer gawds sake they were all on something in those days, accept it, get over it or follow a different sport.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    No change then from today, eh?

    This is my new bike:
    http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p66/ ... ure001.jpg
    http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p66/ ... ure002.jpg
    http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p66/ ... ure003.jpg
  • dbgdbg Posts: 846
    nope
  • rashrash Posts: 12
    Yes, think it was back in 85/86, I think his B sample was clean so no punishment.

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Wittgenstein</i>

    He failed at least one dope test, if I remember rightly.
    But back then, a failed dope test amounted to nothing more than a fine and a slapped wrist.
    People knew riders doped, but didn't go on about it. Not like todays neurotic hysteria.




    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
  • Philip DavisPhilip Davis Posts: 965
    If you do a search through here there was a thread about a long interview with Kelly. He does talk in some detail about doping in it, no suggestion he glosses over the subject at all.

    There were whispers about it in his day as with all successful riders. But his background (rural farming GAA) would be very puritanical about such things in those days. If he was involved, it would have been in his later pro career - he'd already proven he was a top rider before then in his amateur days. Also remember that he rode full intense seasons, he didn't skip events for one reason or another which the more dedicated dopers do to avoid scrutiny.

    I hate to advocate drugs, violence or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.' Hunter S. Thompson

    I hate to advocate drugs, violence or insanity to anyone, but they\'ve always worked for me.\' Hunter S. Thompson
  • SalsicciaSalsiccia Posts: 405
    I think Maurice Garin's Tour win in 1903 was slightly dodgy. Perhaps he should be stripped of his title...

    How far are we going to go back? When is the hand-wringing going to stop? Revisionism will help no-one. If Kelly took something 20 years ago, then he was only doing what everyone else did at the time. If someone got caught under the rules at the time, so be it. If not, then leave it be. That was then, this is now.

    It's not as if this is just an issue for Cycling, anyway. Lot's of sports have this issue, and those that don't admit to it just ignore it. They don't even test for EPO in English football, and wouldn't a œ1billion wage bill lead players to look for every advantage, such as an undetectable agent that helps them perform skilfully for a full 90 minutes?

    What we are looking at is a societal problem. In all areas of life people look for an edge, legal or not. Why should Cycling, or any well-paid, pressurised sport be any different?
    I was only joking when I said
    by rights you should be bludgeoned in your bed
  • I read the first two paragraphs, and thought "Hear, hear." I read the next two, and thought "Get real".

    The reason that performance enhancing drugs are a big issue in cycling is the same reason that it's a big issue in athletics, biathalon, weightlifting, swimming, etc, but not such a big issue in football, snooker, cricket, motor racing. Cycling is a sport where (tactics withstanding) the difference between success and failure is physical strength, power, endurance or speed. Performance enhancing drugs can make a huge difference to a cyclist's performance. They do not make the same amount of difference to skill based sports.

    I'm not saying that no professional sportsmen and women in skill based sports don't dope, but it's clearly not going to be such a problem as physical sports, which cycling is. Most of the positive dope tests in football, for instance, have been for "recreational" drugs, not performance enhancing ones.

    Cars don't kill people.
    Motorists do.

    Cars don\'t kill people.
    Motorists do.
  • BirilloBirillo Posts: 417
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">They do not make the same amount of difference to skill based sports.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    How many times have we heard this before? How many times do we have to remind such innocents that a drug such as EPO allows more extensive training, quicker recovery, and better endurance in the second half of a football match? Google Juventus and see what a difference EPO makes.
  • SalsicciaSalsiccia Posts: 405
    Psychiatricblues: Do you not think that a footballer who can run as fast after 90 minutes as they could after 5 is not at an advantage? Or a footballer who can recover quicker from running half way down the pitch? With the amount at stake in top-flight football, I would be very surprised if players didn't seek to artifically improve performance. Maybe they don't do EPO, but some substances may improve concentration or coordination, and it is not beyond the realms of reality to imagine footballers on œ100,000 a week might look for something to help them maintain that rate of earning. Also, I might have got this wrong, but didn't Italian football dabble in stuff like Creatine and only stop when players were suffering adverse affects?

