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fundamentalists try to influence politics

maybrickmaybrick Posts: 339
edited June 2007 in Campaign
what can we do about these maniacs who want to push this country back to the dark ages?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6706743.stm

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  • papercorn2000papercorn2000 Posts: 4,517
    On one hand, why should we listen to a bunch of virgins dressed in women's clothes who bang on about bronze-age myths? On the other hand they are supposedly "community leaders", if they don't "lead" what's their purpose?

    I'm more concerned with the fact that they have a voice in whether or not I am allowed to work in a sizerable minority of Scottish state schools despite my subjects having censored -all to do with their mumbo-jumbo and their church contributing next to naff-all to the running costs of said schools.

    God told me to skin you alive.
    http://www.ekroadclub.co.uk/
    God told me to skin you alive.
    http://www.ekroadclub.co.uk/
  • ankev1ankev1 Posts: 3,686
    It's a bit of a non-issue though isn't it? I mean, it's not as if any politicians are going to let themselves be influenced by what religious figures say and it's a bit drippy when they start using words like "threatened". Pathetic really. With ref to the title of the post, it would appear that if we're looking for serious fundamentalists who actually have unfortunate influence as opposed to a cardinal preaching a sermon, we'll have to take a peep at another religion.
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by ankev1</i>

    It's a bit of a non-issue though isn't it? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I don't know - I can't recall any other instance of a religious leader in this country saying, in effect, "If you don't vote the way we want you to vote on certain issues, then you run the risk of being kicked out of our church." It's the sort of thing that they've always been careful to avoid in the past.
  • CanriderCanrider Posts: 2,253
    They're borrowing the idea from the States, circa last presidential election, with John Kerry being issued a similar threat.

    "We will never win until the oil runs out or they invent hover cars - but then they may land on us." -- lardarse rider
    "We will never win until the oil runs out or they invent hover cars - but then they may land on us." -- lardarse rider
  • andyoxonandyoxon Posts: 2,205
    Well it seems like the 40th anniversary of the '67 Act, is a vehicle to stamp RC church authority on it's members...and a lobby of parliament at the same time.

    Many people including David Steel think the 67 act needs 'revision'. In the UK (2004) there were 185 000 abortions - that's approx 500 each day. There were ~22 000 abortions after 13 weeks (foetus fully formed, if not developed, at 12 wks), ~52 000 between 10-13 weeks. The scale of it all is very concerning really - I'd say.

    http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsand ... DH_4116461

    Andy




    --- Beware of 'all things being equal' - because very often they are not. ---
    --- Beware of \'all things being equal\' - because very often they are not. ---
  • CanriderCanrider Posts: 2,253
    I love it when men talk about abortion timing as if women are some kind of automobile.

    Andy, basic biology dictates a delay of up to 4 weeks before you even guess you might be pregnant. If you're a woman who has irregular periods, or are simply too busy to notice, it can easily go 2-3 months before you're aware something's up. Now add making the decision after you find out you're pregnant and the time to book an appointment and it's not in the slightest bit surprising that abortions are performed after your (as arbitrary as any other limit) 13 week 'concerning' limit. [V]

    "We will never win until the oil runs out or they invent hover cars - but then they may land on us." -- lardarse rider
    "We will never win until the oil runs out or they invent hover cars - but then they may land on us." -- lardarse rider
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Canrider</i>

    They're borrowing the idea from the States, circa last presidential election, with John Kerry being issued a similar threat.

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Isn't it a bit more polarised in the States, with the RCs and Jews being predominantly Democrats while the non RC Christians are Republicans?

    In the UK, the religions are fairly evenly spread among the parties.
  • CanriderCanrider Posts: 2,253
    TBH, beyond the Conservative Christians, I've not paid much attention. It probably cross-cuts on multiple levels, ie if you're a wealthy urban New Englander from a nominally Irish Catholic background or a poor Catholic Mexican-American immigrant in Texas, both may vote Democrat but for very different reasons that have little to do with their common religious affiliation..

    "We will never win until the oil runs out or they invent hover cars - but then they may land on us." -- lardarse rider
    "We will never win until the oil runs out or they invent hover cars - but then they may land on us." -- lardarse rider
  • andyoxonandyoxon Posts: 2,205
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Canrider</i>

    I love it when men talk about abortion timing as if women are some kind of automobile.

    Andy, basic biology dictates a delay of up to 4 weeks before you even guess you might be pregnant. If you're a woman who has irregular periods, or are simply too busy to notice, it can easily go 2-3 months before you're aware something's up. Now add making the decision after you find out you're pregnant and the time to book an appointment and it's not in the slightest bit surprising that abortions are performed after your (as arbitrary as any other limit) 13 week 'concerning' limit. [V]

    "We will never win until the oil runs out or they invent hover cars - but then they may land on us." -- lardarse rider
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    canrider... not my 'limit'...

