fundamentalists try to influence politics

Unknown · June 2007

Perhaps if we paid a little less attention to religious nutters and had proper sex education for every child in this country we might actually reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies and need to have less abortions ?
We should also teach our children about all religions in schools . Faith schools should be abolished .

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/roads4bikes/

andyoxon · June 2007

From where I'm standing, the more people ridicule, and stereotype to make a point - the more it detracts from their argument and weakens it...

andy

--- Beware of 'all things being equal' - because very often they are not. ---

Joe Sacco · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

Very few women embark on the serious step that abortion represents without being absolutely torn apart by guilt, and most take the regrettable step following serious and protracted consideration, which is as it should be.

No one, especially males, should underestimate or trivialize the issues involved for the women facing abortion.

please look up to the stars.. ***
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Totally agree. Hasn't answered my question though.

Russell_john · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by andyoxon

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Russell_john

.. perhaps its more the church of the holy kiddie-fiddler worried about a diminishing congregation? Churches(ANY religion) and politics should be kept about as far away from eachother as is possible.

Mercifully the church in this united kingdom is actually pretty spinlesss in more ways than one and so his words will I hope have little long term effect. Many people go through extraordinary levels of anguish in deciding to have an abortion. To suffer the additional moralizings of a gob****e who will never know what it is like to be a parent (assuming he keeps his orbs and septre to himself) and will never have more than a fleeting understanding of what it actually means to have an abortion, is just wrong.

Nice to see the RC 'church' returning to what it does best: emotional blackmail wrapped guised as the moral 'right'.

Perhaps they can get their own putrid house in order before they come preaching to the rest of us about morality.

are they wibbin me Centurwion?
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I'm not RC, and think this kind of warning by the Rc church is in danger of seeming intolerant, and lacking in compassion - because for many who've had, or are contemplating having an abortion I sure it is or can be a time of great anguish. The consequences of having an abortion are irreversible and go against maternal instincts. But, 'the church should stay out of politics' seems simply to be a line used against a group of voters with which someone disagrees. Churchs, Christians etc are entitled to speak up on what they feel important - and with abortion there is arguably a strong element of basic human rights.

--- Beware of 'all things being equal' - because very often they are not. ---
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.. we are all entitled to opinions that's true, but what I see as not being acceptable is the idea is the idea of a conflict of interest:

A politician is obliged to do the bidding of the people who voted for them there is a distinction between self and duty. In effect the RC church is demanding that politicians listen to their inner 'self' over their elected 'duty' The behaviour of this church is in effect undemocratic.

When the RC church does something positive to address the issues of HIV in africa when it does something real to acknowledge the kiddie-fiddling activities of its priests then go to the politicaians of scotland or anywhere else come to that and tell them what to do. Until then, theire collective opinions and 'values' are pretty worthless.

are they wibbin me Centurwion?

papercorn2000 · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by andyoxon

From where I'm standing, the more people ridicule, and stereotype to make a point - the more it detracts from their argument and weakens it...

andy

--- Beware of 'all things being equal' - because very often they are not. ---
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OK, so try answering the questions raised.

God told me to skin you alive.
http://www.ekroadclub.co.uk/

andyoxon · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by papercorn2000

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by andyoxon

From where I'm standing, the more people ridicule, and stereotype to make a point - the more it detracts from their argument and weakens it...

andy

--- Beware of 'all things being equal' - because very often they are not. ---
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

OK, so try answering the questions raised.

God told me to skin you alive.
http://www.ekroadclub.co.uk/
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pc2000, I haven't really any comment to make on RC schools in Scotland, sorry. Faith schools have been discussed at some length in the past (probably fallen off the archive now). The principal context of this thread is abortion. But our two daughters go to a CofE school, with which we (and they) are more than happy; as are parents who aren't members of any church AFAIA. So 'if it ain't broke...' Actually I see it in a more positive light than this, but no doubt some feel the system is 'broke'.

Andy

--- Beware of 'all things being equal' - because very often they are not. ---

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by papercorn2000

They are an anachronism in this day and age. The state provides sufficient (?) non-denominational schools. Why should one religion be singled out to receive state schooling according to their own rules?

If a school refused to employ individuals on account of their colour or some type of infirmity, the people would be up in arms. Butit's OK to bar people from working in state funded schools on account of which religion (which may have nothing to do with their subject) they profess. As it is, in Scotland, we have the Proddy schools and the Tims schools. And we wonder why there is so much internecine hatred and bigotry in Scotland!

God told me to skin you alive.
http://www.ekroadclub.co.uk/
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The 1918 Education Act brought Scottish Roman Catholic Schools into state education system. Up until that time Catholics had paid for their own schools. Many of the school buildings are still in use today. As I indicated in a previous post, if parents did not want them they could send their children to their local non-denominational school - as is their right. With so many RC schools in existence - due to parents choosing to send their kids to the school - it would appear that not everyone would agree with you that they are an anachronism.

Also, there are many non-catholics working in Catholic schools, so people are not barred on the basis of not being Catholics. I gather that some posts (like Head) require a RC.

It is simplistic to blame separate schools for religious intolerance. If this were the reason then we would have no sex discrimination or racial discrimination as boys and girls generally go to the same schools.