    I think we're being very naive if we think only endurance sports have an issue with performance-enhancing substances. Baseball is hardly an endurance sport, and it is up to it's eyes in steroid abuse. Another example: wouldn't a prop or lock forward in rugby gain an advantage if he took HGH?
    I was only joking when I said
    by rights you should be bludgeoned in your bed
  • ceedeecpceedeecp Posts: 111
    I think he was suspected of boring my tits off me.[:D]
  • SalsicciaSalsiccia Posts: 405
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by ceedee</i>

    I think he was suspected of boring my tits off me.[:D]
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    Who: me or Sean Kelly? Either way, I take offence at that remark[:o)]
    I was only joking when I said
    by rights you should be bludgeoned in your bed
  • ceedeecpceedeecp Posts: 111
    I think he was suspected of boring my tits off me.[:D]


    Who: me or Sean Kelly? Either way, I take offence at that remark[:o)]

    More Sean Kelly than you, but im sorry I can't do with him.
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by rash</i>

    Yes, think it was back in 85/86, I think his B sample was clean so no punishment.

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Wittgenstein</i>

    He failed at least one dope test, if I remember rightly.
    But back then, a failed dope test amounted to nothing more than a fine and a slapped wrist.
    People knew riders doped, but didn't go on about it. Not like todays neurotic hysteria.




    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    it was 1984 Paris Brussels or Blois-Chaville classic that Kelly was +. This is legal fact. Breaking the Chain puts a different complexion on things. Kelly did not accept he was +.

    ________Our behaviour is a function of our experience.
  • ut_o_cyklaut_o_cykla Posts: 58
    For what its worth - Can't help but agree with the general tone of Salsiccia's post. I think pro sportsmen/women will always look for an edge. Some will knowingly cheat, others will just dabble. just look how people bend rules when working piece time (or used to). Footballers no longer collapse at the end of 90+30 minutes with visible cramp. Top teams play several top matches every week. F1 drivers need to be fit and alert, as do pro cricket players. Ice hockey is riddled with blokes who turn into agresive bulky hulks in a few months. Cheating's not right but it happens in all sports. Perhaps the edge is bigger in endurance sports but its still cheating. Until pro sport/society in general cleans up its act cycling is unlikely to succeed.

    pousse moi s'il vous plait
    pousse moi s\'il vous plait
  • Richie GRichie G Posts: 283
    Hi all

    Didn't think i'd ever join in one of these debates, as i've only been following pro cycling for a couple of years. However, i'm a big cricket fan and am disgusted by the recent doping scandal involving Shoaib Ahktar and Mohammed Asif. Basically, the ICC bottled it and let the pakistani cricket board hear the appeal- both are still eligable to play international cricket! If they were cyclists they'd be hung out to dry- and rightly so. Fast bowling is a very demanding occupation- added to the ever more crowded fixture list i would suggest chemical assistance could have great bearing on performance. I can't help but feel cycling is at least trying to get it's house in order- whereas the 'skill-based' sports are happy to turn a blind eye.
  • Philip DavisPhilip Davis Posts: 965
    The distinction between skill and endurance sports is nonsense. Beta blockers were rampant in Snooker until they started testing for them systematically. There has been a huge scandal running for several years now in the States about the use of steriods in baseball. Drug testing is acknowledged as something of a joke in soccer, a pro can go a career with just one or two tests. Tony Cascarino (who played in France as well as Britain) has written about how it was a common joke in the french league about Marseilles players about what drugs they were on (he was given stimulents before a match). Arsene Wenger has stated publically that players he bought from Italy were on EPO before they arrived in Arsenal (it doesn't take a detective to work out what very famous player he was specifically referring to). The US athletics organisation covered up for years the fact that they had positive drug tests for their top sprint and middle distance athletes in the 1980's. Cycling is one of the few sport that is making strides at facing up to the issue.

    I hate to advocate drugs, violence or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.' Hunter S. Thompson

    I hate to advocate drugs, violence or insanity to anyone, but they\'ve always worked for me.\' Hunter S. Thompson
  • mmcpmmcp Posts: 79
    You also have to ask why Arsene Wenger is testing his players in the first place? Much easier to control doping if you have a training ground and medical centre that can be locked up - driving the stuff around in a camper van or in the boot of the team car, you are bound to get caught (though motorbikes with refrigerated paniers are now the vector of choice.
  • Players are tested as part of a medical when joining a club and then as part of keeping them healthy. There is nothing sinister in it.

    TdG
  • Are you seriously suggesting that doping doesn't go on in football ? Look at the money involved in the sport ! Juventus had an EPO program for their players .

    http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/roads4bikes/
  • HoullierHoullier Posts: 1,253
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Philip Davis</i>

    The distinction between skill and endurance sports is nonsense. Beta blockers were rampant in Snooker until they started testing for them systematically. There has been a huge scandal running for several years now in the States about the use of steriods in baseball. Drug testing is acknowledged as something of a joke in soccer, a pro can go a career with just one or two tests. Tony Cascarino (who played in France as well as Britain) has written about how it was a common joke in the french league about Marseilles players about what drugs they were on (he was given stimulents before a match). Arsene Wenger has stated publically that players he bought from Italy were on EPO before they arrived in Arsenal (it doesn't take a detective to work out what very famous player he was specifically referring to). The US athletics organisation covered up for years the fact that they had positive drug tests for their top sprint and middle distance athletes in the 1980's. Cycling is one of the few sport that is making strides at facing up to the issue.