    "88% of abortions were carried out at <font color="red">under 13 weeks gestation</font id="red">; 60% were at under 10 weeks" http://www.dh.gov.uk

    The 24 week abortion limit - certainly seems 'arbitrary' now and in need of reassessment...

    Andy






    --- Beware of 'all things being equal' - because very often they are not. ---
    --- Beware of \'all things being equal\' - because very often they are not. ---
  • CanriderCanrider Posts: 2,253
    Le sigh. Did you or did you not say
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">~52 000 between 10-13 weeks. The scale of it all is very concerning really - I'd say.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">?
    Nowhere in there did you mention 24 weeks, but you specifically referred to abortions after 10 weeks and after 13 weeks.

    "We will never win until the oil runs out or they invent hover cars - but then they may land on us." -- lardarse rider
    "We will never win until the oil runs out or they invent hover cars - but then they may land on us." -- lardarse rider
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by ankev1</i>

    ...I mean, it's not as if any politicians are going to let themselves be influenced by what religious figures say...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">You reckon T.Blair hasn't been influenced by C.Blair?

    It's not as though representatives of organised religions have a very good record on child care, is it? Which is worse: being an aborted foetus, or the victim of some cassock-clad pervert?

    <font size="1">So you voted, and now you've got a government. I just hope YOU like it.</font id="size1">
  • papercorn2000papercorn2000 Posts: 4,517
    Or the dozenth unwanted child 'cos the cross-dressing virgin says we can't use condoms!

    God told me to skin you alive.
    http://www.ekroadclub.co.uk/
    God told me to skin you alive.
    http://www.ekroadclub.co.uk/
  • ankev1ankev1 Posts: 3,686
    Hang on a minute! I wasn't supporting the cardinal (although is support his right to air his views).. As it happens I'm not against abortion. What I was getting at was the implicit idea in the title that these sort of people pose some sort of serious threat to British society. The churches enjoy relatively little influence today.
  • QuickDrawQuickDraw Posts: 64
    Am I missing something here? A Roman Catholic Cardinal has come out against abortion and went a bit further to suggest that supporting it is inconsistent with being a catholic. How does this make the news?

    Breaking News: Vatican officials confirm Pope Benedict IS a catholic.
  • Joe SaccoJoe Sacco Posts: 4,907
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Canrider</i>

    Le sigh. Did you or did you not say
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">~52 000 between 10-13 weeks. The scale of it all is very concerning really - I'd say.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">?
    Nowhere in there did you mention 24 weeks, but you specifically referred to abortions after 10 weeks and after 13 weeks.

    "We will never win until the oil runs out or they invent hover cars - but then they may land on us." -- lardarse rider
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I read the concerning bit being the number of 52,000 rather than the period. The period is irrelevant. What difference does it make to an unborn baby whether they are killed at 13 weeks or 30 weeks?
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Joe Sacco</i>
    The period is irrelevant. What difference does it make to an unborn baby whether they are killed at 13 weeks or 30 weeks?
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    They are considerably more sentient at 30 weeks than at 13 weeks. While I am in favour of abortion, some of the details of procedures for late abortions make my stomach churn.
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by ankev1</i>

    ...The churches enjoy relatively little influence today.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Well, Dubya invaded Iraq because god told him to. His chum Blair is avowedly christian, and married a Catholic, so kowtows to her demands as far as the indoctrination of their children is concerned - and if he isn't influenced by her when making social policy decisions, my name's Cormac Murphy O'Connor. Iqbal Sacranie of the "Muslim Council of Britain" clearly <i>expects</i> to influence government policy, and as far as I can see isn't told to go and swivel; they have given the bleeder a knighthood, after all.

    No, organised religions should not have any influence with our rulers; but it seems clear to me that they do, and that our rulers are far from free of the god delusion themselves.
  • andyoxonandyoxon Posts: 2,205
    This is a large R.Catholic church element to this news...but it has wide implications IMO. Personally I do see the need for some abortions, but I'm not in favour of simply maintaining the status quo - with abortion effectively on demand on a grand scale.

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Ann Furedi, chief executive of the British Pregnancy Advisory Service, said: "Abortion is a safe, legal and medically legitimate procedure, essential in safeguarding women's reproductive health.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    But as I understand it, the most often taken route to abortion is via the 'psychological welfare' route, of having to go through with an unplanned pregnancy... particularly for those of the 18-24 yr age group (according to the stats). Yes I'm male, but a parent too, and I personally find difficulty with the embryo/foetus being afforded virtually no-protection...