I attended a denominational school and I think I benfitted from it in lots of ways. The school had a good ethos and in no way did it teach intolerance, hatred or bigotry.

_____________________________________________________________________
Be nice to grumpy old men (or else)

andyoxon · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Joe Sacco

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

i don't really think that you can be considered to be properly and fully human until you begin to interact with others who are already in the world - following birth. So the idea that abortion equates to murder as some of the more lunatic religos suggest is 'off the wall'.

i've no objection to abortion legislation being reformed to take into account medical and technological developments (which can enable the foetus to survive independently), but ultimately, the decision must remain with the mothers - as 'a womans right to choose', not with some oppressive pointy hatted medieval purveyor of the supernatural and false consciousness who don't occupy the real world.

please look up to the stars.. ***
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But when does a foetus become more like a baby? Can the mother decide she doesn't want the child when it is 6 months old and have it killed (think I know your answer!) so why can she decide when it is a bit younger?
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I think Joe makes an important point.

This is what Evan Harris (Medic) says on abortion time limits...

Harris on foetal viability and abortion time limits; Webb on prevention of unwanted pregnancies
http://www.libdems.org.uk/health/parlia ... ml?id=4831
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">....However, at the point at which the foetus is capable of living independently of the woman, it gains a moral status that requires us to give consideration to its interests.

"That may be a practical choice, but I think that it is the basis of the current limit. As someone who generally supports the existing laws, I am happy to defend my support on the ground of foetal viability, but we need to decide what we mean by viability."

Dr Harris continued, "Do we mean that the foetus is capable simply of being born alive, or surviving for a reasonable length of time or surviving through childhood with no serious disability? Can we make a general statement about the limit of foetal viability, or will we have to talk about specific cases? For example, there may be some foetuses for whom a higher limit will apply if they are small for their date because of some developmental delay or if they are part of a multiple pregnancy, which usually goes along with a reduction in size. Gender will also have an impact, and we will need to discuss all of those questions. .......<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

There are apparently few very late abortions. I do have a lot of difficulty with a, say 15 week, old foetus being aborted, on the basis that it is not 'viable' or 'independent', and (possibly) unwanted - putting the mothers 'psychological well being at risk', when it would more than likely be born as a child at around the normal time. I wouldn't want to, and don't (I hope) trivialise any woman's situation at all, but being Male doesn't mean that one can't have strong feelings on the issues at hand.

Andy

--- Beware of 'all things being equal' - because very often they are not. ---

papercorn2000 · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by killiekosmos

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by papercorn2000

They are an anachronism in this day and age. The state provides sufficient (?) non-denominational schools. Why should one religion be singled out to receive state schooling according to their own rules?

If a school refused to employ individuals on account of their colour or some type of infirmity, the people would be up in arms. Butit's OK to bar people from working in state funded schools on account of which religion (which may have nothing to do with their subject) they profess. As it is, in Scotland, we have the Proddy schools and the Tims schools. And we wonder why there is so much internecine hatred and bigotry in Scotland!

God told me to skin you alive.
http://www.ekroadclub.co.uk/
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The 1918 Education Act brought Scottish Roman Catholic Schools into state education system. Up until that time Catholics had paid for their own schools. Many of the school buildings are still in use today. As I indicated in a previous post, if parents did not want them they could send their children to their local non-denominational school - as is their right. With so many RC schools in existence - due to parents choosing to send their kids to the school - it would appear that not everyone would agree with you that they are an anachronism.

Also, there are many non-catholics working in Catholic schools, so people are not barred on the basis of not being Catholics. I gather that some posts (like Head) require a RC.

It is simplistic to blame separate schools for religious intolerance. If this were the reason then we would have no sex discrimination or racial discrimination as boys and girls generally go to the same schools.

I attended a denominational school and I think I benfitted from it in lots of ways. The school had a good ethos and in no way did it teach intolerance, hatred or bigotry.

_____________________________________________________________________
Be nice to grumpy old men (or else)
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Blaming them exclusively would be far too simplistic but in Southern Scotland, the Them and Us, separate education does nothing to foster familiarity and tolerance between the two sides.

You said "Many of the school buildings are still in use today" not for long! In S. Lanarkshire, all of the secondary schools are being rebuilt at the expense of the taxpayer (and incidentally to release lots of land that the council can sell for building!)

However, as andyoxon said, this isn't really a thread about denominational schools, I have somwhat hi-jacked it!

God told me to skin you alive.
http://www.ekroadclub.co.uk/

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by andyoxon

...So 'if it ain't broke...' Actually I see it in a more positive light than this, but no doubt some feel the system is 'broke'.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Any supposedly educational establishment in which unformed intellects are indoctrinated into irrational susperstition is certainly morally broke.

So you voted, and now you've got a government. I just hope YOU like it.

andyoxon · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NickM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by andyoxon

...So 'if it ain't broke...' Actually I see it in a more positive light than this, but no doubt some feel the system is 'broke'.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Any supposedly educational establishment in which unformed intellects are indoctrinated into irrational susperstition is certainly morally broke.

So you voted, and now you've got a government. I just hope YOU like it.
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Nick, I even left the 'door open'... "but no doubt some feel the system is 'broke'." and you still couldn't resist. [;)]

Andy

--- Beware of 'all things being equal' - because very often they are not. ---

fundamentalists try to influence politics

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