    I hate to advocate drugs, violence or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.' Hunter S. Thompson
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    ..and who owned the Marseilles team?

    Bernard Tapei!

    ---\*/
    ----?
    ----/>'
    --(+)(+)
    You'll never ride alone
    ---\*/
    ----?
    ----/>\'
    --(+)(+)
    You\'ll never ride alone
  • K BlackwellK Blackwell Posts: 1,539
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Philip Davis</i>

    The distinction between skill and endurance sports is nonsense. Beta blockers were rampant in Snooker until they started testing for them systematically. There has been a huge scandal running for several years now in the States about the use of steriods in baseball. Drug testing is acknowledged as something of a joke in soccer, a pro can go a career with just one or two tests. Tony Cascarino (who played in France as well as Britain) has written about how it was a common joke in the french league about Marseilles players about what drugs they were on (he was given stimulents before a match). Arsene Wenger has stated publically that players he bought from Italy were on EPO before they arrived in Arsenal (it doesn't take a detective to work out what very famous player he was specifically referring to). The US athletics organisation covered up for years the fact that they had positive drug tests for their top sprint and middle distance athletes in the 1980's. Cycling is one of the few sport that is making strides at facing up to the issue.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Good post IMO.

    Some of the European distance athletes have also said they can'[t compete with teh African runners due to EPO.

    Then I here the self satisfied comments of Blatter stating that most of the positives in football are recreational drugs.

    Read about a poll in Italy that thought that doping was just as prevalent in football, just that nobody there has the balls to pursue it. Some of the players get paid more than the budgets of some professional teams.

    Not much wonder that Armstrong was about the only one with the financial wherewithal to pursure libel actions.

    Sport in general is awash with drugs, but it's clear, particularly in the UK, that cycling is an easy target.

    It's not an excuse to what has gone on in cycling, but appears that cycling's an easy target.
  • If you look at Wenger's supposed EPO Italian signings it might be worth remembering that the two that I'm thinking of had a particularly bad time in Italy only to turn into superstars at Arsenal.

    The reason why players tend to suffer from cramp less at the end of games is because, unlike even ten years ago, they're not eating pasties ten minutes before kick off and then drinking ten pints immediately afterwards.

    Where I live and the people I know, I'm reasonably close to top pro footballers and I know the players who like popping to the toilets once every fifteen minutes at a party but I have never once, ever heard even rumours about doping of London based/from London players.


    The other thing I hear about the media being scared of biting the hand that feeds them is utter rubbish because the sports writers would wet themselves if anything like this ever came out.
  • declanodeclano Posts: 2
    Kelly tested positive twice in his career I believe.

    1984 paris-brussels for an over the counter stimulant with the trade name Stimul. Voets has alleged that this is the stimulant a mechanic was taking to stay awake on an overnight drive and the mechanics urine was used in dope control.

    Then later in his Kas days, in a spanish race, Kelly tested positive for codeine. This was defended as an ingredient in a medication he was talkig for a cough / chest infection.

    declan
  • K BlackwellK Blackwell Posts: 1,539
    Well, my previous comments on Blatter may have been unfair because apparently he's waded into the Spanish regarding Puerto. When he's asked for details on the subject of whether football's involved the Spanish won't divulge the information. Can't remember where I saw it.

    As for Kelly, he's unlikely to say too much. Was he guilty? Only he knows. What he was; an all time great. Definitely the greatest ever rider to come out of these Islands.
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by declano</i>

    Kelly
    declan
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    No , Kelly did not test positive twice-only once in 1984. The comment on his KAS days is a lie and should be removed from this thread and is probably illegal and he should be made aware of this comment on here IMO.

    ________Our behaviour is a function of our experience.
  • monty_dogcpmonty_dogcp Posts: 382
    No smoke without fire? Kelly rode in the same teams are Maertens and Michel Pollentier - both notoriuous and of course we can't forget the PDM debacle where the whole team was wiped-out by a dodgy 'saline drip'. In soccer bizzarely, only the team doctors are allowed to administer drugs tests, to be witnessed by the dope testers. I expect the reason for certain football managers administering tests is to make sure they were taking enough!
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