    A 12 week old foetus, for instance... http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... s/9572.htm

    * Weeks 10 to 13 (8th to 11th week of development)
    o The fetus reaches a length of 8 cm (3.2 inches).
    o The head comprises nearly half of the fetus' size.
    o The face is well formed
    ...
    o Tooth buds, which will form the baby teeth, appear.
    o The limbs are long and thin.
    o The fetus can make a fist with its fingers.
    o Genitals appear well differentiated.
    (wiki)

    After 12 wks the risk of miscarriage drops dramatically (AFAIA), and given the level of development here I think this a key age. But given each one us made it from a 0-1wk embryo to term, there <i>is</i> a difficulty/danger in picking a particular stage to draw any lines around IMO...

    Andy




    --- Beware of 'all things being equal' - because very often they are not. ---
    --- Beware of \'all things being equal\' - because very often they are not. ---
  • Russell_johnRussell_john Posts: 602
    .. perhaps its more the church of the holy kiddie-fiddler worried about a diminishing congregation? Churches(ANY religion) and politics should be kept about as far away from eachother as is possible.

    Mercifully the church in this united kingdom is actually pretty spinlesss in more ways than one and so his words will I hope have little long term effect. Many people go through extraordinary levels of anguish in deciding to have an abortion. To suffer the additional moralizings of a gob****e who will never know what it is like to be a parent (assuming he keeps his orbs and septre to himself) and will never have more than a fleeting understanding of what it actually means to have an abortion, is just wrong.

    Nice to see the RC 'church' returning to what it does best: emotional blackmail wrapped guised as the moral 'right'.

    Perhaps they can get their own putrid house in order before they come preaching to the rest of us about morality.

    are they wibbin me Centurwion?
    are they wibbin me Centurwion?
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by papercorn2000</i>



    I'm more concerned with the fact that they have a voice in whether or not I am allowed to work in a sizerable minority of Scottish state schools despite my subjects having censored -all to do with their mumbo-jumbo and their church contributing next to naff-all to the running costs of said schools.

    God told me to skin you alive.
    http://www.ekroadclub.co.uk/
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    All of the parents of the pupils in Scottish Roman Catholic schools pay taxes and council tax like everyone else. The fact that we have so many means there is a need. If not the same parents could send their children to other schools and the RC schools would close due to lack of demand.

    Interestingly many are bursting at the seams due to demand, even from non-Catholics.

    Since you think it's mumbo jumbo you'd not want to work in one anyway.

    _____________________________________________________________________
    Be nice to grumpy old men (or else)
  • papercorn2000papercorn2000 Posts: 4,517
    I'd be more than happy to work in one, but I am barred because a virgin cross-dresser says so. I also pay the tax for running these divisive fomentors of religious suspicion.

    God told me to skin you alive.
    http://www.ekroadclub.co.uk/
    God told me to skin you alive.
    http://www.ekroadclub.co.uk/
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by papercorn2000</i>

    I'd be more than happy to work in one, but I am barred because a virgin cross-dresser says so. I also pay the tax for running these divisive fomentors of religious suspicion.

    God told me to skin you alive.
    http://www.ekroadclub.co.uk/
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    With such strongly held and expressed opinons against RC Schools, is it any surprise to you that you are not considered suitable?

    _____________________________________________________________________
    Be nice to grumpy old men (or else)
  • Joe SaccoJoe Sacco Posts: 4,907
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Patrick Stevens</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Joe Sacco</i>
    The period is irrelevant. What difference does it make to an unborn baby whether they are killed at 13 weeks or 30 weeks?
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    They are considerably more sentient at 30 weeks than at 13 weeks. While I am in favour of abortion, some of the details of procedures for late abortions make my stomach churn.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Great, as long as it being only 13 weeks makes you happy. Don't know if the person who would have been born would agree...
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Joe Sacco</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Great, as long as it being only 13 weeks makes you happy. Don't know if the person who would have been born would agree...
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I'm not happy about abortion ever. I accept, with some reluctance, that there are circumstances where a mother's right to choose whether she has a baby out weighs the rights of a foetus.
  • andyoxonandyoxon Posts: 2,205
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Russell_john</i>

    .. perhaps its more the church of the holy kiddie-fiddler worried about a diminishing congregation? Churches(ANY religion) and politics should be kept about as far away from eachother as is possible.

    Mercifully the church in this united kingdom is actually pretty spinlesss in more ways than one and so his words will I hope have little long term effect. Many people go through extraordinary levels of anguish in deciding to have an abortion. To suffer the additional moralizings of a gob****e who will never know what it is like to be a parent (assuming he keeps his orbs and septre to himself) and will never have more than a fleeting understanding of what it actually means to have an abortion, is just wrong.

    Nice to see the RC 'church' returning to what it does best: emotional blackmail wrapped guised as the moral 'right'.

    Perhaps they can get their own putrid house in order before they come preaching to the rest of us about morality.

    are they wibbin me Centurwion?
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I'm not RC, and think this kind of warning by the Rc church is in danger of seeming intolerant, and lacking in compassion - because for many who've had, or are contemplating having an abortion I sure it is or can be a time of great anguish. The consequences of having an abortion are irreversible and go against maternal instincts. But, 'the church should stay out of politics' seems simply to be a line used against a group of voters with which someone disagrees. Churchs, Christians etc are entitled to speak up on what they feel important - and with abortion there is arguably a strong element of basic human rights.

    --- Beware of 'all things being equal' - because very often they are not. ---
    --- Beware of \'all things being equal\' - because very often they are not. ---
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by papercorn2000</i>

    I'd be more than happy to work in one, but I am barred because a virgin cross-dresser says so. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that he's necessarily a virgin. [;)]
  • redcogsredcogs Posts: 3,232
    i don't really think that you can be considered to be properly and fully human until you begin to interact with others who are already in the world - following birth. So the idea that abortion equates to murder as some of the more lunatic religos suggest is 'off the wall'.

    i've no objection to abortion legislation being reformed to take into account medical and technological developments (which can enable the foetus to survive independently), but ultimately, the decision must remain with the mothers - as 'a womans right to choose', not with some oppressive pointy hatted medieval purveyor of the supernatural and false consciousness who don't occupy the real world.

    <font size="1">please look up to the stars.. </font id="size1"><font size="6"><font color="red">***</font id="red"></font id="size6">
    <font size="1">please look up to the stars.. </font id="size1"><font size="6"><font color="red">***</font id="red"></font id="size6">
  • Joe SaccoJoe Sacco Posts: 4,907
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by redcogs</i>

    i don't really think that you can be considered to be properly and fully human until you begin to interact with others who are already in the world - following birth. So the idea that abortion equates to murder as some of the more lunatic religos suggest is 'off the wall'.

    i've no objection to abortion legislation being reformed to take into account medical and technological developments (which can enable the foetus to survive independently), but ultimately, the decision must remain with the mothers - as 'a womans right to choose', not with some oppressive pointy hatted medieval purveyor of the supernatural and false consciousness who don't occupy the real world.

    <font size="1">please look up to the stars.. </font id="size1"><font size="6"><font color="red">***</font id="red"></font id="size6">
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    But when does a foetus become more like a baby? Can the mother decide she doesn't want the child when it is 6 months old and have it killed (think I know your answer!) so why can she decide when it is a bit younger?
  • redcogsredcogs Posts: 3,232
    Very few women embark on the serious step that abortion represents without being absolutely torn apart by guilt, and most take the regrettable step following serious and protracted consideration, which is as it should be.

    No one, especially males, should underestimate or trivialize the issues involved for the women facing abortion.

    <font size="1">please look up to the stars.. </font id="size1"><font size="6"><font color="red">***</font id="red"></font id="size6">
    <font size="1">please look up to the stars.. </font id="size1"><font size="6"><font color="red">***</font id="red"></font id="size6">
  • papercorn2000papercorn2000 Posts: 4,517
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by killiekosmos</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by papercorn2000</i>

    I'd be more than happy to work in one, but I am barred because a virgin cross-dresser says so. I also pay the tax for running these divisive fomentors of religious suspicion.

    God told me to skin you alive.
    http://www.ekroadclub.co.uk/
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    With such strongly held and expressed opinons against RC Schools, is it any surprise to you that you are not considered suitable?

    _____________________________________________________________________
    Be nice to grumpy old men (or else)
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    They are an anachronism in this day and age. The state provides sufficient (?) non-denominational schools. Why should one religion be singled out to receive state schooling according to their own rules?

    If a school refused to employ individuals on account of their colour or some type of infirmity, the people would be up in arms. Butit's OK to bar people from working in state funded schools on account of which religion (which may have nothing to do with their subject) they profess. As it is, in Scotland, we have the Proddy schools and the Tims schools. And we wonder why there is so much internecine hatred and bigotry in Scotland!

    God told me to skin you alive.
    http://www.ekroadclub.co.uk/
    God told me to skin you alive.
    http://www.ekroadclub.co.uk/
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